Yoshi v. Falco

Shiri · Oct 9, 2006

Hang on a sec...lemme get in the mood for this.

...

Okay.

...

**** that ***** Falco. **** his ****. ****ing shine, ****ing down air, ****ing back kick, ****ing forward smash, ****ing lasers (well, I can powershield them, but **** them anyway), and ****ing ****. **** him. **** his ****. **** his couch.

Yoshi can use down tilt in this match.

Discuss.

P.S. - Please excuse the NC-17 language. When Falco comes to mind, my anger is only matched by pure rage.

Jihnsius · Oct 9, 2006

Aside from Falco's blaster, I think Yoshi pretty much has the upper hand in this match due to longer reach and higher strength/defense. I'd take the offensive most of the time, to keep Falco's blaster off of you. I'd also recommend trying to control the air more often than the ground, too. Yoshi's fAir will give you the reach you need, while staying above the blaster's reach, or if he does blast you, the reach might still knock him down and/or out.

A strategy that you might want to consider for getting around his edgeguarding: Instead of making it your duty to make it back to the stage, try to just get onto the ledge. From there, hit back, jump backwards (so you're facing away), and then immediately move back towards the stage, fastfall and fAir him. If the Falco is unsuspecting, he just may go for that SH spike to keep you down, and your unforseen journey around his wall will result in his SH being thrown off the level. If the fAir is blocked, cancel and dTilt him to knock him off, then immediately SH and prepare for fAir, or WD off and onto the ledge to hog it.

Not much else I can think of right now.

rmusgrave · Oct 9, 2006

Fumi vs Koma.

Ok, vital points against Falco.

- NEVER EVER EVER let him SHL you while you're air borne. That is the worst time to get SHL'd as it gives him the perfect approach. If he does a SHL approach against you grounded, a f-tilt will beat that SH d-air. If you're over the top of his SHL, try something like using a DJC n-air and approach him from above. If he's recklessly approaching, and can't set himself up for a turn-around b-air or up-tilt then you should be safe for this approach.

- Mindgames. (Ugh, I can't believe I said that... if you have to rely on mindgames then you know a matchup is disadvantaged) Try stuff like n-airing his shield then f-tilt or up-tilt to prevent his d-air out of shield. If he catches on, then do one neutral A tap, then f-tilt or up-tilt. Mindgame in the grab with dash dances and fakeouts on the shield.

- Tech chasing. This is one of the best ways to combo Falco, as it is often hard to land those vital combo moves to set up a large juggle. Falco can only tech 3 ways, so that's a 33% chance of predicting it right, and more so if he's near the edge or some other hazard. Then all it comes down to is your own personal ability to tech chase.

>_> yeah, this matchup isn't the best.

If you watch Koma vs Fumi, Fumi seems to operate on a few general principles. First, he seems to for the most part, approach Falco aerially above the SHL height. He quite often jumps over the lasers, DJC's only to do an egg throw which can't be interrupted by a SHL by the way he timed it. He spaces himself well, allowing him to do things like f-tilting Falco out of the SH d-air approach. He keeps the pressure on Falco, to keep him close enough that the SHL is useless.

And then, he combos Falco to death. Grab -> d-throw -> DJC up-airs. Grab -> d-throw -> tech chase -> another grab. F-air -> DJC n-air -> grab. F-tilt -> d-smash or tech chase or any other number of options.

So....... be ownage like Fumi and you can beat Falco players as good as Koma. <_<

Jihnsius · Oct 9, 2006

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucHgO35Fi5Y
Here's a video where Bloshi (sorry to use you as an example) refuses to stay above Falco's SH range. It's apparent how vital it is to keep out of reach of Falco's dAir and Blasters.

Shiri · Oct 10, 2006

Yeah, I can see what Jihnsius and Bringer mean by getting out of that SHL range.

Someone uploaded an @$$-old vid of me from the summer playing a buddy of mine who doesn't even main Falco. It didn't turn out very well at all. x_x While I think I did some of the stuff Bringer suggested, after the first two stock, he just seemed to put the pressure on and I couldn't get breathing room. It's quite a difficult battle if you're not prepared.

