Advantage Stages and Counter Stages for Yoshi

yoshmaster5 · Sep 5, 2004

For me, I really can't figure out what stages Yoshi is best on and worst on. I play Peach's Castle and PKMN Stadium, but I really don't know what gives Yoshi a major advantage Stage-wise. I really pick those two because Yoshi has a godly area to Egg-spam.

Can anyone give some advice?

rmusgrave · Sep 6, 2004

Hmm, I've been thinking a lot about this, and I've had trouble thinking of good counter stages for Yoshi. I'll agree with you yoshmaster, any place that's useful for Egg Spam is good for Yoshi. However, I think the best counter stages with Yoshi would be the stage that your opponent is worst on. I.e. if versing Shiek go Final Destination, if versing Falco go Dreamland N64.

Of course, I'd like to see other people's opinions and strategies, because this is one area of Yoshi I'm not confident on.

vincit · Sep 7, 2004

. . . . . . . . .

Unrefined · Sep 7, 2004

I personally hate Stages like Onett and Mushroom Kingdom I-II, stages that arent platforms, there are others (ICM, Flat Zone..etc etc), so if you are knocked far away, you have no recovery since the stage runs all the way out to the line between life and death as i call it. Yoshi has a nice recovery and it goes to waste on those boards, plus, Yoshi has a great spike, cant use it on those boards either.

the sideburns · Sep 7, 2004

correction: yoshi has TWO great spikes. fair and dair. don't forget it!

rmusgrave · Sep 7, 2004

Originally posted by the sideburns
correction: yoshi has TWO great spikes. fair and dair. don't forget it!

Lol, I'm leaning toward dair being the better spike, although harder to hit with. If you dair them down to the bottom of Yoshi's recovery on a level like Dreamland 64 almost everyone has no chance of coming back. :chuckle:

It's cool.

In reference to the stage picking, I'm pretty sure that Final Destination and Dreamland 64 are the best for Yoshi, with Pokemon Stadium and Corneria close behind. However, you need to make sure that your opponent's character doesn't have an advantage on the stage you choose.

DoH · Dec 30, 2004

What about Rainbow Cruise?

or Jungle Japes (the one with the river)?

Straight · Dec 31, 2004

I personally think that pokemon stadium is yoshi's best stage (At least i think mine is). Although I usually pick the stage that my opponents character is bad in or does not have an advantage in. ie falco on fd because of his laser spam.

rmusgrave · Jan 24, 2005

My counter stages

Well, I've been thinking alot about counter stages with Yoshi recently, in light of @M coming up soon. Here's my little list.

Broken: Corneria

Ledge cancelled eggs RULE!!! I beat Peach consistently on this level. Uberfied egg spam plus nearly staying invincible while doing it. Also, you can drop down from the fin tip and keep the invincibility from grabbing it, allowing you to go through attacks.

Against characters with bad recoveries: (Falco, Doc etc)

Dreamland 64, (any more suggestions?)

Large distances to the walls and ceiling of this level make Yoshi really good here. His good recovery and fantastic weight stop allow him to survive longer than usual, an advantage that such characters do not get.

Against characters with good recoveries: (Peach, Jigglypuff)

Yoshi's Story (any suggestions here too?):

Basically the opposite of the dreamland counter. Since these characters can use large recovery distance to their advantage better than Yoshi can, it's best to use the opposite to counter them. Low ceilings are also really useful, since characters in this category are often floaty and light weight.

Against characters with decent recoveries: (Link, Y.Link etc)

Err, no idea. Haven't had that problem come up yet =P.

Aside from these character specific counter stages, Yoshi tends to play well on Pokemon stadium, Final Destination and Fountain of Dreams. (Or at least mine does =D)

So, anyone have anything else to add? This is still a rather iffy subject for me, so anyone else's opinions are more than welcome.

