Mario's Matchups! Updated May 15, 2007! Only missing Zelda!

Credit to Kevin(M) for cleaning this up.

Nearly complete, minor details need to be discussed, and anything I overlooked needs to be mentioned!

Match-Ups are mostly in order of difficulty:

In Mario's favor
Pichu
Roy
Ness
Pikachu
Young Link
Adult Link
Yoshi
Bowser
Kirby
G&W
Mewtwo

Dead Even-ish
Doctor Mario
Mario
DK

In opposition's favor
Luigi
Purin
Ganondorf
Fox
IC’s
Samus

Strongly in opposition's favor
Marth
Falco
Shiek
Peach

+s are obviously positive aspects in the match-up
-s are the negative aspects of the match-ups

Match-Ups In Mario's Favor

Pichu
+Mario has a very good combo game on Pichu
+Edgeguarded easily due to slow up B and laggy stuff
+Very easy to KO due to extremely light weight and comboability
+Pichu is the worst character in the game
+dthrow free move at like any percent
+Pichu can't KO worth jack
(If you really have to counterpick a Pichu, just go shiek on FD LOL. You shouldn't ever have trouble against a pichu. Just combo it to death cuz its so fat and dumb.)

Roy
+Mario's best combo game
+Easily ledgeguarded fo sho
+Roy is more KO ******** than Mario
+Easily KO'd
+CC game > Roy's shfflc game
(Counterpick Roy at either FD, Dreamland, or FoD. Its a simple matchup, and there arn't any stage specific advantages really)

Ness
+Ness has trouble escaping combos (slow jump, slow up-b, good comboing weight, no fast high priority moves)
+Very easily edgeguarded
+Ness is terrible
-I can't think of any disadvantages
(Counterpick battlefield if you have to, in order to counter his recovery. Or FoD, or FD. Whichever your more comfortable with)

Pikachu
+Good grab game
+Good combo game
+Chu is light
+Chu can be throw-chained
+Chu has a semi-predictable recovery
-Usmash kills Mario good
(Counterpick DL to counter the effects of pika's usmash)


Young Link
+Combo Game
+Light, thus easy to KO
+A straightforward recovery makes edgeguarding easier
+YL is garbage
(Counterpick FD, YL and AL rely on platform tricks alot)

Adult Link
+Cape Projectiles
+Easy to land launchers and grabs
+Easy, simple, repeatable combos
+Link can't juggle Mario very well
+Link can't edgeguard Mario very well
+Everything Link does results in a grab for Mario.
-Difficult to edgeguard
-Failed smash=grab
(Counterpick FD, YL and AL rely on platform tricks alot)


Yoshi
+VERY easy to combo into finishers
+VERY easy to ledgeguard
+Easy to score KOs in general
(Not sure where to counterpick. DL maybe?)


Bowser
+Bowser is kute
+Predictable recovery
+Combo game is excellent
+Grab game is extra good
-Boozer cute
-Fortress is hard to ledgeguard
-Solid ledgeguarding
(Counterpick FD or FoD. Combo heavy stages = even easier combos)

Kirby
+Kirby is really light, thus easy to KO
+A character as terrible as Kirby makes inability to combo not matter so much for Mario
+Easy to approach
-Difficult to combo
(Counterpick Yoshis for very easy KOs)

G&W
Note: This matchup is extremely boring, but in Mario's favor.
+Dthrow free move at any percent
+Easy to KO
+Easy to ledgeguard
(Counterpick Yoshis for very easy KOs)


Mewtwo
+Easy to combo
+Easy to KO
+Good grab game
-Slightly difficult to ledgeguard
(FD or FoD for heavy combos. Mewtwos owned by combos)

Match-Ups that are Dead Evenish

Doctor Mario]
+Fsmash outranges everything doc has
+/- Essentially an equal amount of combo powers
- Docs bair is too good for Mario, although Mario's isn't far behind.
-Docs cape can reach most sweetspots, it get's further under the ledge than Maio's does.
-Doc can grab the ledge from further away than Mario, but not enough to effect the whole match really.
(No real counterpicks)

Mario
+/- Not much too it, he's the same character...

