1.1.1 Shield Changes and stuff

[Sonic Orochi]

Relevant links:

• Calculator: https://trinket.io/python/35c2ec074b?toggleCode=true
• Frame data: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Sonic

So, I think we should try to analyze how Sonic fares in this new shield meta. I have no idea how to calculate the endlag on moves so maybe someone could help?

 

[Espy Rose]

I can do it in a bit. Not doing much else today.


Edit: Nevermind I have no idea what I'm doing. lol

 

[Sensane]

I once broke someone's shield by circling around their shield with a spin dash in 1.1.0, so maybe they'll deal slightly more significant shield pressure?

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I can do it in a bit. Not doing much else today.


Edit: Nevermind I have no idea what I'm doing. lol

 

[Espy Rose]

I think I know what I'm doing, but it's just difficult.
I think I have a better idea about how this works.

I'll make an honest attempt.

So the website with the frame advantage data doesn't really indicate how much shield stun there is from our moves, so that made it hard to figure this out. I hope I did this right. It's a list of our frame disadvantages on hitting shield. I calculated this using First Active Frames on grounded and specials, as given by the Kuro website, and the Landing Lag data for aerials.

=========

GROUND:

Jab 1: -17
Jab 2: -19
Jab 3: -32
Dash Attack: -60
Dash Attack Final Hit: -59
Ftilt1: -32
Ftilt2: -31/-32/-32 (values were posted as 7/5/5 on dmg)
Utilt1: -37
Utilt2: -35
Dtilt: -23
Fsmash: -40
Usmash: -63
Dsmash: -47
===

AERIALS:

Nair1: -8
Nair2: -10
Nair3: -12
Fair: -24
Fair Last Hit: -23
Bair1: -21
Bair2: -23
Uair1: -18
Uair2: -16
Dair1: -32
Dair2: -32
Dair3: -33

SPECIALS:

Homing Attack1: NA (No data for FAF on this one)
Homing Attack2: -71
Spin Dash: NA (Not sure how to do these)
Spin Charge (Just the hop): NA (Not sure how to do these)

=====

If these numbers are correct, Sonic loses on shield with a lot of moves. Jeez.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Well I do think Uair2 is the only true safe on Block move we might have given the move is able to be auto-cancelled one frame after the hitbox is active thus giving us normal landing lag allowing us to then Jab someones shield during their shield drop frames.

As for his spin attacks, yesterday when I was practicing with someone I did a low charged SC into their shield and had enough time to let the move stop and was able to move out of the way before they could punish. As I believe our spin attacks now for people to be locked into shield due to the re-hit rate of the move being so quick, which means our spin attacks are safer on shield.

We might also have a potential shield break string with our Spin attacks to dair when the opponents shield is a little over halfway gone.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Dang, those are some really bad numbers..

 

[Sensane]

We might also have a potential shield break string with our Spin attacks to dair when the opponents shield is a little over halfway gone.

As I said, I've done that pre-1.1.1, but they may be easier to pull off. Also, maybe up smash will deal more shield pressure?

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Okay, two things:

1. ASDR and ASC are multihit ONLY on shields. Maybe we could take advantage of this somehow;
2. I've been able to get ASDR to hit twice but I can't seem to be able to consistently replicate it. I've been testing against Bowser on BF - just keep restarting and SDR off the top platform. I think it's ASDR hitting once then almost stopping and then regaining speed and hitting again, all of this while in midair.

 

[Sensane]

Just watched ZeRo's video about this and I think it may make most of Sonic's moves safer on shield because Sonic, being more offensive rather than defensive, will struggle against really good spacers, especially characters like Sheik and Diddy, but now Sonic can go in without fear of being grabbed.

 

[Espy Rose]

...

 

[IWinToLose]

Wow. So with this patch, if I'm understanding correctly, it will be even more difficult to punish Sonic out of Spin Dash?

 

[MarKO X]

I tried my hand at the math... here's what I came up with...

GROUND:

Jab 1: -14
Jab 2: -16
Jab 3: -26
Dash Attack: -45
Dash Attack Final Hit: -39
Ftilt1: -26
Ftilt2: -20 on 7, -21 on 5 (values were posted as 7/5/5 on dmg)
Utilt1: -28
Utilt2: -16
Dtilt: -16
Fsmash: -22
Usmash: -29
Dsmash: -34

Note: at first, I got the same numbers as Espy Rose did, but then I was like, what exactly does FAF mean?
"FAF (First Actionable Frame): First frame on which you can perform another move. This will be the animation's end or the IASA frame if the move has one." - http://kuroganehammer.com/Glossary

So I came to the conclusion that endlag wasn't FAF, but rather [FAF - final frame of active hitbox]. That's how I got those numbers, which still aren't very promising.