Thanks for the hints, guys.

Jihnsius · Oct 10, 2006

Thinking about it again, it's probably best if you can stay above Falco at all times, and just attack from above with DJC. The only time you'll be safe on the ground is if you're LCing an attack and setting up for a combo, or if you're on a ledge utilizing ECE and invuln frames to shut up his blaster.

Doubletails · Oct 10, 2006

Prety tough match, as there is a Falco player on the crew which acts pretty much like a Falco Should.
I get Pwned more often by him than by any other of his secondaries (I've merely beaten him a couple of times with a Falco, a story of hundreds of matches.)
FSmashing him near the edge outside the stage will almost guarantee you he'll not return (40-60% wise) or you can be set with a edge hog or a good edgeguard technique.

lvl9 CP · Oct 10, 2006

You guys have covered most everything I have to say already (especially you Shiri in the first post), but I've got a few things to add.

First thing I've noticed is that d-throw leads to f-smash a good chunk of the time against falco (best around 60-80%ish?). I think falco can DI out of this combo, but for some reason lots of falcos don't...possibly because it's a quick throw or because they've never fought a Yoshi, you guys tell me. Even if they do DI, I think wave f-smash works too.

My favorite thing to do against fast fallers is to egg them (neutral b) off the edge. So few people expect it and it's fantastic when it works. When I'm at a high % and get knocked off the stage against a low % falco/fox, if I notice they're near the edge looking to edge-guard me, sometimes I intentionally fall short of the ledge and egg them as I'm falling down. You could also do a ledge-hop into a ledge cancelled neutral b if you're feeling extra suicidal.

Steet1 · Oct 10, 2006

lvl9 CP said:
First thing I've noticed is that d-throw leads to f-smash a good chunk of the time against falco (best around 60-80%ish?). I think falco can DI out of this combo, but for some reason lots of falcos don't...possibly because it's a quick throw or because they've never fought a Yoshi, you guys tell me. Even if they do DI, I think wave f-smash works too.

D-throw to n-air works a lot better. For one, you can chase your opponent through the air with it if they DI or jump away from you. And also, Yoshi's n-air just ***** Falco in general.

I haven't had the chance to try this out against an actual opponent, but I'm thinking that d-air to DJC n-air or DJC u-air may prove efficient.

More as it developes.

Link-NY · Oct 10, 2006

Yoshies d-tilt is probably the best move to use aginst falco. If u get the chance to land it on him. Yoshi d-tilt will kill falco even if hes at 0% the knockback on this move does not change no matter the % and its a good CCC move once falco goes for firebird or phantsm just d-tilt away lmao i can gauranteed hes not coming back

technomancer · Oct 11, 2006

Dsmash is generally better than dtilt when it's safe, due to the higher damage output and greater knockback. If you miss a Dtilt chances are you got lasered, or you're getting ***** already, so it's better to use the smash.

For gods sake, ban FD, ban it like you've never banned anything before. To win this match in a tournament, on any stage but Pokemon, FD and Battlefield, spam ECE relentlessly to rack as much damage as possible, so you can kill with dsmash later. Too gay? Lol it's Falco, no John's this fight.

If you do for some reason end up on FD, powershield everything, not just lasers, it's your best bet. Zomg can't powershield? Zomg more practice for you! Practice powershield to ftilt. Yoshi is at a big disadvantage here because you can't dashdance around Falcos stuff in any way at all, and you can't jump out of your shield, so you just have to play gay roll mindgames until you can fit in some suprise buttsecks. This is pretty much why you need the powershield.

rmusgrave · Oct 11, 2006

Wtf powershield. Yoshi's powershield isn't like everyone else's, and f-tilt comes out after the shield release animation unlike other characters when powershielded. The only time you'll land this is after a super laggy move like f-smash, when its better to shieldgrab anyway.

I know what you mean about not getting breathing room of your own Shiri. Other than DIing his combos to put yourself in an advantageous position, the only other thing I can mention is roll spamming. >_>

Its very hard for Falco to hit Yoshi while roll spamming. Probably the only moves that connect are f-smash and a grab. At any rate, if you roll enough, his SH approaches aren't gonna do anything, so he'll eventually stop and go grounded, giving you breathing time to RDJC or something like that.