DK
+Mario combos DK well
+Dthrow free hit works at like all percents
-WoP works good on Mario
(I cant think of any counterpicks)

Match-ups in Opposition's Favor

CF
+Good jab and grab game
+Decent combo game
+Very easy edgeguarding
-Falcon kills Mario easily with knee
-Falcon combos Mario VERY well
-Falcons speed makes him very hard to deal with
(FD for chainthrow, FoD for combos, DL for living long, where ever you are comfortable with. Stray from Pokemon Stadium)

Luigi
+Edgeguarding is fairly simple
-Difficult to combo
-Luigi's aerial priority negates combos frequently
-lives semi long if DI good
-Rushdown is difficult to handle
-When you try to aerial over his shield, he can scoot back due to bad traction and mkae you land in front of him.
(Yoshis or DL64. Or fox and any stage. xD)

Purin
+Purin is really light, thus easy to KO
-surpreme aerial mobility basically nullifies comboing
(Yoshis)

Ganondorf
+Amazing combo game
+Amazing ledgeguarding
-Extremely hard to kill
-Kills Mario easily
-Large aerial range makes approach difficult
(FD or FoD for teh comboz)

Fox
+Chainthrow 0-70
+Fairly easy to ledgeguard
-Fox combos Mario well
-Usmash kills Mario under 100%
-Excellent ledgeguarding
-Evades grabs well
-Spaces away from Mario well
(FD, DL, or FoD for Chainthrow, survival, and combos, respectively)

IC's
+When you only are dealing with popo, he is easy rack up percent on, deal with, and combo
-Mario has difficulty seperating IC's, and is consquently prone to infinites, CGs, and combos.
-ICs basically negate Mario's grab game
(I don't know much about this matchup, but uhhhh go with FD lol)

Samus
+Cape projectiles
+Good comboing
+Decent comboing
+Fsmash easily outprioritizes almost all of Samus' moves if spaced properly
-Samus lives long
-Semi-decent combo breaking
-Kills you easily
(FD, FoD, or DL. Don't worry about Samus living long, because you live just as long if you have good DI and recovery)


Match-ups Strongly in Opposition's Favor

Marth
-Hard to legeguard
-Combos are more often than not broken
-Kills Mario easily
-Chunky aerial range
-Range negates most approaches
(I'd say FD or DL for this one. The rest of the stages give Marth some fowl platform spacing setups.)

Falco
+Easy to edgeguard or 'money shot' because FireBird or whatever has no hitbox.
+Mario is hard to pillar combo so long as you don't attack the up tilt
+CG 0-70
-Falco's pressure makes grabs very hard to land
-Falco's pillaring makes it hard to attack falco at all
(DL64 gives you alot of running room from lasers, and is good for ledgeguarding. Also, Falcos recovery doesn't help him much here. Its just a good stage vs falco in general)

Shiek
+Verrrry good combo game. Like almost as fun as Ganon combos.
+Good CCC game on sheik
+Chainthrow 0-40(Maybe higher?)
-Range and speed > Mario's approach
-Good CCC game on Mario
(FD, as Shiek relys heavily on platforms)

Peach
+Cape projectiles
+Good Pseudo WoP game
+Decent comboing
-CCC negates almost all non grab related combo starters at early percents
-KOing is very difficult
-Melee attacks outrange and outclass Mario's
(I'd say FD)

The Stages

Stages: Neutral Stages (completed) Requested other Stages=
Blue = good overall counterpick with few acceptions
White = mostly neutral
Yellow = Mostly disadvantageous.

Each Review of the stage follows this format:
Brief write-up of the stage and why i like or dislike it.
Positive and Negative aspects.
Counterpick and against who

Neutral Stages: FINAL DESTINATION

FD is my favorite stage for most matchups with Mario. Against Space Animals, you have chainthrow, they become worse at ledgeguarding and comboing without platforms, and they become easier to combo. Characters like Falcon, Marth, Space animals, and Samus all get a little worse thanks to the flat terrain.


+Comboing works better vs everyone
+Hard matchups become more tolreable thanks to chainthrow, no platform tricks from platform-heavy characters.
-Platform combos are taken from you
-Laser camping happens more from Fox and Falco

Counterpick here against: Everyone but extremely skilled Falcos

Neutral Stages:DL64

This is my second counterpick stage. If FD gets striked, or I lose at FD, or if Dave's stupid rule is called into play, I counterpick either this or Mute City. Dreamland has a good center area for chaingrabs and combos, you can camp better here, and you don't die like ever. As my expereince goes, you shouldn't counterpick small stages unless you kill the enemy better than it kills you. So counterpicking even the likes of Samus here is a favorite option of mine because of the space to combo her and the ability to not die quickly. Basically FD but without chaingrabbing for you.

