Do We Need Combos?

Big-Cat · Jan 19, 2013

In the L-Canceling thread, an assertion was made that combos are the worst thing to happen to a fighting game. Do you agree with this? Why or why not?

For some additional questions: Does Smash need combos. Should they be handled differently in Smash 4, and, if so, how?

-LzR- · Jan 19, 2013

Combos are excellent, as long as they aren't totally overdone, for example Marvel vs Capcom 3.

Wizzrobe · Jan 19, 2013

Definitely, combos are really important for a fighting game Imo.

Brawl was good despite combo's but even brawl had some 2-3 hit combos and chaingrabs.

Big-Cat · Jan 19, 2013

-LzR- said:
Combos are excellent, as long as they aren't totally overdone, for example Marvel vs Capcom 3.

This is pretty much where I stand. I think, ideally, a good balance is where you need two to three good combos to take out an opponent for a round, but the game is otherwise dependent on things like poking and other fundamentals.

I'd rather not see TOD combos or combos that take 45 seconds to do (looking at you Skullgirls).

Biz_R_0 · Jan 19, 2013

Do we need them? No. Would they be good if done correctly? Yes.

Personally I think SF4 had the perfect combo balance, where most practical combos were 200 at the most and even the really fancy crap didn't usually go past 400.

Big-Cat · Jan 19, 2013

That game took forever, and that's coming from someone who played it competitively for nearly three years. Not only that, but the game is ridiculously vortex heavy. It can be fun to play, but watching can be another story.

FlareHabanero · Jan 19, 2013

In general, I think combos should be implemented faster in the next game to get a sense of speed, but have options to cancel or prevent combos to prevent overwhelming imbalance.

El Duderino · Jan 19, 2013

If the day ever came when Smash purged any ability to combo, I wouldn't call it Smash anymore. I don't think it's possible to remove them further without severely damaging the gameplay.

Biz_R_0 · Jan 19, 2013

@Kuma I followed it competitively from Super to AE2012. I fell out of it because the game was way too ground based for me and I wasn't interested in the tournaments anymore. What do you mean by vortex heavy?

Big-Cat · Jan 19, 2013

Biz_R_0 said:
@Kuma I followed it competitively from Super to AE2012. I fell out of it because the game was way too ground based for me and I wasn't interested in the tournaments anymore. What do you mean by vortex heavy?

Get the knockdown and start doing mixups to rack up damage and keep the opponent down.

Biz_R_0 · Jan 19, 2013

Oh, that too. I feel as if that wouldn't be a problem if the air wasn't such a death zone.

Sid-cada · Jan 19, 2013

http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/kidicarus/0/1
The link here comes from an Iwata Asks with Sakurai. If anything, I think it shows that he doesn't really like combos too complex, preferring a more "ad-lib" style.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Jan 19, 2013

Its nice we have smash games which shows us the extremes.

Smash64 had legitimate inescapable, 0% to death combos.
Brawl was the almost exact opposite. Most hits in the game will never lead into another guaranteed attack at any percent.

With brawl, a competitive scene did develop for it despite not being combo heavy. If anything, we see that the game becomes much more dependent on winning every single engagement instead of winning on a single engagement and getting free hits off of it.

However, we do know there was a general split between brawl and melee. Why? In part I believe its because Combos were largely removed. There is something very satisfying about continual hits and leading a combo into a KO. Its gets hype tournaments when such things happens and is enjoyable to the person getting the combo.

Being too combo heavy is not enjoyable either. Smash64 is the scapegoat on this one. Most high level matches in smash64 I come across are many one hit deaths. This to me is really depressing to play in a match on the receiving end. Make one mistake and you lose a stock.

In the end, I think melee does this very well. It gives you the opportunity for combos, but most are not 0% to death. Even if they are you do have mechanics that allow for some mix-up on the defensive end that leads to many improvised combos and keeps it interesting. Even then, a combo can be dropped quite often making the game a bit more forgiving on mistakes.

Biz_R_0 · Jan 19, 2013

I think Melee's are fine, but there were other parts about Melee that made off-stage combos OP (mainly universal poor recovery and how easy edgeguarding was). If they keep Brawl's auto-target ledges and good recovery on most characters, I'd be all for Melee's hitstun.

edit: I might as well address the comment the OP is referring to (that was me); I meant that so many fighting games have such broken combos that you only need to connect once or twice to win. This wouldn't be a problem if SFII's hitstun worked properly, and I'd rather have no combos than hate games like Marvel that I'd probably love without the aforementioned problem. I don't hate combos, though.

Big-Cat · Jan 19, 2013

Worked properly? How do you want it to work? Very little hitstun?

And the genre is most definitely not entirely tech skill based. The amount of strategy in most of these games is rather high AND you're usually having to think on the fly.