Not the best strategy, but its worked for me on quite a few Falco's.

Jihnsius · Oct 12, 2006

What is this "roll spam?" Are you referring to Yoshi's forward B egg roll? If so, how do you connect anything out of that?

technomancer · Oct 12, 2006

Roll spamming is spamming of the side dodge.

The laser stuns for a similar amount of time as your shield-dropping animation, so generally if you're quick gets the free Ftilt and a chance to start a combo from there.

Jihnsius · Oct 12, 2006

Oh, you mean just a regular roll. Yeah, and I suppose that knowing hot to spot dodge well would help a lot in this match, too.

Doubletails · Oct 14, 2006

Supershielding.. You need to predict a Falco's game. dair to shine is falco's favourite style of comboing (pillaring.). It might take a stock or two, even a match, but, dammit, read all of Falco's approaches, they are usually (not ALWAYS) predictable.
You have a tenth of a second to do supershielding, it's relatively a lot of time, no?

Just an Idea I had.

Bloshi · Apr 2, 2007

Doubletails said:
Supershielding.. You need to predict a Falco's game. dair to shine is falco's favourite style of comboing (pillaring.). It might take a stock or two, even a match, but, dammit, read all of Falco's approaches, they are usually (not ALWAYS) predictable.
You have a tenth of a second to do supershielding, it's relatively a lot of time, no?

Just an Idea I had.

Falco's dair has two different hitboxes (I think), one spikes, the other meteors, and they come at later times, so I don't think its possible to supershield the dair. Its also hella hard to do, even if you are expecting it.

Shiri · Apr 2, 2007

Sorry, man. You may be misinformed a little. x_x

Falco's down aerial in PAL has two different hits (not sure if they're different hitboxes yet) where the first one meteors and the second one pops the victim up and away. In NTSC (lucky us) Falco's down aerial spikes 100% of the time with one large and very large hitbox.

You can supershield his down aerial. However, it's only really useful and practical if he uses it while rising out of a shorthop. If he were to, say, use it while fastfalling relatively close to the ground, then I doubt any player of average or even above average tech skill could supershield AND successfully counterattack (the counterattack being the main benefit of supershielding, I guess) in time without getting hit by the ensuing jab or shine.

In conclusion, Falco is a **insert expletive here**.

Ghost42 · Jul 3, 2007

I've been thinking about this match up, would it be possible to go through Falco's SHL by aerial dodging on to the ground?
Short hop to a premature wave land using the invincibility frames to go through the laser is the best way I can think of with describing what I mean.

I would test this myself but I don't have anyone who I can test with, also I think won't have the skill to do this constantly.

Jihnsius · Jul 3, 2007

Ghost42 said:
I've been thinking about this match up, would it be possible to go through Falco's SHL by aerial dodging on to the ground?
Short hop to a premature wave land using the invincibility frames to go through the laser is the best way I can think of with describing what I mean.

I would test this myself but I don't have anyone who I can test with, also I think won't have the skill to do this constantly.

Possible for the first blaster, yes, but then the second one would probably hit you as you're landing.

technomancer · Jul 3, 2007

So you mean like triangle jumping? This is more useful for punishing laggy attacks. remember, by the time the laser hits you, Falco is landing as well with something like 4-6 frames of landlag, and a hoober fast jab and shine if he lands near you. If you mess this up he can just Fsmash. I don't see much of a benifit over spotdodging.

Also, if you're airborne, why not just float over the lasers, or DjC through them?

Anyway, you have to predict a laser so you can get airborne to dodge it witch takes frames, and can set you up for getting mindgamed.

rmusgrave · Jul 4, 2007

Technomancer is right, triangle jumping doesn't work against Falco lasers. The main reason being, if you succeed in triangle jumping through the laser, you get the same lag as if you wavedashed which is something like 12 frames. Compare this to Falco's 4 frames of landing lag, and you realise you'll be a sitting duck for 8 frames. 4 frames to Falco's jumping animation makes the next laser out only just be the time you've finished lagging from your triangle jump.