+Same as FD but without as much chainthrowing
*don't switch characters if you kill the opponent easier than they kill you. IE vs jigglypuff

Counterpick here vs: Anyone except peach and samus

Neutral Stages:Fountain of Dreams

Mario has very unique cancels and combos here. I think this may replace FD for me after I give it enough practice. DEFINITELY a good place to practice on.

+Very unique combo game
-No disadvantages

Neutral Stages:Yoshi's Story

Yoshi's isn't that bad, even vs Fox and other top-kill characters. . If you're good enough at evasion, comboing, and spacing, then you can kill Fox just as easily as he can kill you due to his low weight. Marth is **** sauce here though. You can also (in very rare circumstances) use the Up-B walljump glitch to save yourself here.

Samus can destroy Mario here because of her higher KO power. The only factor that is taken out of her live-long abilities here is her recovery, and she is still an extremely heavy and hard to combo kill-you machine.

+ Up-B walljump glitch
+Balances Mario's KO power with opponents thanks to the small blastlines
+ No glaring disadvantages
- Small blastline
- No glaring advantages


Don't counter here against: Fox, Falco, Marth, or Samus

Neutral Stagesokemon Stadium

This is the most neutral stage, imo. Don't counter here if opponent has the advantage. In fact, don't counter here at all, as there are better options, such as DL64 and FD. If neither of those is a good idea/possible though, pick either FoD, or this stage.

+No glaring advantages
-No glaring disadvantages

Don't counter here against: Fox, Falco, Falcon

Neutral Stages:BattleField

This is a pretty good stage, no really big downfalls, space animals have disadvantage here, Mario can add unique elements to his edgeguarding game, etc. Not really a good counterpick, but don't go switching characters if you get BF'd.

+Unique edgeguarding
+No glaring disadvantages
-No glaring advantages

Don't counter here: Period

DISCUSS! Intelligent posting please.

Wait, Mario only ***** Pichu? He barely has any matchups that are in his favor? What about against the other Lower tiered people? Doesn't he have an advantage over them? Well, except for Luigi. I think Sheik should be in the " Not in Mario's favor" section. If you crouch cancel a lot of Sheik's deadly attacks, maybe you can counter attack with attacks of your own. Sheik is also very easy to U air juggle. You can also block Sheik's needles in the air with your cape. Sheik's recovery is also a bit crappy too and you can even see where he is going to appear next if he has a name tag above him.


I think Bowser should be in the " Mario *****" section. Mario is simply too fast for Bowser. Mario can easily dodge or block Bowser's attacks, combo him, meteor him, and juggle. Mario has the biggest advantage over Bowser in Corneria because Bowser is so big that he will take all the hits from the Arwings and Mario won't. Mario can also pull off many tricks behind the fin too.


You forgot about Falco too. You should put him in the "Not in Mario's Favor" section. I think Mario has the least trouble with Falco. Although Falco's Pillar can be a threat to Mario, but with excellent timing, Mario can shield grab Falco during the Pillar and chain grab him. Falco's SHL maybe be a problem for Mario, but stages like Dreamland 64 or Battlefield gives Mario the advantage over Falco because Mario can avoid his lasers by jumping on the platforms. One of Mario's biggest weaknesses, like having ZERO KO attacks, doesn't matter anymore in a fight with Falco because his recovery is so horrible, Mario doesn't need KO power any more. Mario only needs to knock Falco off a few inches and its over.

Shiek is easily comboed sure, and if you uair into fsmash, she is boned. Unfortunatly, its hard to approach her. It isn't a **** matchup though, I guess your right so Ill move her up.

I didnt place ALOT of characters, because I dont have many opinions on matchups because I dont fight much.

I totally forgot falco existed though.
Falco VS Mario is probably in Mario's favor, provided you know what to do. Uthrow basically owns at all percents, leading into either a free downsmash, more up throws, an aerial, or a WD fsmash. However, Mario's approach is basically ***** by Falco's pillaring. (Btw, you can't simply time Falco's pillaring. If Falco pillars you correctly, it is literally impossible to shieldgrab him. So I guess you could sit around in your shield while he eats it, but it isn't going to get you far at all when you play pros. So yeah, probably slightly in favor of Mario.

Ganon vs Mario
I based the placement here off of where TT place Mario in the Ganon VS thread. I up until then thought that Mario had the advantage, but them realized that comboability doesn't really make the matchup. Ganon outranges Mario and kills him fairly easily. However Mario has alot of solid approachs and good combo game, so it evens out a little.

