Waveshining out of sheild- yet another opening to start infinites...

Waveshining out of Sheild

As all competitive smashers know, you can jump out of sheild into any aerial or B attack simply by pressing up/x/y while sheilding, then attacking immediatley after. In fact, many characters take advantage of their quick up-b moves by jc-ing them out of sheild after blocking an attack (i.e. samus, marth, doc, link, etc...).

When you jump cancel your sheild into an A attack, you will always do an aerial (unless you upsmash out of sheild), however if you jc sheild and execute a B attack at the soonest possible frame, your character will do the attack on the ground, rather than in the air.

The big question is: What does this mean to fox/falco users?

Simply put, if you are fast enough you can jump cancel sheild into a shine without leaving the ground, making fox's shine one of the fastest moves out of sheild in the game (5 frames to activate) Falco's shine out of sheild is 2 frames slower due to his jumping start-up lag of six frames. After landing the shine (without leaving the ground) you can wavedash into any shine combo, including infinites...

How to do it:

With fox:

While sheilding, jump with X/Y/up on control stick, then press down and B exactly during the 4th frame after leaving the ground

with Falco:

While sheilding, jump with X/Y/up on control stick, then press down and B exactly during the 6th frame after leaving the ground

If you do this properly it will apear is if your sheild changes into a reflector while your character remains on the ground. You can then wavedash out of the shine.

**Note: you are best off using x or y to jump cancel while doing this technique as it is impossibly hard to do this with the control stick


If you can consistently jump cancel sheild into a shine without leaving the ground, you will be able to further abuse the speed/priority/1337-ness of fox/falco's shine. While this is immensly difficult to master (especially with fox) it can prove to be very useful as a method of edgegaurding (with fox, you can block a opponent's up b and then shine spike an opponent out of sheild) or as a combo starter/interuuptor (if your sheild is getting pillar-ed in a falco ditto, you can shine out of sheild and hopefully start a combo of your own).

**Note: My frame data may be inaccurate as i was unable to contact Mew2King, aka Dr. Smash while i wrote this. If you can prove any innacuracies within my frame analysis, please post corrections

You don't need to wait until the 4th/6th frame for Fox and Falco respectively. You actually have to shine before that, or else you'll be in the air (Fox's jump has him in the air on frame 4, and on frame 6 for Falco). So shine within 3.99 frames after pressing jump, however since the game registers button presses 1 frame after, you actually have 2.99 frames.

This is commonly known (I believe). It's basically the same as infinite jump-cancelled shine, except with a shield.

Ragnarok91 said:

You don't need to wait until the 4th/6th frame for Fox and Falco respectively. You actually have to shine before that, or else you'll be in the air (Fox's jump has him in the air on frame 4, and on frame 6 for Falco). So shine within 3.99 frames after pressing jump, however since the game registers button presses 1 frame after, you actually have 2.99 frames.

This is commonly known (I believe). It's basically the same as infinite jump-cancelled shine, except with a shield.

Click to expand...

no, i'm sure that you need to wait until the 4th/6th frame. i think i've said this before--try cancelling your jump with a grab, and you'll see that there's a small window for you to do it in. as long as you hit Z before frame 4, it'll work. then try cancelling your jump with a shine. it's much harder, meaning that there's probably only one specific frame you have to press B, the 4th frame. I'm not absolutely 100% sure on this, i guess i'll fiddle around in 1/4th mode next time i turn on the cube just to make sure. or i guess SDM would know too.

anyways, a one-frame window is too hard for me to time, which is why i dont really cancel my jumps with shines that much.

someone posted about this quite a while ago and named it shineshield or something like that.

DDRKirby(ISQ) said:

no, i'm sure that you need to wait until the 4th/6th frame. i think i've said this before--try cancelling your jump with a grab, and you'll see that there's a small window for you to do it in. as long as you hit Z before frame 4, it'll work. then try cancelling your jump with a shine. it's much harder, meaning that there's probably only one specific frame you have to press B, the 4th frame. I'm not absolutely 100% sure on this, i guess i'll fiddle around in 1/4th mode next time i turn on the cube just to make sure. or i guess SDM would know too.

anyways, a one-frame window is too hard for me to time, which is why i dont really cancel my jumps with shines that much.

Click to expand...

No, you have to hit Z before frame 3 to do a jc-grab, like I said. The game takes 1 frame to react to your button presses, it's not instant-fast-haxly-calculating-speed-of-doom you know.

JC shine is the exact same thing, you probably just think it's harder because you have to jump and press down+b fast, instead of just Z. Fiddling around on 1/4 speed for frame data = phfail. Mew2King's stats = win. Notice I spelt phfail with both ph AND f. That's pretty bad.

