The next step in unpredictability?

This goes back to the middle of the summer my cousin and I were either playing or watching a match of smash. Anyways my cousin randomly points out how ken does the most random stuff sometimes for the sake of being unpredictable. Even before that he even went as far as to randomly use illusion against me, but that didn't work too well.

Well today I started to think about it again and how it might work out for each character, using b moves in a way that people don't see coming from competitive smashers much. So I wanted to know what you guys thought about this, here are a few examples of what I mean:

Marth: When your opponent is at a high percentage and you are one stock behind (or more) and you just want to him die. I've seen ken use up b times before in matches not in this same scenario, but in a situation when the opponent was at a high percentage he used it to ko them. Also sometimes (even though I think that a bunch of marth players already do this) use neutral b after a combo for the sake of calculating as much damage as possible while you get the chance and as a bonus possible getting your opponent off stage.

Fox: Lets say you go up for a shffl dair and you know that your opponent is gonna shield and might predict a shine after your shffl dair. Replace the shine with an up-b that can do some damage if they are not shielded and take off a bit of their shield as it gets hit by his charge up. If they get hit you can also direct it towards them in hopes of calculating more damage. Even though I practiced this on a computer it worked out nicely. I shffl daired and did a firefox and the computer was getting burned by the charge up frames and he went a little bit above fox so when the charge up was complete he was sent up with the firefox and the firefox ended perfectly on the platform on that stage (battlefield i think) and so as I landed I was able to up smash him. This might need a little work, but just try to remember this is happening like once or a few times in a match just to confuse your opponent.

Samus: This one already exists and besides all of samus's b moves are used. But if Hugs wasn't the one to discover this he was the one that put it to good use and that is using the screw attack out of shield and maybe just randomly sometimes. I'm sure many samus players already put this to use and this one might become predictable, but if you use it sparingly it might regain its charm.

Falco: The interesting thing about this one is I actually saw a pro in a vid do this I think. I can't remember how it went exactly but it was something like shine jump shine jump u-air and then use firebird and aim it at the opponent. The point of it basically is to get the opponent vertically high and use falco's firebird. Falco's firebird already has some pretty good knockback when it hits someone. (it can kill fox like at 160ish% which is high but that is when fox is standing on the stage not in the air) So doing it after you've gotten the opponent vertical is bound to be a way to kill an opponent early.

Those are a few example I can think of. Now try not to forget this will be done once when the opponent is not suspecting it cause he hasn't seen it from you it is more likely to be successful and when it is successful its pretty useful/helpful. But the thing is if you use it too excessively it will backfire like there is no tomorrow. I can guarentee you that you are lucky if you get away with it twice in a row because when an opponent has seen it once they will assume that you might do it again, but at the sametime it will confuse them cause they won't exactly know if you are a noob or if you did it on purpose or not. But if you do it again they will have no problem avoiding it or make you suffer the consequences for trying.

So I just want to hear your opinions on this and if you've got one for a character that you want to share feel free to post it.

'to think of a combo, and to think it will work out, is being mindgamed' tbh lol

you just need to mix things up, in my opinion thinking of the outcome of specific combos isnt a good thing to do, because you will fall into habit of doing the same things and become predictable, just mix things up, think on the spot, its the way to be

Somtimes with Marth, if I see they're gonna go free of my chaingrab, I just hold them and pound away and let them break free, and then slap them with a neutral B.

These are simply unpredictable ideas because of how rare they are used or need to be used and this is what makes them helpful.

something I found out about fox is dashing then full jumping with a control stick and canceling it at like 1/3 into the jump (so its like a sh) with a firefox and if you get them while they are still getting hit by the ff charge up you can aim it towards them for more damage, the idea I posted above isn't as efficient as this cause they are frames where the opponent can get away so just scratch what I said earlier.

I don't think the falco one will work =/
Maybe using the forward+b at random times will work.

Marth can't combo well at high percents and a non-sweetspotted f-smash will almost never kill your opponent if you're both on the stage.

The reason why some people use up-b to finish because actually does have a fair bit of kick. Also it's pretty fast; if you try and use an f-smash it's likely they'll dodge. Also as said before their already INSIDE your tipper ranger so f-smash would do little; up-b is in perfect range.

So i think it's abit less about being just unpredictable than people may percieve it.

On topic however, i think throwing random stuff into the fight can work. Probably not the stuff you listed though. For example with the firefox/bird no matter how much your opponent didn't expect it a pro would have a quick enough reaction time to take the appropriate action because those 2 moves are just too slow.

I think it's enough most of the time just to change your tactics during the match.

This remind me of the times when I would occasionally use aerial down b's with ganondorf and bowser. they would not expect it at all, and i get a hit. I probably have been trying it too much lately, though. It can only work if they're completely unsuspecting, especially bowsers.

NG7 said:

Marth can't combo well at high percents and a non-sweetspotted f-smash will almost never kill your opponent if you're both on the stage.

The reason why some people use up-b to finish because actually does have a fair bit of kick. Also it's pretty fast; if you try and use an f-smash it's likely they'll dodge. Also as said before their already INSIDE your tipper ranger so f-smash would do little; up-b is in perfect range.

So i think it's abit less about being just unpredictable than people may percieve it.

On topic however, i think throwing random stuff into the fight can work. Probably not the stuff you listed though. For example with the firefox/bird no matter how much your opponent didn't expect it a pro would have a quick enough reaction time to take the appropriate action because those 2 moves are just too slow.