Bowser vs Mario
Mario certainly does **** the crap out of bowser actually. He has a really solid chainthrow and easy combo game. You dont even need to run or JC for chainthrowing. Mario's mobility is too good for bowser.

Marth Vs Mario
Mario has decent combo game on marth, and his spotdodge is pretty good for getting around things, but SHDF basically negates mario, lol. Range ruins combos alot, and it makes me sad. I dont know much about this matchup, I just dont like it. >_<

Luigi Vs Mario
Ugh. No good reasons again. So I think I'll remove the placement for Luigi and let people who know decide the placement.


I can only post about matchups I experience frequently, which are YL, Marth, Ganon, Bowser, Peach, CF, Luigi, Samus, Fox, Falco, and Mario. So other people will have to place the rest. >_<

Also keep giving input on if you think where I put certain characters is wrong, because it is indeed plausable.

MM, didn't you already do a topic like this before. . .?

I'll reserve this spot for my response later. . .but I'll just make a quick note here that Mario
DOES NOT **** Bowser in any way at all. That, and Mario doesn't really **** anyone. He has some matchups that are pretty even, but that's really as far as it goes, IMO.

I'll elaborate later.

Why wouldn't Mario **** Bowser? Mario is far too versitile and fast for Bowser. Bowser attacks can easily be dodged and blocked. His attacks are extremely laggy at the end too. Bowser can easily be U air juggled, he is incredibly fat, making him very easy to combo. He is too slow. Bowser can easily be hit by the sweet spotted part of Mario's F smash because he is so big.

The only good thing Bowser has is his Up B, some of his aerials, and edge guarding.

Lucky_Sharmz19 said:

The only good thing Bowser has is his Up B, some of his aerials, and edge guarding.

Click to expand...

Very true. . .except that you could go a bit further than that.

Bowser has some of the best edgeguarding in the game; flames screw up sweetspotting attempts, off-the-stage f-air/b-air hits (when successful) makes recovery virtually impossible, sweetspotted shffl'd b-air hits near the ledge can pseudo-spike, f-tilt has godly range and goes below the edge, as does d-tilt, and fortresshogging/edgeguarding does equally well below 100%.

Furthermore, up-b is much better than people give him credit for. Mario's ground game--his jabs, u-tilt, grabs, and d-smash--are equally important as his ground game, and in practically every case, Bowser's up-b will out-prioritize Mario's ground hits. . .fast startup, huge hitboxes, great knockback on the first hit. . .it makes it hard to get close to Bowser.

Along the same lines, Bowser has godly range. I'll say it right now--Mario's biggest issue, aside from his inability to KO, is his inability to deal with people that outrange/outprioritize him. Look at every crappy matchup that Mario has, and you'll see an opponent that outranges or outprioritizes him. . .Peach. . .Marth. . .Samus. . .

Range issues (aside from KO issues) are what make Mario difficult to use in general. For a character that relies almost exclusively on damage accumulation through combos to get the KOs he needs, range is a HUGE issue because Mario needs his grabs to start his combos. . .and sadly, his grab range, not to mention his general aerial range, is about as lousy as it gets. Hence why people usually have to mindgame a grab in instead of rushdown to grab (like Doc/Flaco) or outright grabbing (Marth/Roy).

Since it's established that range is a huge issue, we can say that Bowser has some sort of advantage in this sole area. Outranging Mario is something you really have to consider, because it makes approaches much more difficult. . .try jumping over Bowser, and you eat u-tilt. Try rushing in, and you eat f-tilt. Try playing jab/grab games, and you eat out-of-shield up-b. Heck, even Bowser's u-air goes through Mario's fastfalled d-air when coming from below. Holy cow.

Granted, I'm not saying that Bowser > Mario. Yes, Bowser has reasonably fast-starting attacks but horrendous ending lag. And obviously, if you score one grab on Bowser, then he gets screwed 19 different ways since you can combo the bloody heck out of him from there. But getting that grab is **** hard, because facing a Bowser is much like facing a Ganon or Marth--get in close, and you start eating lots of hits just to score a grab that might or might not be successful. . .and Bowser can soak up damage like a sponge, while Mario can ill afford to.

Bowser has better edgeguarding, better range, better KO moves. All Mario has on him is combos. If Mario can combo well (follow DI, read any possible counter-hits), then Mario wins. If Bowser can play keep-away (and trust me, he can) and land a few solid hits -> edgeguard, then Bowser wins. It's really that simple. In my book, it's practically an even matchup, though I'll give Mario the slight advantage here.

