The New Age IC-Counter: Captain Falcon

Needless to say, I need help.

I had always thought Falcon wasn't much of a threat until recently. He is combo MEAT when using the IC, and easy as hell to edgeguard, but I've discovered this:

Poor IC > Poor Falcon
Good IC > Good Falcon
Great IC < Great Falcon

Playing SilentSpectre and Bob$ showed me the truth. (For the record, I beat Bob$'s Doc on my first try, and his other characters were difficult but not impossible. He used Falcon against me as a counter pick.) Now I know why Darkrain, Azen, and Isai all do so well against ChuDat. So if the awesome people on the IC board could help me out with some discrepancies... that would be great. Here's some problems to address:

1. He's a B*TCH to grab. If the player has any mindgames at all, he'll know how to get away from the grabs. Falcon seems the only character completely capable of this. All of his aerials are shield safe when used correctly, and SS showed me the power of the fsmash. He may be easy to combo, but he combos the IC's just as easily. Knee spamming doesn't really help, especially in a tournament situation where the pressure is high.

2. How do you approach a dash-dancer? It's really difficult to space him because, once again, Falcon is practically the only character who can keep up with IC's high-pressure ground control. SS used a lot of pivot fsmashes on me when I tried to approach, thus I found myself second-guessing on a lot of approaches and finding myself vulnerable to separating dthrows and knees.

3. How do you DI when he's comboing you? It seems that no matter where I DI, the Falcon players make the right choice of spacing and accuracy to get the next hit in there. Do I need to start using smash DI? Hahah, cuz it seems like the only choice for me right now to learn it, because those uairs are so **** difficult to avoid. Also, I still can't DI up and into the stage reflexively when I see knees coming... but that's my problem.

The only way to beat Silentspectre was to CG (with reverse CG mixups because his DI is so awesome) and edge guard with charged dsmash. Basically, I had to gimp him to death because I had no idea how to fight him on the ground. I only got one friendly off him out of eight or so, and I'm quite sure he was sandbagging.

Quite frankly, I find this matchup harder than Peach.

(However, it might be because I've been playing really talented players... Regardless, I still need help on the matchup and hopefully more issues will arise and I can make some better decisions.)

Discuss.

counter? ehhhhh thats pushing it. you can argue that ICs are LESS of a counter to falcon, or that its an even matchup, but that falcon is actually a counter to ICs? i don't think so. the reason why Azen, Isai, Darkrain, SS, etc. do so well against ICs is because they are amazing PLAYERS with a metagame that sh*ts on all of us, not because of the character. if that were so, then even mediocre falcons would do great as well. the higher you go in levels of play, the less influence character matchups play and it really becomes a battle of mindgames and skill, not characters.

mindgames >>> character advantages.

Falcon does have the advantage, good sir. What you said is balls true as well though, about metagames, but still, the edge is still there in Falcon's favor, because of exactly what Choknater said. I struggle w/precisely the same thing you do man, so sorry, I can't actually post anything here of use, LoL. I guess I'm just reverberating what you said in hopes of some1 answer the question as well. *waits impatiently*...

I've always thought that Falcon was a surprisingly tough opponent considering his CG vulnerability. He's quick, he's powerful, and is an extremely effective Nana-gimper.

One suggestion I can make is that since he's so likely to slaughter Nana at any point, you can be reckless and throw Nana into harm's way without any guilty, all in the attempt to land a grab. I'm not too experienced in the matchup, but am I correct in guessing that the blizzard can hold Falcon still enough to get a grab in? With his dashdancing, empty short hops, and flying knees, I don't see much you can do against him short of running away and taking cheap wavesmashes. He hops over your ice blocks and dairs you into a knee. He knocks you out of your desynch and takes out Nana when you least expect it.

You can't take an offensive stance against Falcon, but it's the kiss of death to let Falcon get his offense going.

choknater said:

Now I know why Darkrain, Azen, and Isai all do so well against ChuDat.

Click to expand...

I don't think that's an accurate statement. Chu has consistently beaten Isai except for MLG Nationals. Azen beats Chu not because he's a great Falcon (although he no doubt is), but because he knows Chu's game better than anyone else except possibly Ken.