===

AERIALS:

Nair1: -8
Nair2: -10
Nair3: -12
Fair: -24
Fair Last Hit: -23
Bair1: -21
Bair2: -23
Uair1: -18
Uair2: -16
Dair1: -32
Dair2: -32
Dair3: -33

Note: I got the exact same thing as Espy here, and I think that these numbers are pretty correct.
Also, in terms of uair, it autocancels one frame after its last active hitbox frame of the second hit, so I do agree with kid craft 24/sonic master that it's probably Sonic's safest move. Sonic's uair does 6 frames of shield stun, and if Sonic's grab is 6 frames, you'd grab at the 8th frame because of 2 frames of landing lag (assuming autocancelling gets the soft landing lag), but my question is... how practical is it to hit a grounded opponent with the second hit of uair?

SPECIALS:

Spring does 5 frames of shield stun
Homing Attack does 9 frames of shield stun
Spin Dash Hop does 5 frames of shield stun
Spin Charge minimum charge
1st hit does 4 of shield stun
2nd hit does 4 of shield stun
3rd hit does 4 of shield stun
4th hit does 5 of shield stun

Spin Charge minimum charge
1st hit does 4 of shield stun
2nd hit does 4 of shield stun
3rd hit does 4 of shield stun
4th hit does 4 of shield stun

I gave shield stun because I have no idea how to calculate how safe our specials are...

Kuroganehammer says that a full charged homing attack is 79 frames long, but it doesn't specify how many frames of lag the homing attack has after it hits (either opponent or shield). Homing attack does do 9 frames of shield stun, which doesn't actually seem to be a whole lot considering how long Sonic is left in the air after bouncing off of a shield...

Spin Dash and Spin Charge would require a deeper knowledge on how those hitbox frames work (a knowledge that I don't have)... some thoughts...

Say I hit your shield with the spindash hop. How safe am I if I continue to roll away vs. if I jump after connecting with your shield?
Say I spin charge. How safe am I if I continue to roll into you vs. jumping after the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th hit?

 

[Furret]

AERIALS:
Uair2: -16

if Auto canceled perfectly (an easy assumption Uair almost always auto cancels) it would be around +1 on shield with soft landing lag, hard landing -1. BTW I have no idea which causes hard or soft landing lag

nothing else has the AC window that Uair has so nothing to talk about there, just felt like putting a number what you were talking about

but my question is... how practical is it to hit a grounded opponent with the second hit of uair?

if shielding not too hard if they are tall

 

[Camalange]

Slow spin roll > slow spin jump/pseudo vertical spin jump from slow spin roll...

... Does significantly more shield damage now, for some reason.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Play the game. Things really arent that different.
All this shieldstun patch amounts to is that sonic is slightly safer on charged smash attacks on block and falling bairs.

Falling up air can guarantee or near guarantee other followups, preferably grab. My two set ups for this are full jump bair, fast fall up air. and full jump fair falling up air.

i might make a video.

all in all most of the things we could do are so hard to set up, that they arent really worthwhile. Te patch really doesnt change things half as much as people are being led to believe

 

[Darklink401]

I think I know what I'm doing, but it's just difficult.
I think I have a better idea about how this works.

I'll make an honest attempt.

So the website with the frame advantage data doesn't really indicate how much shield stun there is from our moves, so that made it hard to figure this out. I hope I did this right. It's a list of our frame disadvantages on hitting shield. I calculated this using First Active Frames on grounded and specials, as given by the Kuro website, and the Landing Lag data for aerials.

=========

GROUND:

Jab 1: -17
Jab 2: -19
Jab 3: -32
Dash Attack: -60
Dash Attack Final Hit: -59
Ftilt1: -32
Ftilt2: -31/-32/-32 (values were posted as 7/5/5 on dmg)
Utilt1: -37
Utilt2: -35
Dtilt: -23
Fsmash: -40
Usmash: -63
Dsmash: -47
===

AERIALS:

Nair1: -8
Nair2: -10
Nair3: -12
Fair: -24
Fair Last Hit: -23
Bair1: -21
Bair2: -23
Uair1: -18
Uair2: -16
Dair1: -32
Dair2: -32
Dair3: -33

SPECIALS:

Homing Attack1: NA (No data for FAF on this one)
Homing Attack2: -71
Spin Dash: NA (Not sure how to do these)
Spin Charge (Just the hop): NA (Not sure how to do these)

=====

If these numbers are correct, Sonic loses on shield with a lot of moves. Jeez.

Is that with or without shield-drop frames being taken into account?

Cuz if they wanted to do something besides jump, shieldgrab, or roll/spotdodge they'd need to take the extra shield-drop frames, which means a spaced aerial might be safe.