Actually, we should get Gimpy in on this. He knows more about Bowser than any of us, and he plays with Silv too. . .

Yeah I was referring to experience fighting Gimpy. I found it to be a really easy matchup.

I believe the last thread I made was an attempt at a stage counter pick index. But you told me Mario are versatile n stuff so I let it die. Also I made that like a million years ago.

Hmm. . .okay then. I'll defer to your judgement since you obviously have the experience. All the people I face are literally 3-4 times better than I am, so maybe my view of character matchups might be a bit skewed then. The Bowsers I face (from people who don't main as Bowser, oddly enough) 2 or 3 stock me through sheer mindgames and intimidation.

Some Luigi stuff--food for thought:

maelstrom218 said:

In a Mario vs. Luigi matchup, it goes straight to Luigi. Mario has issues against anyone that's floaty since his u-tilt isn't as reliable a vertical launcher, which allows opponents to have a much easier time DI'ing/sex kicking(ZOMG LUIGI'S AERIAL PRIORITY)/double jumping out of it due to their falling speed. Combos become that much more difficult; Mario's standard bread-and-butter (shffl'd u-airs, u-tilts, u-smashes) hardly pan out.

What's worse is that Luigi--gasp--actually has decent rushdown ability because of his wavedash. His follow-up after a hit is godly both horizontally and vertically; he can follow up vertically because he has a ridiculous number of vertical launchers that lead into evil KO moves (f-air/d-air), and he can follow up any horizontal knockback hit with his uber-wavedash. Combine fast follow up with godly aerial priority, and you have decent rushdown--something that Mario has a hard time dealing with.

Also of note is that horizontal attacks like CF's knee, Sheik's slap, or in this case, Luigi's chop, tend to **** Mario because of his piss-poor horizontal recovery.

Mario has a hard time locking Luigi into combos; Luigi can lock Mario into as many combos/consecutive hits he wants because of his godly follow-up/pressure game. In a Mario vs. Luigi matchup, Luigi has a serious advantage.

Click to expand...

And Gea's feedback:

Gea said:

Bear with me, I know this matchup much much better with Doc/Lui, but let's see here...

Hmm. It goes more even than you think... but I still put it in Lui's favor, especially if the stage is like Yoshi's Story. Mario's fireballs can decently slow down Lui's rushdown and sometimes force a bad jump which can lead for punishment for Lui.

Lui's sex really breaks what little comboage Mario has, and on a platformed stage ***** his shield (Lui's sex really shieldstabs well coming up from below, I hate it.) But... Mario's does to Lui as well. The difference is Lui can actually combo with his. Mario can really hurt Lui on the ground if he's careful. Dsmash sends Lui at a bad angle off the stage, setting up for edgeguarding. Lui can edgeguard Mario just as well with hogs/bairs/slaps.

I think for Mario to do well here, he really has to know the matchup. Pills and Fair really help Doc get some much needed KOs/ breathing room, and while fireballs are good for Mario, they don't hinder Lui as much. Lui can use utilt juggles, easily launch Mario, and doesn't fear Mario's launchers.

Still.. if the Mario has the balls to edgeguard Lui, its over for his stock. Edgeguading a good Lui is one of the scariest things you'll ever do in smash. Cyphus agrees with me here. You become scared that they will misfire, because they do more often than not. Meteor a Lui out from the stage and its over. Mario just has to play extreme ground hit and run with a few shffls and smart grabs in here to do well. This is very contrastive to what Mario usually plays though... and a mistake with some poor DI can put you from 0-60 in seconds.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I think Luigi > Mario in this matchup. Luigi has a slight advantage. It's the stupid aerial priority and anti-combo floatiness. And the wavedash rushdown with short-hopped double aerials. Oh my God, the rushdown.

Naw, maybe another time.

Heh, that's an old *** post. Anyways, Bowser is one of those characters that you never play against so his mindgames are many. Get some experience at basic things (anticipating the fsmash, and not blinding rushing to him if he's near the edge under 100%, etc) and he turns back into the bottom tier he once was.