Biz_R_0 · Jan 19, 2013

Removing the tech skill thing because I'd just rather not argue about it.

What I meant was that SFII wasn't actually supposed to have combos, and if it didn't we wouldn't have so many MvCs. I already said that I think SF4 hitstun is the closest I can think of for what I want a traditional fighter to be (except, instead of linking, the speed of moves and inflicted hitstun are tooled for comboability), and Melee's is around where I'd want Smash to be.

Big-Cat · Jan 19, 2013

So many MvCs? Please, tell me how many games consistently have touch of death combos that doesn't consist of combo video material?

And I still think SF4 is much more boring than other games.

Biz_R_0 · Jan 19, 2013

You clearly want to argue (which would already be a reason not to reply), and it's an argument that I can't win. Not because you're right but because you're setting an incredibly high standard for me that's way more than you yourself would have to put into the discussion. What you would have me do is go through a ton of actual tournament footage and then find an incredibly large amount of things to prove my point, just so you can't call cherry picking. And then, even if I do fulfill those requirements, what is and isn't acceptable evidence would be entirely up to you, and you can say that none of it counts for no reason because you set yourself as the judge.

I've been in these situations before, I'd rather not be in one again.

Also, other games aren't Smash Bros. where you can DI and stuff. Anything that works in the combo room can definitely be applied to the actual game. Even the flashy stuff that you claim they're all full of, although more practical combos would probably do more damage anyway.

I am inside of the thread previous to it becoming dedicated to arguing about my opinion (actually it kinda already is).

Big-Cat · Jan 19, 2013

What you think this is a personal attack towards you? It's that kind of pretension that riles people up. In other words, your prediction is only ticking me off as it would be making prejudice of me.

To make some serious comparisons, I'm going to pull up some random match videos of Tekken, BlazBlue, and Virtua Fighter. These videos were chosen randomly.

This argument is not so much arguing about your opinion more is it a design decision standpoint.

Biz_R_0 · Jan 19, 2013

KumaOso said:
What you think this is a personal attack towards you? It's that kind of pretension that riles people up. In other words, your prediction is only ticking me off as it would be making prejudice of me.

I never said or implied any of that, I was saying that your tone was that of someone looking for an argument, and that you, intentional or not, put yourself in a position where you could easily wave away anything I said. That's just you taking things negatively and then blaming me for your emotions.

KumaOso said:
To make some serious comparisons, I'm going to pull up some random match videos of Tekken, BlazBlue, and Virtua Fighter. These videos were chosen randomly.

The problem with actual combat videos is that you don't know how good they are or how good their execution is. With combo videos, that's not a problem, all that really matters is what can combo into what. Also, Blazblue is offensive to all of my senses so I really couldn't judge that well.

Big-Cat · Jan 19, 2013

I'm just going to ignore the first part before this gets stupid.

The problem with your argument is that you're not taking the human psyche into account. When it comes to combo videos, they are separated from adrenaline and the need to improv. You can rehearse the motions over and over without any worries or you just need to pull the whole thing once for the video. In an actual match, you've got a lot to think of such as stage positioning, risk:reward, health, etc. Let's not forget that some combos require counter hits to be doable. This is why combos from combo videos rarely show up in an actual match.

Biz_R_0 · Jan 20, 2013

Stage positioning isn't really a big deal if the combo video shows a ton of ways to do relatively the same amount of damage, and risk/reward and health aren't problems if combos are so goddamn huge that you'd be at an advantage/win if you connect anyway. The problem is that they can be done and they cannot be stopped by the opponent once they begin, which means people are going to eventually find a way to implement it at higher levels of play. That's the thing about the top players; there's nothing they can't do that the game will allow.

PsychoIncarnate · Jan 20, 2013

My dog refuses to eat combos. And she eats EVERYTHING.

I think that is a pretty powerful message against them.

Ove · Jan 20, 2013

This is a difficult question and an excellent subject to discuss.

Basically, we all think differently depending on what we want to see in a fighting game. Some prefer gameplay heavy based on combos (MvC, as you have discussed), whilst others prefer mindgames, pokes and set-ups (SF).

To me, Smash is fighting game that is characterized by its freedom and stage control. To implement this in the gameplay, I suggest that the mechanics will be somewhere between SSB64 and Melee.

To evaluate, I really like the extended hit stun that we see in SSB64, it makes for some really interesing combos. On the other hand, that game is solely based on the "don't get hit" principle, which can evoke anger even to the best players. Melee, on the other hand, has less hit stun and a far more superior DI, making longer combos more difficult. Good DI enables the opponent to affect the situation, which is good, because that makes 0 % death combos very hard.