Ragnarok91 said:

You don't need to wait until the 4th/6th frame for Fox and Falco respectively. You actually have to shine before that, or else you'll be in the air (Fox's jump has him in the air on frame 4, and on frame 6 for Falco). So shine within 3.99 frames after pressing jump, however since the game registers button presses 1 frame after, you actually have 2.99 frames.

This is commonly known (I believe). It's basically the same as infinite jump-cancelled shine, except with a shield.

Click to expand...

The point of this post was not to expose a new technique; I am quite aware that people knew that waveshining out of sheild was possible before i made this topic.

Up until recently, some of fox's most technical maneuvers were thought to be impossible, or too difficult to be used consistently. However, as the top fox players keep raising the bar techwise, i felt that it would be appropriate to discuss this as yet another way to take advantage of fox's shine so I made a post about it. Who knows; maybe we may reach a point where some of the top players can use this technique consistently -people used to think that infinite-drillshining was way too dificult to be used in battle, but now most good foxes can do it.

ouch.

i only thought so because there have been many times where i =know= i've pressed B after Y, yet no shine comes out -at all-, i'll just jump. and I've =never= had that problem with JC'ed grabs--either i'll do the standing grab, or i'll press Z too late and i get an fair or something, but in either case -something- happens. however it's not consistent, i just tried it today and sometimes i would get that problem with the shine and sometimes i wouldn't, even though i was using pretty much the same timing. uhhhhhh wtf?

and yes yes it's before frame 3, that was just stupidity on my part.

and i DO think it's harder. wouldn't you? =p

DDRKirby(ISQ) said:

ouch.

i only thought so because there have been many times where i =know= i've pressed B after Y, yet no shine comes out -at all-, i'll just jump. and I've =never= had that problem with JC'ed grabs--either i'll do the standing grab, or i'll press Z too late and i get an fair or something, but in either case -something- happens. however it's not consistent, i just tried it today and sometimes i would get that problem with the shine and sometimes i wouldn't, even though i was using pretty much the same timing. uhhhhhh wtf?

and yes yes it's before frame 3, that was just stupidity on my part.

and i DO think it's harder. wouldn't you? =p

Click to expand...

Of course it's harder, I can do infinite jc'd grabs anytime, but if I could infinite jc'd shine anytime then... my friends wouldn't play me anymore. Unless we're in a map without walls I guess. It's a lot harder to do jc'd shines because you have to move your right thumb from Y to B, while for jc'd grabs you can have your thumb jumping and your index on Z.

noob-lube69 said:

The point of this post was not to expose a new technique; I am quite aware that people knew that waveshining out of sheild was possible before i made this topic.

Up until recently, some of fox's most technical maneuvers were thought to be impossible, or too difficult to be used consistently. However, as the top fox players keep raising the bar techwise, i felt that it would be appropriate to discuss this as yet another way to take advantage of fox's shine so I made a post about it. Who knows; maybe we may reach a point where some of the top players can use this technique consistently -people used to think that infinite-drillshining was way too dificult to be used in battle, but now most good foxes can do it.

Click to expand...

Shining out of shield probably won't be used as often, seeing as a shieldgrab could combo into more things. The only use for this I can see is to start an infinite waveshine (to shinespike or to infinite (drill)shine against a wall). This could be used if you're shielding and they try to grab you I guess, but only if they have low grab range.

i've gotten a good handle on doing this, much more possible to start infinites i think

DDRKirby is right in saying that you have only a 1 frame window to shine. If you try to shine when you're still kneeling it won't do anything as opposed to JC'd grab or up smash.
You can only shine when you're in the air and you have to shine on the 1st possible frame or else you'll be too high.

Doublejumping and airdodging after the shine straight into the ground is not that hard to do and is still fast, even if you were slow on the shine. But if you want to wavedash towards your opponent it's much more difficult.

Doraki said:

DDRKirby is right in saying that you have only a 1 frame window to shine. If you try to shine when you're still kneeling it won't do anything as opposed to JC'd grab or up smash.
You can only shine when you're in the air and you have to shine on the 1st possible frame or else you'll be too high.

Doublejumping and airdodging after the shine straight into the ground is not that hard to do and is still fast, even if you were slow on the shine. But if you want to wavedash towards your opponent it's much more difficult.

Click to expand...

thanks for clearing that up. it certainly explains why i was having so much difficulty. I mean cancelling into a shine is supposed to be harder anyways because you have to move your thumb really fast, but that alone still shouldn't make it =that= hard.

yeah shine in the air->doublejump->airdodge into ground is kinda weird, you have to airdodge RIGHT after you doublejump, since dj'ing takes only 1 frame...