Still, occasionally I hear murmurs of "Bowser is closer to even against Mario than one would think"

I remember that Luigi debate. LoL How could I have forgotten. Thanks alot for that input. Now I can actually john correctly in that matchup >___>

Luigi is pretty easy to handle once you get enough experience of the matchup. Same instance with bowser. They both hold a pretty fat suprise factor that people experience from fighting characters you rarely encounter. So after the initial shock value wears off, for bowser mostly, the matchup becomes simple. Fo sho. Luigi is always a ***** though, just less so after a while.

I still want to see vids of your Mario Maelstrom. =_=

Any thoughts on placement of the other characters? Any arguements against current placements?

Yeah, I have a friend who has been stepping up his Bowser, and it's not a fair matchup at all for Bowser... Lui beats Mario in a many aspects, but it's always a close fight... Yoshi... I dunno about all that, easy to combo is fine but he's mighty weightly and has good mindgames and a brutal downsmash, and can combo Mario as much as he can combo anyone. YL, I agreed, selective cape and ****, bair to finish.

CF, well, you just haven't played G-reg. He has a chainthrow in this matchup and can do 2-3 hit combos on Mario until the end of time, and Mario has it tough dealing with the knee. **** on both sides, even.

GD is correct, he has 1001 ways to KO a Mario, I hate Shiek, the rest is all pretty good. I would bump Peach down to Not in Favor, I give her 6-4, just because Mario can duke it out with her all day and come up with more damage, doesn't get ***** by the dsmash, and has good recovery against her.

I'll add one! Mario ***** Link.
+Cape Projectiles
+Easy to land launchers and grabs
+Easy, simple, repeatable combos
+Link can't juggle Mario very well
+Link can't edgeguard Mario very well
+Everything Link does results in a grab.
+Link is too slow, good day sir!
-Bombs can be rough and hard to cape
-Difficult to edgeguard
-Any Link players care to comment? I got nothing.

technomancer said:

I'll add one! Mario ***** Link.
+Cape Projectiles
+Easy to land launchers and grabs
+Easy, simple, repeatable combos
+Link can't juggle Mario very well
+Link can't edgeguard Mario very well
+Everything Link does results in a grab.
+Link is too slow, good day sir!
-Bombs can be rough and hard to cape
-Difficult to edgeguard
-Any Link players care to comment? I got nothing.

Click to expand...

In Link's defense, if he sheilds a smash, its a free sheild grab. Therefore aerial > grab is your only option if he is playing defensive, and that can be predictable.
Bombs are challenging to cape, and are damaging.
Also, Link's nair destroys Mario's recovery :-p

I moved Shiek down to ***** Mario, because I couldn't do **** against Ka's shiek yesterday. Seriously, if a shiek knows how to fight Mario, your screwed. I dont know how to approach it. >__< ANGER.

I moved peach up, because I remembered that fighting peachs isn't as gay as fighting Samus or anything.

Moved Yoshi down to in favor of Mario

Added Fox and Falco

Adult Link basically has nothing on Mario but nair ledgeguard and a mediocre combo game, so I added him to the Mario ***** section. NOTE: It is really easy to catch bombs, and after a little while of playing YL and AL, caping bombs becomes as easy as caping anything else. So I didn't really count that.


Inform us more Cape! Give us your opinion on every single matchup =P

I still think Mario doesn't **** anyone. Link is. . .an odd matchup. I don't usually have problems with him, but defensive Links can wear me out sometimes. Any shielded aerial or smash means an insta-shieldgrab, and projectile walls are more formidable with him because he actually has the swordrange to take advantage of weaving in/out behind his bomb/rang combos. His edgeguarding with n-air is annoying as well.

Then again, Link is so easy to combo that it's a bit disgusting. I have no idea how to combo, but against Link, shffl'd u-airs and grab combos just come naturally. . .

Btw, is caping bombs effective? I always thought catching them made more sense, but that was because I never got the cape timing down. You have to cape relatively early before the bomb hits, right?

And yes, Peach really is that gay. She's just as bad as Samus. Just more annoying.

The Doc forum (some of it anyways) always thought Link was a tough matchup for at least Doc... because combos or not... look at some of Link's aspects:

1. He can outspam you. Yes you can deal with his projectiles, but he can deal with yours AND his are more flexible.
2. Your range <<<<< his. This works in two different ways. The first is obviously your approach is weaker and his defense stronger. Jabs can stifle your shffled nairs, dsmash if you barely miss with one of your hits, and coming in from above utilt is pretty nice against you. His aerials will either trade hits or just outdo yours... and let's say you approach as he is short-hopping. He can retreat into a grab as you land. Because you have to get pretty close to even attempt to hit him... grabs aren't terribly hard for him.
3. His kill moves that are the quickest also kill horizontally. Fsmash and spinspikes devistate the recovery. This means he doesn't have to even bother with downstab. Though he does have horizontal killmoves as well if it comes to a low ceiling stage.