Unrefined · Jan 24, 2005

I hate Yoshi's story vs characters with good KO moves, like a fair from falcon or a tip from marth, upsmash from fox and pikachu, you will just die soo easily. But vs peach, its small and can use the platforms to your advantage, as i stated in another topic i like getting peach above me, staying on the platforms almost forces her to go airborne unless shes a coward, like most are and play Defense. It's a double edged sword, you can KO quick but so can some opponents.

Corneria is my best Yoshi stage, the ledge rocks for eggs, its true.

FD is mixed, while its a good yoshi stage, i feel its a better stage for alot of characters, Samus/Link/Falcon.

Good stage vs Samus/Link/Y.Link with their hookshot/grapple beam recovery is Battlefield, since they cant hookshot onto it easily since only the ledge is within reach as the board concaves in underneath.

AmishTechnology · Jan 24, 2005

I don't like these stages with Yoshi:

- Mute City
- The ICs' Stage
- Flat Zone
- Both MKs

gothieboy101 · Feb 13, 2005

battlefeilds the best stage for egg spamming
:newbie:

rmusgrave · Feb 18, 2005

Ok, back from the @M tournament. (4th, w00t)

Turns out Corneria is a good counter-stage for some people, but not broken like I originally thought. If they can't cope with the 'invincibility dancing' as I call it, then it's good. However, you simply have better stages to counter stage with. It is worse against characters that can use wall jumping and fast jumps like Falco and Sheik to their advantage, to break your ledge eggs.

Either that, or I need to work on my mind games for invinciblity dancing >_>

th0rn · Feb 20, 2005

I like 'Final Destination' IMO because it gives you a lot of opportunity to pull off different combos. It's also easier for aerial attacks and edge guarding like fair and dair.

Shiri · Apr 17, 2006

I'm bumping this.

I want to see if, after a whole year of Yoshi getting better and better, people feel differently about Yoshi's stage selections. It's funny. I've never really put a lot of thought into stages with Yoshi and I prided myself on the fact that I was confident on almost any stage (except Battlefield). However, I played Mow the other day and he asked me, "What's a good Yoshi stage?" I just looked at him blankly and told him what stages I personally preferred, since I had no idea where Yoshi had the advantage.

I do like the idea of picking stages where the other character is at a disadvantage, but I'd really like to hear about which stages people feel really give Yoshi a head-and-shoulders boost. Thanks.

Rob_Gambino · Apr 17, 2006

Tacoom likes pokefloats if I remember correctly.

BETA · Apr 17, 2006

For some reason, I don't know why, my best level is Fountain of Dreams.

I'll have to disagree with Yoshi's Story being an Advantadge stage. Although the cloud can give you compensation for not having a 3rd jump, your enemies, who do have a 3rd jump, can also use the cloud. The cloud can goof up your edge cancelled eggs, and the triangular platforms shield the enemy from them, making it the least practical tourney-level stage in the game to use them. The cloud can also prevent you from being able to grab onto the edge if timed poorly, making you extremely vulnerable to an edgeguard.

And if you want to argue the best stage for eggspamming, it's the Super Mario Bros. 2 stage. FOUR (count em!) points to do it, and the logs can save you from death when you miss them, even though they can screw them up. Unless you're talking about tourney-level stages, this level is the best for edge-cancelled eggs in my opinion.

rmusgrave · Apr 19, 2006

One of the main reasons I like FoD and YS is because of egg spam. One thing I don't like about FD is that if you edge egg, your opponent can just sit back. They can't do this on YS or FoD, and if your accuracy is good you can hit them almost anywhere on the stage from the edge.

I believe Tacoom likes Pokefloats for egg spam too, just because there are some very nice angles you can throw eggs from and to on that level, and if you have good knowledge of where pokemon appear, you won't die stupidly.

I think if you ask Svampen, he'd say that DL64 is a good Yoshi counterpick stage, and I tend to agree with him in most cases. Can't really complain about Yoshi surviving to 200% or so each stock =P

So yeah, there's my random babblings about stages. ^_^

InterimOfZeal · Apr 21, 2006

Omar, FD against Sheik? Chainthrowing would hurt you more, wouldn't it? I agree with DL64 against Falco, but I don't know why you say FD for Sheik.