OMG 0_0
I'm going to practice more right away, this technique is über skillz

Can you do other attacks out of the sheild also? like a u-smash?
EDIT: I tried and it worked, but then you have to use the c-stick

id rather dair out of the sheild then star waveshining

There's another and maybe easier way to do it.

noob-lube69 said:

Waveshining out of Sheild

How to do it:

With fox:

While sheilding, jump with X/Y/up on control stick, then press down and B exactly during the 4th frame after leaving the ground

with Falco:

While sheilding, jump with X/Y/up on control stick, then press down and B exactly during the 6th frame after leaving the ground

Click to expand...

Dude, you can also use the C-stick to jump out of shield.
This way you don't have to be THAT fast to do it.
I use this with Fox.

How I do it: (I'll edit)

1.shield

My cpu freezed every time I edited the quote on top of this post so I'll have to continue in this 2nd post.

How I do it:

1. Shield
2. Tap up the C-stick to JC Shield (Now you should be DI'ing downward with your left thumb)
3.The tip of your right thumb will be extremely close to the B-button so press it!
4.Shine!

I recommend you to add this to your 1st post

.............later

um...and since when can people count frames while playing?

I always thought of that lol!

People normally do that to feel important or to give a more-less how fast you have to BE.

......later

krazyzyko said:

My cpu freezed every time I edited the quote on top of this post so I'll have to continue in this 2nd post.

How I do it:

1. Shield
2. Tap up the C-stick to JC Shield (Now you should be DI'ing downward with your left thumb)
3.The tip of your right thumb will be extremely close to the B-button so press it!
4.Shine!

I recommend you to add this to your 1st post

.............later

Click to expand...

haha, great method. I remember you postin this in another thread, i can do it every time now, but when i try to do it in a fight, I always get my hands confused, LOL. i dont JC with c-stick usually. Its only been a day since i started tryin this though. it really works wonders. ^^ (i would assume, lol) but if mastered(just shine out of shield, not this method) imagine doing thunders combo outta shiel, too good. Imbalanced? yes.

oo im gonna try that krazy

noob lube in your sig you typed "envy my", but i think it's "envy me"

I've been using the JC shine technique to some degree of consistancy (i.e. drill shine shine, etc...) w/ fox. It's a great idea for use as edgeguarding i'd never thought of using the shield-shine as an edgegaurd. Also it is way better to use y>b rather that c>b because c>b doesn't work while you're not in a shield, while y>b does. And in response to Rock Lobsta's comment about counting frames, I can almost do it, i can tell the difference between two durations varying only by one frame, but can't quite count them yet.

props krazyzyko. i did it on my first try. ty!

wow. this is amazing. quick! delete this thread.

Rock Lobsta said:

um...and since when can people count frames while playing?

Click to expand...

Ever since fighting games existed. Speedrunners do it all of the time for every genre.

omg ragnarok91 i love your sig LOL

wow this could be useful, thanks nub-lub

scotu said:

I've been using the JC shine technique to some degree of consistancy (i.e. drill shine shine, etc...) w/ fox. It's a great idea for use as edgeguarding i'd never thought of using the shield-shine as an edgegaurd. Also it is way better to use y>b rather that c>b because c>b doesn't work while you're not in a shield, while y>b does. And in response to Rock Lobsta's comment about counting frames, I can almost do it, i can tell the difference between two durations varying only by one frame, but can't quite count them yet.

Click to expand...

Scotu, you don't count, you have super frame vision.

Question: I'm having trouble with doing this after someone attacks my shield. What is the best way to account for hit lag when performing this move?

I've been able to do this for months cosisntently. I even asked slient wolf to put it in zelgandi when tey were asking for ideas, but he shot it down saying it was too easy.

is shine out of shield even much faster than shield grab though? doesn't seem like itd make a huge difference/be super good unless they were behind u and really close to u.

IMO the best choice is Y>B. Then, waveshine to grab. Good stuff.

hoopspr226 said:

is shine out of shield even much faster than shield grab though? doesn't seem like itd make a huge difference/be super good unless they were behind u and really close to u.

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uh.

if the question you're asking is if SHINE is FASTER THAN GRAB...

well, think about it a second. lmao

heheheh....love noobs

RaynEX said:

uh.

if the question you're asking is if SHINE is FASTER THAN GRAB...

well, think about it a second. lmao

Click to expand...

LMAO nice response... hahah

shine is like half a frame