What I don't like about Melee is that at the lowest percentages, it's too hard to any combos at all. This means that you are forced to use a limited part of your moveset in the beginning. Doing an aerial, tilt or dash attack when your opponent has 0 % will almost be punished.

Also regarding mindgames and pokes: the tilts most be tweeked. In Melee and Brawl, they are, sadly, not so useful. I like the Ftilts that Fox (SSB64), Dr. Mario and Dedede have, because they are excellent tools to poke, and Pikachu's Utilt in SSB64 for combos. Luigi's Dtilt in SSB64 is great too, both for combos and mix-ups.

Like I said, somewhere in between Melee and SSB64 would be ideal. Keep or alternatively expand on the Melee DI and leave the hit stun prolonged, almost like SSB64. That way, we can have some interesting combo, while mindgames and pokes get a more important role.

Zhea · Jan 20, 2013

What I found appealing in melee's combos was the idea of DI. You and your opponent both play an active role in the combo, one of you trying to score the best positioning/percent/stock out of it while the other tries to mitigate those. I think this is why chain grabs are very frustrating to a lot of people. The lack of DI dependent combos is why smash 64 and brawl don't really appeal to me.

Hypercat-Z · Jan 20, 2013

-LzR- said:
Combos are excellent, as long as they aren't totally overdone, for example Marvel vs Capcom 3.

Or Killer Instinct. Do you remember that beam em' up so unbalanced forward combos?

grizby2 · Jan 20, 2013

Hypercat-Z said:
Or Killer Instinct. Do you remember that beam em' up so unbalanced forward combos?

thats the ONLY game with REAL combos imo.

but hey, even then, there were combo breakers in that game.

Mr.Jackpot · Jan 20, 2013

These Smash 4 threads keep getting worse and worse.

Big-Cat · Jan 20, 2013

Ove said:
Like I said, somewhere in between Melee and SSB64 would be ideal. Keep or alternatively expand on the Melee DI and leave the hit stun prolonged, almost like SSB64. That way, we can have some interesting combo, while mindgames and pokes get a more important role.

Though you know where I stand on DI as it is, this wouldn't be so bad just so long as the combos mostly flow. There still needs to be that balance between aerial and ground combat. Things like antiairs and vertical zoning (see Salem in Brawl's APEX 2013 grand finals) are still aspects that haven't been explored enough.

Ove · Jan 20, 2013

KumaOso said:
Though you know where I stand on DI as it is, this wouldn't be so bad just so long as the combos mostly flow. There still needs to be that balance between aerial and ground combat. Things like antiairs and vertical zoning (see Salem in Brawl's APEX 2013 grand finals) are still aspects that haven't been explored enough.

Agree. To be honest, I don't know how the DI should work for the ideal results. But flowing combos are necessary and right now, Smash needs to find a better balance between ground game and air game. I think that Smash is too much based on air game right now.

I watched Apex and I think that Salem was amazing. His playstyle is unique and it worked out great. The zoning and usage of the plasma beam/whip was just excellent.

Anti-airs is something Smash needs for this balance to occur. Also, they mustn't be afriad of implementing some grab based movesets. I think that a diverse character roster with different playstyles is important in order to create a dynamic fighting game that lasts longer and is more enjoyable.

Big-Cat · Jan 20, 2013

Ove said:
Agree. To be honest, I don't know how the DI should work for the ideal results. But flowing combos are necessary and right now, Smash needs to find a better balance between ground game and air game. I think that Smash is too much based on air game right now.

I watched Apex and I think that Salem was amazing. His playstyle is unique and it worked out great. The zoning and usage of the plasma beam/whip was just excellent.

Anti-airs is something Smash needs for this balance to occur. Also, they mustn't be afriad of implementing some grab based movesets. I think that a diverse character roster with different playstyles is important in order to create a dynamic fighting game that lasts longer and is more enjoyable.

Since we both seem to agree on this need for flowing combos, how do you propose this be done? I don't need some indepth response, just something.

My reference to Salem's zoning was his, IMO, ingenious use of Zamus' armor pieces to limit Meta Knight's approach from above. This is the kind of zoning that can really help make Smash more distinguished without resorting to gimmicks. Other than that, I didn't see much else of his zoning as I only watched half of the first match.

If we get grappler movesets, then we MUST have tech grabs available for normal throws. As I've said in other threads, the inability to tech command throws is what makes them frightening.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Jan 20, 2013

I'd rather have combos as long as they aren't death combos or MvC3.

El Duderino · Jan 20, 2013

Just to put the role of combos into perspective:

You can thank SFII for presenting the concept, and Hal Lab's for their own interpretation. Unless you have a problem with their inclusion from Smash's inception, there's no reason be against combos. Plenty of fighting games do get carried away with them, but Smash is not like most fighting games.