Also, didn't you play against CJ once?

thefusion · Apr 22, 2006

What about Yoshi vs. Yoshi? Do you go for Yoshi's best or worst map? What do you recommend?

Saur · Apr 22, 2006

For a ditto I'd go for whatever map you're most familiar with.

Obviously both yoshis will be equally hampered/aided by whichever map you choose. Your advantages and weaknesses are his; his, yours. Whatever you could do to him, he could do to you. The only variable is the individual player.

Far more than stage choice, it boils down to straight, no holds barred prehistoric combat. Rawr.

At least that's my opinion. I'd pick FD for such a battle, though--feels more epic. ^_^

Metà · Apr 22, 2006

I don't really play Yoshi that much, but when I counterpick, I try to pick courses that no one expects, like Rainbow Cruise, or Yoshi's Island. I almost always counterpick on YI, but still, people hate it and suck at it. This gives me a major experience advantage. I tend to stay around the middl e and try to get people to kill themselves in the pit. This works well against fast-fallers like Fox and Falco, people with laggy dairs like Marth, or C Falcon/Ganondorf (OMG B-SMASH). Also, it works well for Yoshi, because he can eggroll across the entire level and kill people off the left easily with his D-smash (I don't believe in egg-spamming much). It's kinda funny though, because I play Falco, and it messes him up, since it's hard to SHB and it's easy to SD with SHFFL dairs. Also, the blocks make it hard to pillar, but I do well anyways since I play on it a lot.

Saur · Apr 22, 2006

^^^^ Oh shoot, that's a pretty good idea. I remember when I first learned shffling and would try it out in ffa against my recreational-smash friends, I'd die on that stage ffing nairs in the middle blocks and lose (especially with fox/falco) x_X

But yeah, since those days I've forgotten that stage exists... Heh, I might start training on that stage with yoshi (careful with the djc nairs in the middle!). Sheer experience could make it an awesome counterpick stage. And the fact that it's "YOSHI'S" island makes it even sweeter--like playing at your home field, hehe.

Metà · Apr 22, 2006

Yeah, don't overlook the odd courses. My friend counterpicks on Big Blue

Another one to try is Icicle Mtn. Since Yoshi has a great third jump, he has no problem climging the stage, and Dsmash = pwnage. Try it out some time! :laugh:

rmusgrave · Apr 23, 2006

Who's Omar?

The only Omar I know of is in Gabe's crew, and he plays Sheik >_>

Saur · Apr 23, 2006

Hmm... aren't Icicle Mtn and big blue usually banned at tourneys, though? Eh, I suppose it depends on which tourney. I don't recall Yoshi's Island (with the blocks) whether that was banned or not. I didn't think so, though.

In any case, I still like your idea of getting better at overlooked stages.

Metà · Apr 24, 2006

Usually, if both players agree, you can play on banned stages. And most stages aren't banned, they're just not in the random picks (but can be chosen as counter-picks). No one's ever rejected YI for me. EVER.

Shiri · Apr 24, 2006

I don't know about that whole banned stages thing, but I do have a question for everyone.

What do you guys think about Mute City? Not necessarily as a counterpick or anything, but just as a general stage pick for Yoshi. I'm kinda torn because the stage is deceivingly wide and let's Yoshi use every drop of his recovery except one: his ledgegames. There are not edges to make use of on this stage, and I think that may be enough to possibly even use this stage as a couterpick against Yoshi. I think there are only so many ways you can mindgame Egg Rolls and air dodges to recover onto the main platform before your opponent gets wind of what to do...especially a swordsman.

What do you guys think?

rmusgrave · Apr 24, 2006

I like the level personally. You do lose the ability to do your edgegame, but you have so many other options on this level. Falling under the main platform, then DJing up through it to either attack or dodge their attack can be pretty sexy. There's also the fact that if you've already lost your DJ, you can just land on the moving ground underneath the main platform and get hit upwards, regaining your DJ. Many times I've just done a down B onto that because I get my DJ back.