On the plus yes he is juggled easy, grabbing him isn't terribly hard (all things considered) and it leads to major punishment. You both edgeguard each other fairly evenly (unless you come in high then his > yours).

This sounded more negative than intended... but I just don't think Mario quite utterly dominates the match.

umm eggz, i think ur guide sux cause it wasnt color coordinated!!!!!!
are you gonna add all chars soon?

You should move Yoshi up to the top of the "In Mario's Favor" section. Since there aren't any negative things about this match up, Yoshi deserves to be at the top of the " In Mario Favor" section.

Sorry Wolf, not all of us can make color coordinated Fox stage guides that only Eggz gets to see.

You should add Jigglypuff in and put him in the "Not in Mario's Favor section".

The reason why Jigglypuff has the advantage in this match up is because his aerials are brokenly cheap, Wall of Pain, The Rest, Rest combos, surpreme aerial mobility, broken recovery, Pound, and decent smash attacks.

Mario can easily be caught in rest combos because he doesn't fall very fast. Infact, all Jigglypuff needs to do is Down Throw, then Rest him in the air. Wall of Pain ****s up Mario's recovery in a snap. He absolutely owns Mario in aerial combat. Mario's meteor smash can't do **** because Jigglypuff has more than 2 jumps, making in incredibly easy to meteor cancel. His throws do stupid damage too.

The only good thing in this match up is that Jigglypuff is light, making is very easy for Mario to KO him.

What about the ic's. i have no opinion on them because i've never played against them, but i think they should be on that list

All of the other characters in the game should be on the list as well but no one is contributing lol.

Total word up on the jigglypuff thing.

Nevermind.

The matchups your commenting on you have experience with, right?

Forget about the Mewtwo one. I had some trouble of thinking of......the things in the match up.



Meh, I guess im only able to point out fairly obvious match ups like Bowser, Fox, Falco, or Jigglypuff.

Mario vs Puff is a strictly even matchup, the f-smash and n-air **** puff, but the massive aerial game puff has ***** mario, even (I played aeroshadow's puff at CCX yesterday and both matches came down to 120%+ last stock...i won both barely). As for IC's its slightly in IC's favor cause they can do grab combos on u and its hard to fight the CC d-smash, but its not utter **** (like samus is). Link vs Mario is most def in mario's favor due to the **** of grab combos and SHFFL's, u just cant miss the sweetspot on recovery or ur dead. Mario's matchups are for the most part very very even except for the few exceptions of Samus/Peach/Doc.

And i know i have a personal problem in facing Falco's, but what options does mario have vs a GOOD falco who u cant grab? (just curious...and if u say "just cape the lasers" dont even bother posting...because thats a free f-smash/n-air in the face)

Actually cape the lasers works.

I fight good Falcos like Tori frequently, and caping the lasers gives you enough time to get grounded and shield. Mindgaming into grabs is basically all you can do, but since you can chainthrow Falco from 0-70% with no chance of them getting out, its worth it.

I can't chainthrow from 0% yet, but I can from 5%

So.

Chainthrow to 70%, if they DI at 70% follow with either an uair, uair, full hopped uair, second jumped nair, or a wavedash forward smash. If they don't DI at 70%, time an utilt, then follow up with uairs into something.

Basically you just need to learn how to chainthrow and predict falcos.

Also, you clearly don't know about the Mario puff matchup. That thing is such a *****. And am I supposed to know who aeroshadow is?

Um intresting I imagine mario against marth is not gonna be and easy win or even a match,its gonna be hard to beat a marth win mario,Marth gots the range the fireballs that mario throws are gone with one swipe of marth blade also the tier list dont lie I know that the tier list dont matter but come on get real its suicidal also its about skill tier list dont matter is all about skill.

What the **** are you babbling about?

well never mind.

No I mean I seriously had no idea what your point was, and your post was basically just a jumble of words I was too lazy to interpret lol. I'd like your opinion, but in a clear format.

flaco said:

Um intresting I imagine mario against marth is not gonna be and easy win or even a match,its gonna be hard to beat a marth win mario,Marth gots the range the fireballs that mario throws are gone with one swipe of marth blade also the tier list dont lie I know that the tier list dont matter but come on get real its suicidal also its about skill tier list dont matter is all about skill.