Conclusion? Don't triangle jump through attacks that aren't laggy.

I noticed in a Fumi video a while back, if the Falco approaches with a short hop d-air it's possible to hit him out with a f-tilt. The only problem is that it requires exact spacing. Anyone think this might be a worthy addition to an anti-Falco game? Spacing yourself far enough back to ensure you can break that d-air approach? This should also allow you to CC through and n-air approaches... although you would need to predict which one the Falco would use.

Just throwing it out there.

-PM- · Jul 4, 2007

falco is a stupid fat bird on steroids that can jump way to high i mean for Christ sakes look at that jump i mean come on and he has a gun OH NOES and i wont get into his gay attacks they all need to be nerfed lol he should just be able to jump high and get hit =P

anyway if you stay back with eggs guess what lazer to the face

if you go up to him he ***** your face really hard with his attacks of noobness

so what you do is you play evenly and youll be fine i mean i dont think falco isnt all that hard but if you go up against idk marth *dies* shiek (dumb noob character needs to be nerfed lol) and a really good CF your gonna get like owned really hardcore lol well maybe not the shiek but the others yea

oh btw shiri - falco is a dumb fat bird that needs to be nerfed cause hes ugly and over used and you know what no i can go on about this all day ill just leave it at that lol

Bloshi · Jul 4, 2007

Shiri said:
**** that ***** Falco. **** his ****. ****ing shine, ****ing down air, ****ing back kick, ****ing forward smash, ****ing lasers (well, I can powershield them, but **** them anyway), and ****ing ****. **** him. **** his ****. **** his couch.

Yoshi can use down tilt in this match.

Oh man I was just going back through this thread and these two paragraphs give me BIG LULZ, every time. Never fails.

As for something relevant to the discussion, I would say there is no way to counter the lasers. Don't even try it. Just stay away from them, so they don't hit you. When Falco gets close, THEN there are counters to his game, provided you don't shield very often. (this forces a retreat through lightshielding) The thing is, I'm not exactly sure what they are yet. It has something to do with spacing and tilts, I'm sure. Until we crack the code, just rely on lucky hits to lead into big (lucky) combos that lead to Falco's (lucky) death. You can get four (lucky) hits in per (lucky) game, (lucky) right?

-PM- · Jul 4, 2007

actually iv seen a few different playing styles for noobdust falco and theres the aggressive lets try a bunch of combos and **** you really really hard falco and thats the easy one to beat cause of counters and light shielding and with a bit of luck its easy

NOW FOR **** lol when you have a lazer spamming noob all over the place is where i need help its so hard to beat someone like that with falco i really hate it with a huge passion

then theres the ones like CP chris where they do both and it makes me hide in my egg at all times lol

rmusgrave · Jul 4, 2007

Apparently Masashi's Fox beat Bombsoldier's Falco by basically jumping around above Falco's laser height and using b-air or n-air. I forgot to mention this before, but basically Falco is very effective at fighting people at ground height and at his full jump height. His effectiveness drops a lot if you can stay in the middle of that, which is where Peach gives Falco a lot of trouble. Peach however has the problem of having a slow fast fall, which is something Fox and Yoshi don't suffer from.

If the Falco player adapts and starts facing away and b-air/up-tilting then you need to just get grounded again.

That's my formula for beating Falco anyway.

Shiri · Jul 4, 2007

Wow, that's a pretty serious observation, Bringer.

That's actually one of the ways I beat Falco with Peach, but I never translated that over to Yoshi. Goooood stuff, sir. o_0; Wow, that opens up a lot of doors now.

And yes, Bloshi. LOL @ that. I'm sure that was in one of my better moods, hahaha.

Hmmm, when I was reading Bloshi's post, I was thinking...what can Yoshi do when Falco gets close and lasers? I decided to leave the Yoshi Zone© for a minute and think about what I do with other characters, since Bringer pointed out the Peach on Falco strat that could work for Yoshi. One thing that Marth, Sheik to a lesser extent, and Fox to a lucky extent do is powershield laser + grab on the approach from Falco when he's really close. Now, I'm wondering...can Yoshi do the same thing as well?

rmusgrave · Jul 5, 2007

It works if the Falco player is slow, and even then probably only once or twice. Yoshi's grab is just too slow and if he sidesteps then we all know what happens next.