KFC and Bob$ both tear me apart with Falcon, but I manage to run about even with NK in friendlies, even though he only recently picked up the character. All of his aerials can safely attack your shielding, because he can just land behind you. Try to Wavesmash, and a good player will run away and pivot a F-Smash, just as chok says.

He can CG you as well, and his Forward+B will almost always hit Nana or at least force you into a bad position, i.e., a defensive one. You miss a tech, you'll get hit. You tech/tech roll predictably and you will be *****. Your recovery without Nana is incredibly punishable to even a decent Falcon.

Anyone who says this is not a strong counterpick (one of the strongest against ICs) has not played a Falcon who knows the matchup. I do better against Zelgadis' Fox, Killa For Cash's Fox, and Germ's/Falcomist's Falcos than I do against KFC's and Bob's Falcons.

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Jabs are incredibly necessary, and forward tilts can be used to outprioritize a badly timed or spaced aerial. Both of these can lead into Ice Block chasers, and if you play it right a grab. Like chok said, most decent/skilled Falcons can SDI out of this. Pay very very close attention to EXACTLY how you are doing Nana's Dairs so you will know exactly where they will go. Counter their DI with the placement of that hammer, or they will escape before you can nail the grab. Run forward Dair to get them behind you, keep her in place, jump slightly back, or throw the Dair late to get them just in front of you. If you see they are DIing the direction Popo is facing, F-smash. Their DI will knock them twice as far as usual. Edgeguard with D-smash, or a jab if you're short on time, but the hitbox is smaller. Don't forget to edgehog, too. Edgehog with Nana facing offstage, tap A. Nana will jab, Popo does get-up attack, then C-stick down and Nana will D-smash. They are forced to go right into the D-smash, but look out for the tech and keep those smashes/jabs desynched and ready. Also keep an eye out to see where they will land, most won't go for the edge, because Falcon's Up+B has so little landing lag.

Dash attacks can combo into grabs if you don't have time for a Wavesmash. If they're at high percents you can get in Uairs, then Bairs for the kill.

Keep note that most of this is only useful when facing highly skilled Falcon players. If the Falcon doesn't know how to play the match you probably won't have trouble. 'Course that doesn't help us NorCalers, where EVERYONE has a good Falcon. 0_o

Wow... I don't think I've ever really found this match up hard. Falcon is one of those characters that just fall into grab combos so easily, regardless of DI. All you have to do is start things up. So you don't think I'm just blowin steam here's a list of good Falcons I have atleast taken a match off in a tourney/friendly/money match. (SS @ MLG Anaheim, KDJ @ OC2, Ken @ his bi weeklies, DC @ various socal, Chu @ Ken's bi weeklies, Rom @ various socal) granted some of these are from a while ago, like MLG Anaheim. Anyways, its late so this is gonna be sloppy...

How to kill Falcon. Grabbing = insta-death. Reverse d-throw d-air chain performed correctly is inescapable until someone proves me otherwise if you don't feel like repeating the chainthrow and you have nothing against wobbling, reverse d-throw d-air straight into wobbles then smash. dead.

Another grab combo that works really well is d-throw -> u-smash -> dash attack -> u-tilt/grab. When you have just Popo and you land a grab use u-throw at low percentages. if they DI follow with a dash attack -> u-tilt -> grab. if they dont DI, just u-tilt/u-smash and grab again. Unfortunately they can jump out at higher percents.

Landing the grabs: For those of you really having troubles with the Knee, the best solution I've found is WD away from Falcon just out of range and jab before they can do anything from their l-cancel. Either that or WD towards them and u-tilt before the knee comes out. This pretty much indefinitely leads to a grab. Dash attack can override raptor boost if timed correctly, and that leads to a grab. What really scares them is that you can jab their raptor boost VERY easily, and grab them that was as well. WD into u-tilt against n-air and d-air leads to a grab.

Edge guarding Falcon: Charge a smash with just Nana and watch Falcon's response. If he heads towards the ledge, edge hog him. If not then proceed to charge a smash with Popo. Ice blocks can mess Falcon up from afar as well. Don't be afraid to jump out there and b-air him either, that usually does it. And of course there's always just simply charging a smash. The "Popo solo tactics" below work with Nana as well.