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I don't know what the **** you said, but the tier list does matter. No **** skill is more important. But this list shows who has the better chance of winning in a vs. match. Marth has a better chance of winning against Bowser because Marth is faster, has more range, better throws, and can combo Bowser to Hell.

Wait a second, Jiggs has rest combos on Mario. . .? I knew rest combos worked exceptionally well on fastfallers because they, well, fall into rest naturally. . .but I was under the assumption that Mario recovers from hitstun fast enough (and is floaty enough) to either jump out or sex kick before rest can hit. Otherwise, yeah, Jiggs does really well against Mario. Partly because of the aerial priority/mobility, the fact that she can't be edgeguarded, and also because conventional smashes aren't as effective, especially d-smash.

I think Peach needs to be moved to the "***** Mario" section. Aside from the massive frustration she inspires when you fight her (constant overpowering priority, ridiculous d-smash hits, zero-lag setups, TURNIPS), it's the simple fact that everything Mario has, Peach has. . .but better.

Mario has fireballs--but Peach has turnips. Mario has moderately decent aerials--but Peach has overwhelmingly high-priority aerials. Mario has pretty good edgeguarding--but Peach has it even better with floating b-airs and turnips. Mario has an acceptable, variable recovery--but Peach never dies.

Frankly, Peach is a *****. You can't combo her because of the floatiness and also because every aerial she throws out will almost invariably snuff out yours practically 100% of the time. Anyone with even moderate DI skills can make Peach live up to ridiculous %s because her recovery is just too good. General approach is made difficult because turnips, dash attack, d-smash, and float-cancelled d-airs are things you just want to avoid altogether.

The way I see it, Peach is just way too good. I'm racking my brain to see what Mario has on Peach, and I'm not getting anything. You just have to space with u-tilt/u-air/up-angled f-tilt and pray that you can land the lucky hits you need. Maybe fireballs can slow down float-cancelling approaches. . .but what else is there?

Jiggs doesn't have rest combos on Mario. Ever. XD

And word up on the peach matchup, you raised several good points.

Nevermind.

Mediocre Man...i played KM's falco the other day and got rapziezed, hes a far superior player and i am bad vs falco, but CGing a falco who cant be grabbed is quite a task lol. Grabbing good falco's is much harder than u think >_>.

Mario vs Peach is only **** on Dreamland, obviously DONT CC THE D-SMASH, but peach cant do **** if u stay under her with u-airs, and d-air to up-tilt does wonders.......

And Puff has a very rare rest combo i believe at 7-9% with and up-tilt to rest or some BS, that doesnt work and only works if done perfectly. Mario vs Puff is even.......(Btw aeroshadow is a puff who made it to the last pools in FC6 >_>). When facing puff, just time ur attacks inbetween theirs.....its just like common sense....

I play good falcos lol. Believe it.

Blunted_Object10, Luigi Ka Master, and Tori, all of which have very good Falcos. Tori and Blunted win tourneys with their falcos lol.

maelstrom218 said:

Btw, is caping bombs effective? I always thought catching them made more sense, but that was because I never got the cape timing down. You have to cape relatively early before the bomb hits, right?

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If you cape backwards its easier as the hitbox from the cape isnt so large, but then you aren't facing Link >.>

Doing well against Flaco (when you're Mario, anyways) really hinges on two things--your ability to properly DI out drillshine combos, and your ability to chaingrab properly (and anticipate opponent DI). If you can do those two things, then you're basically set--drillshine combos become impossible for the Flaco to connect (as often as he would like), and you yourself can now add in a huge chunk of damage.

Of course, it takes a lot of work to master those two things. I still can't chaingrab properly, curse my wretched soul. And timing DI to counter shines is still pretty hard to do.

Other things make Flaco a bit less scary. Neutralizing SHB rushdown is usually a matter of simply avoiding the very last laser before actual hits--say, for example, that the Flaco likes to SHB -> grab. Just avoid the laser before the grab, and you don't have to deal with the stuntime. Of course, avoiding it is the hard part, but powershielding it, rolling away, jumping over it, or a variety of other things can help out.

. . .I think I'm rambling. Sorry, I just woke up. . .what other matchups did you want, MM?

You forgot to mention that KO power is not needed too. Maybe if Falco messes up during a pillar, like forgetting to L cancel the D air part, MAYBE you could score 1 grab. By the way, do you call him Flaco by accident?