Ove · Jan 20, 2013

@KumaOso: I am sorry for my long replies, it seems that I get a bit carried away. I'll try to keep it short.

Yes, the armor pieces that Salem used was great, because Meta Knight lost a lot of options. However, I think he played Zamus geniously and kept MK at bay with excellent zoning. Armor piece for vertical approach and whip/plasma for horizontal approach.

I think I need to think through a realistic idea regarding flowing combos. What do you think is the best solution? I think that the problem is that due to too long ending lag and small hit stun (referring mainly to Brawl now), it is sometimes hard to follow up a move with another that can actually lead to a combo. You basically lack a lot of combo options. In SSB64, you have a lot of time to position yourself and do an appropriate attack (this is thanks to the long hit stun.)

@El Duderino: The reason Smash doesn't get carried away with combos might be because they have never intended to focus on combos in the first place. I am not sure, but maybe they focused more on a FFA 4 player experience than a combo based gameplay à la traditional fighting games?

Big-Cat · Jan 20, 2013

Ove said:
I think I need to think through a realistic idea regarding flowing combos. What do you think is the best solution? I think that the problem is that due to too long ending lag and small hit stun (referring mainly to Brawl now), it is sometimes hard to follow up a move with another that can actually lead to a combo. You basically lack a lot of combo options. In SSB64, you have a lot of time to position yourself and do an appropriate attack (this is thanks to the long hit stun.)

I think the best approach is an approach that marries the aspects of 3D fighters with 2D ones. Have strings like 3D fighters (where not all are natural combos) combined with the cancelings of 2D fighters like special, jump, dash, etc. canceling. Seriously, high jump canceling would make the transition from ground to air combat much more natural.

The nice thing about Smash's gameplay system is that the knockback mostly prevents combos from being too long so you're working more for playing footsies for short combos while long combos are actually a series of short combos where you make the right read in between. This way, the ad lib aspect is maintained, but you're not forced to make constant guesses and speeds up the gameplay.

Ove · Jan 21, 2013

That sounds interesting. Although I don't prefer strings from 3D fighters, you might be onto something when combining them with typical 2D elements. I, too, think that cancels would work. But that essentially means a huge step away from the otherwise casual orientated playstyle (not necessarily a bad thing, but a controversial, nontheless.)

How about dash cancels from charging smash attacks? It doesn't affect combos, but the mindgames can change dramatically. Imaging a tech chase where you throw down your opponent, charging a smash attack, but instead of releasing it (like it normally would), you could dash cancel out of it and regrab. Maybe it would be too broken?

Big-Cat · Jan 21, 2013

In regards to the casual oriented playstyle, I don't think casuals would be at a loss unless they stupidly think they can take on online players so easily. A lot of fighting games have casual followings after all. It's all a matter of packaging it.

Dash cancel smashes (DCS)? Theoretically, it COULD affect combos depending on how the system works. It could be balanced if the dash cancel required that you could not block for a certain amount of frames. It would also be an interesting way to change up pressure and escaping.

Biz_R_0 · Jan 21, 2013

@Ove I think it's balanced perfectly, if the air was OP then four of the top five characters wouldn't be almost completely ground based. IMO it's other fighting games (most notably the Street Fighter series) that are way too ground based, not letting you jump without getting horribly punished most of the time because you can't change momentum or block.

Ove · Jan 21, 2013

Biz_R_0 said:
@Ove I think it's balanced perfectly, if the air was OP then four of the top five characters wouldn't be almost completely ground based. IMO it's other fighting games (most notably the Street Fighter series) that are way too ground based, not letting you jump without getting horribly punished most of the time because you can't change momentum or block.

SSB64: top tier is Pikachu and all of his aerials are very useful. It uses aerials for the most part, the Uair and Nair are too good for combos. All long combos in this game constitutes of almost only aerials.

Melee: Fox is top tier. Although his best attack, the shine, is ground based, it is at its best when canceled into an aerial for pressure. His Bair and Nair are good too. In Melee, just like SSB64, you can reduce the ending lag of your aerials, making them much better then the ground based moves.

Brawl: I agree that Brawl is more ground based, but that's mostly because of the shield that's too strong.

I guess you are right with your SF analysis. Undoubtely, the air is a more dangorous zone, but some characters can actually have a hard time punish characters in the air (I am thinking of M.Bison, Vega and Chun-Li to some degree). The reason is simple: Anti-airs (which is something Smash lacks), predictable outcomes (like you said, most characters can't change momentum, in contrast to Smash) and you are completely vulnerable (in Smash, you have the option to air dodge).

Biz_R_0 · Jan 21, 2013

Brawl's shields aren't that great, and they're certainly not universally better.

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