When you have just Popo, I tend to hang on the ledge, this leaves going over as Falcons only option. If he comes from below, Ledge hop with a d-air. This will mess up is up B and usually causes them to frantically up b again, this time without the time to sweet spot. Take advantage of this and charge a d-smashwhen you land. If he comes from the side, jump from the ledge and b-air, then DI towards the ledge again. you should be able to grab it even after you b-air. If he comes from above, ledge hop u-air. Then try to land another u-air or b-air to send him off again.

If you mess up a grab: Tech chase. Don't just stand there and think "oh man I had him" Go after the sucker, land another grab, jab, or smash. Do whatever you can to get him off the ledge or into a grab. That's where you can mess Falcon up the most.

If he's attacking you... y'now with the bad stuff, stomps and knees and all that jazz. Make sure to mix up your techs. An IC that DIs away and techs away from Falcons Knees everytime becomes extremely predictable. Keep him guessing and eventually he'll mess up. Then give yourself some space for basic approaches or openings that will lead to a grab or edgeguard. Since Falcon is such an in your face pressure character, a lot of times you can fool them will the simplest roll blizzard desynchs. When returning from the ledge, the most effective technique I've found is WD ->u-tilt. Not to say you should rely on this, grabs, jabs, and rolls work dandy to, but more than 60% of the time, you can get them caught in an u-tilt. Just relax in this match-up, the more you panic, the more predictable you reactions become. Just watch what he's doing and respond accordingly.

Edit: Sorry I didn't read any of the posts above mine, so if some of this is repeated my apologies. Delphiki and n1c2k3 are pretty bright guys though, so I'm sure you can reference a lot of their advice as well. Reference signature for reverse d-throw d-air chain.

When I see G-Reg fight Chu I see lots of knees that soar way past any possible grab.
I see lots of Nairs that soar way past any possible grab.

Once Greg gets nana away from popo, she is dead. But chu is remarkable at saving her too.

Basically chu needs to try the whole game just to get his death grab in, basically, ICs can't do much to CF unless they have him in a grab.

Agreed, IC can't do a whole lot against a great falcon player without a grab or edge guard. Which is why my entire last post was dedicated to "how to grab" and "what to do when you grab" Although they can't do a whole lot to Falcon, one of the things they can do is set up for grabs. Little jabs and tilts that pop Falcon in perfect grabbing positions. But I agree, you can't just expect to shield grab a knee or n-air. If one of those hit your shield WD the hell outta there, avoid rolling cause Falcon's knees are too sexy for rolls.

to Lixivium: Isai's goal at MLG Vegas was to beat ChuDat. Lo and behold, Isai gets a 3-0. The first time Azen used Falcon as a counter pick to Chu at an MLG instead of Marth came as a surprise to me (then I watched Chu beat Azen at GS2 and it all made sense.) I had always thought Falcon was combo meat for IC... and he is, but spacing a skilled one is very difficult.

to azn_lep: ah thanks for the help man. lately i've been putting an effort into playing more cautiously before i do any reckless grab attempts on falcon. grab combos and aerials seem to do him in pretty fast, and edgeguarding him is quite easy. it's improving my game but i'm still having a lot of trouble actually getting the grabs in there. wd jabs are a scary and risky approach and i guess it's just a matter of improving my tech skill and being more precise.

that bit about keeping him guessing and staying calm was the most helpful. looking back on my matches with Bob$, i was using a LOT of predictable techs simply because i was scared of his tag saying "Bob$" hahah... thanks again for the help. but i STILL find this matchup harder than peach

I think his thread may help me because my roommate's falcon ***** my IC

[edit]=How do you stop him from chaingrabbing you? I try to get nana to do something but he always dead-weights her.

falcon can't CG ICs... (well he can cg nana if you let him)

pockyD said:

falcon can't CG ICs... (well he can cg nana if you let him)

Click to expand...

He chain grabs me without trouble. Dthrow > run > dthrow >etc.. I can't seem to DI out of it.

Also, my roomies likes to shffl Nair approach. I can't get past it. >_<

just wobble that ****