I think it's enough most of the time just to change your tactics during the match.

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Yah you are probably right, they are better off as examples. But to add to this some strategies with b-moves or any moves for that matter. I kind of made it seem like this topic is only for b-moves when it works for things like marth's u-smash and stuff.

Anyways something that works really well on noobs is raptor boost with cf. They dunno how to tech and might eventually get out of it but for the time being it would be fun to torture them. DSF also beat my lil cousin at pandemonium using dash attack because he didn't know how to tech. This kind of shows that your goal is also to use your opponent's disadvantage to your advantage.

Edit: I was just thinking about what you said about firefox/bird. Usually when this is done by accident you just let it happen and try to avoid getting hit as a result of doing it. So if you are u-airing someone with falco and they are high up vertically, they might assume that you did firebird by accident (ESPECIALLY if you play with all the general competitive/advance techs. i.e. wavedash, di, l cancel, mindgames) and wait for it to happen because they'll think you won't be idiotic enough to aim it at them because that is so predictable. So technically your goal is kind of to be noobish like in a way that it isn't predictable. (because it is what they expect from a noob and won't expect it from someone that is playing at your level of comeptitiveness. In other words you would have to be giving them a good enough fight to trick them with it.)

as link hit people with the hook shot, it doesn't have particularly good knockback but at someone coming back to the platform it can knock em hard enough to make em have to use that recover move again, sort of a quazi stall/setup

Everything you mentioned is called mindgames. I like to techchase people with a Falcon punch, it might not work all the time but it sure as hell is funny when it does.

I've recently been experimenting with button mashing randomly during a match, and it's worked out somewhat well... <.< But I think It's because my subconscious has made it controlled somewhat, as I see things like a roll back, wavedash forward, double jup cancel uair in the midst of mashing.... but I still had no intention of doing that... And that's about as random as it gets.

Nedech said:

Everything you mentioned is called mindgames. I like to techchase people with a Falcon punch, it might not work all the time but it sure as hell is funny when it does.

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I know that they are tricking/confusing people, but I don't consider mindgames attacks. It is simply hard to predict because it isn't seen much. Mindgames is something you use to trick your opponent into getting stuck into a long combo, or simply getting hit, or maybe even a ko. But the mindgame is not associated with the attacks, but it is what you do to be able to get the attack on your opponent.

Sure mindgames are supposed to be unpredictable, but mindgames vary based on who you are versing and their own mindgames. Unpredictability is doing the least suspected thing in a given scenario.

i.e. even though this might not work its just an example. Lets say you are marth and you catch someone off guard with a full jump (while they are in the air) and fair them twice.

What they can predict (because of what they have observed from you and vsing other marths): you are going to fair again, so they prepare to di.

Knowing that they might be thinking this, this is what you can do: instead of doing a 3rd fair u-air so they don't get knockbacked as far from the di so you can still continue to combo though or hit them.

Another example of unpredictability:
Lets say your opponent (when you are marth)was knocked up vertically and they are coming down. They want to try to fake you out and pretend they are giving you a free hit, so they start coming right in front of you (as they are falling you)and giving you what looks like a free f-smash, but then they aerial dodge (diing right overhead)

Now before I continue the above scenario ^^^^, I want to explain to make this clear. What your opponent did/tried to do to you is a mindgame. They predict generally anyone to do the samething in that situation which is f-smash. This is something subject to predictability because it is something that has already occured in your match(es) with them or their matches from past experience. So you can say that predictability is what you take to your advantage and manipulate a mindgame out of. Unpredictability is countering or give your opponent a hardtime trying to pull of a mindgame on you.

So in this situation, do what is unexpected of a marth, assuming that you know they are going to do this and u-smash them when they are over your head.

This will most likely cause them to think "wtf" in their mind and that is what unpredictability is trying to do.

I geuss you can say unpredictability is a mindgame coutnering your opponents, but I see at least some difference between unpredictability and mindgames.

Ignatius said:

I've recently been experimenting with button mashing randomly during a match, and it's worked out somewhat well... <.< But I think It's because my subconscious has made it controlled somewhat, as I see things like a roll back, wavedash forward, double jup cancel uair in the midst of mashing.... but I still had no intention of doing that... And that's about as random as it gets.

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lmao. But when it comes to being unpredictable... I just do whatever. >_>

RaSeruCort said:

lmao. But when it comes to being unpredictable... I just do whatever. >_>

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you mean whatever comes naturally as a response right? If you just do w/e that won't work out on just anyone.

1 post away from 1000 o.o btw

watch your matches and guess what you gonna do, if you cannot read yourself, then yo ucannot be read

*face*

My favorite trick is, when the match is not high stakes (not that it is not an important match, but If I am up) i just like to "test the waters" If you know how an opponent reacts naturally then you are doing good. Like when I get a grab in early with fox, I just do a Dsmash afterwards.. Doesn't matter if it hits or not, chances are they will roll next..

Then, when I need a kill I get a grab.. Then a down throw... Chances are they will roll, and based on if they roll towards the center always or if they roll just away from where I am facing... I just sometimes know, ok

I run with them and then U-smash...

deadly

I like to never think about what i'm doing.. because if i'm not

How can they

O.o

I liek to play smashed out of my face, then nobody knows.

My freind threw up in his hat during a match at ros4. he won the match.