-PM- · Jul 5, 2007

maybe surprise egg instead of grab then try and get a combo in

Bloshi · Jul 5, 2007

I was thinking ftilt, actually. Angled up, of course. Utilt if the situation is tighter like he's right on top of you. I think you would at least trade hits, unless by close you mean just farther away than ftilt range, in which case wtf are you doing back on the floor bail out my friend. When I say close I mean close, so wait for him to slip up in his laser game so you can approach from the un-laserable place you were at (read: above the Falco). It's just kind of weird to do these things with Yoshi, but once I can do it quickly and effectively, Falcos beware.

What I'm really wondering is what to do on the way back down from staying above the lazors? Thanks to the slow and long double jump, I gain some serious height while the falco has a chance to position himself under me/ If I DJC to cut it short, well there's an opening all the Falco has to do is stand back wait for the landing lag. Most things I do without DJCing, like attacking or wavelanding are easily punishable once the mindgames wear off.

If that's incoherent, oh well, it's late.

rmusgrave · Jul 6, 2007

The idea is to get over the lasers as a tool for approaching as well as preventing his approach. What's the point of getting above laser height if you're just going back down without achieving anything?

If you're too far from Falco to approach him then pop up an egg to prevent him approaching on your way down.

Eggm · Jul 6, 2007

You guys are best off asking yoshiiscool on this matchup hes an expert on it hes amazing at yoshi vs falco. xD

The |Egg| Sniper · Jul 14, 2007

I'll have to go with rmusgrave on this one. SHL will catch you whether you're above him or not, since you'll eventually have to go down. Ground advancement on SHL is your best bet, and it'll be faster since Falco tends to approach you while SHL. Once he gets close, he'll most likely attempt a grab, which you can dodge and punish.

teeman92 · Jul 20, 2007

heh heh,sounds like someones having trouble..

Caleb Wolfbrand · Jul 22, 2007

I do this matchup all the time, against Yoshido >_>

I can safely say Falco HATES the downsmash especially near the ledge (especially if he happened to be hitting down when it happened)

Egg spam usually makes me resort to laser spam, and nobody wants that.

Both characters like to up tilt each other...

Falco's dair is too good. Yoshi's sidestep dodge catches me an awful lot. More than I'd like it to. That is where I use moves that "sit out" like dair and nair.

Yoshido can and will beat my Falco if I don't play really carefully. Matchup is definitely in Falco's top tier-*** favor though.

YOSHIDO · Jul 22, 2007

wow im mad i missed this thread. Lol Hey trc. well anyway.

i'd say in this matchup dont forget to look at what hes attackin with. Sure the short hop laser can f you up if your caught off gaurd. But it doess have a pattern. theres only so many lasers he can shoot. and only at certain lvs. Falco's usllay never do a standing one. If he short hops low that can give u enough time to jump over.. If their high slide under. Just be sure to watch ur spaicin. Cause he will punish. An his down air IS FASTER than most your moves. If it looks like u can hit him with an up tilt. Dont go for it if his safe and awake and in close range. Say like after a dodge.. Cause that hoe will short hop down air before u can flick that tail. Like I said spacing reall important. The better u do it the better the outcome. Like everyone has said. Down tilts and all tilts really. Neutral a, moves that gets him off are great. Up air has worked for me too. The match goes better for small stages since u can edge gaurd him quicker. But yeah this isnt a horrible match for yoshi. Its a heck of alot better then fighting that ***** from hell peach.

Caleb Wolfbrand · Jul 25, 2007

YOSHIDO said:
moves that gets him off are great.

That sounded a little too sensual.

it's nice to hear you talk about my Falco like some sort of demonic onslaught LOL

YOSHIDO · Jul 25, 2007

lol cause thats what it is. an onslaught of attacks

pi3 · Jul 29, 2007

thnx this helped my yoshi game a bit

Beeble · Jul 31, 2007

A trick vs SHL is to crouch, wavedash, crouch. You are only standing for a couple of frames and most of the time the blasters go right over your head.

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