Personally, I don't think it's a bad stage for Yoshi. The only problem you get is that there isn't much room to sit back and egg spam on the main platform, so while riding that you'll have to come up with some different ideas.

The Krogodile · Apr 25, 2006

i decided to start whoring smashboards again : )
well, against pretty much any character i gor for mute city, and, i know what yall thinking, mute city is **** for yoshi cause you cant edge spam or anything like that, but i think it's cause my strategy is based mostly on d tilt, which totally owns here, you can get the of the satge from anywhere with like 2 d-tilts. and d tilt totally pwns with no edge for them to grab onto. this is an especially good counter pick against falco. no room to short hop laser, no ledge to prevent you from cheap d tilt kills, and the level changes screw over pillars.

phish-it · Apr 25, 2006

^^ woah, I never looked at it that way, Yoshi is a broken character!

Shiri · Apr 29, 2006

Okay, so here's another question for you guys (...again? Yes, again).

I think most Yoshi players past and present agree that stages such as Onett and/or Green Greens don't let our man take full advantage of his recovery skills. The relatively low ceilings and extremely close horizontal borders along with lack of room for forward-air KOs (meteors) all leave something to be desired as a stage pick.

However, how do you guys think Yoshi does on these stages (Onett, especially, if not exclusively) against other DJers? I'm speaking of Ness, Peach, and Mewtwo. These are all characters with remarkable DJs that most of their basic recovery strategies depend on. Even though Peach has a lot more going for her than the other two, I'll still put her in here just in case we all learn something new in the process here. Do you think picking a stage that holds both fighters at somewhat of a mutual 'disadvantage,' in the sense of recovery becoming less of a priority, gives Yoshi the advantage in other areas such as defense, tactics, KO ability, etc?

I hope this made sense. If it doesn't, I'll try to edit this into something more readable later.

BETA · Apr 30, 2006

phish-it said:
^^ woah, I never looked at it that way, Yoshi is a broken character!

Yep, for every single tournament that only lets you play on Mute City, Yoshi is broken.

And I still go by what I said about Yoshi's Story. Yesterday as I was practicing, I tried to ECE as the cloud came under me. I ended up jumping off of it normally, then hitting the double jump as I took out an egg, which cancelled the double jump, then falling to my death.

Fountain of Dreams when the platforms are down = mad ECE game :D

The Krogodile · Apr 30, 2006

after playing again yesterday, i have to say that battlefield i one of the best stages for yoshi. first off, yoshi does ok there, everyone else does worse cause of the wierd ledges. also, the platforms are the perfect height for yoshi's up smash to get over, it always seems to take people by surprize, actually, the ledges are great height for all of yoshis stuff, i think im gonna start counterpicking to there except against falcos, mute city for them : )

Rob_Gambino · Apr 30, 2006

I die to that stupid ledge myself as Yoshi on battlefield, but if you can prevent it, go for it. Oh yeah, and I don't advise doing that to a Marth. He is too good on that level.

The Krogodile · Apr 30, 2006

nah, marth is another mute city guy for me, anyone that can be punished by d tilt i take to mute city, which is for the most part just flaco and marth, there are some others, but they arent as bad off as marth or falco

supernova63 · May 7, 2006

im samus and friend is yoshi which stage should i pick?

Rob_Gambino · May 7, 2006

You should pick final destination or dreamland 64. You may also pick pokemon stadium if you're good enough with the projectiles.

Shiri · May 8, 2006

I will agree with Rob on his first two picks. Yoshi needs lots of space to operate, I think.

Plus, you get to have fun powershielding junk on the bigger stages.

I personally disapprove of PokéStadium simply because I suffer tremendous up-air abuse from Samus with all the different platforms the stage generates over time. I think it's very incovenient for my play style, but that's just me.

Hmmm...kinda wanna delete this whooooole thing. 9_9

Bloshi · May 14, 2006

My Yoshi <3 Corneria because of the fin ledge and the wall. The ledge lets you do all the eggs you want with threat of SD, and the wall sets up some nasty comboes involving jabs and d-tilts.

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