A more balanced ssb64?

[WOTG]

If someone were to remake smash 64, how can it be more balanced without completely changing how the characters are played.

I'll start it off

Pikachu - Shorter range on fsmash, less priority on aerials
Kirby - Less priority on most attacks, and less range on some
Fox - Less damage on lasers (possibly 1% per hit)
Captain Falcon - Less range on upsmash
Mario - nothing to change
Yoshi - nothing to change
DK - nothing to change
Jigglypuff - not sure
Ness - Stronger uair, no landing lag on recovery
Link - More forward distance on recovery
Luigi - Stronger fireballs
Samus - not sure

What do you guys think? Discuss

 

[The Star King]

I would take away Falcon's uair but that would completely change the way he is played lol

Kirby - Less range or slower utilt (maybe both)
DK - Make FThrow harder to escape, or give it a larger minimum time to escape
Jigglypuff - Make her last few jumps not super short and more like Kirby's, bair more like Melee's (?)
Link - Make his USmash harder to DI from
Luigi - Mario up-b when not fire hit, IDK but needs more
Samus - Less start-up lag on USmash, less ending lag on fair (take away the stupid flip), bomb does not tak away jump, maybe something with uair

 

[asianaussie]

give luigi a spike d-air with larger sideways range, improve his f-air speed (maybe a chop, like melee?) and possibly range, give down-b some invincibility, give his d-tilt and u-tilt slightly better range, make his dash attack safer on shield

give samus falcon u-air lmao

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

give luigi a spike d-air with larger sideways range, improve his f-air speed (maybe a chop, like melee?) and possibly range, give down-b some invincibility, give his d-tilt and u-tilt slightly better range, make his dash attack safer on shield

give samus falcon u-air lmao

give this guy a medal

 

[The Star King]

Actually an animation like Melee dair but a spike would be pretty cool, and would pop them up like Ness's dair to set up uair chains and stuff. Plus gives Luigi a way to quickly attack grounded opponents from shorthop, because right now you can just take the dair and DI away and Luigi can't do anything because his aerial mobility is garbage

Also make his utilt faster to also easier set up uair chains and maybe make his low % combo game better because it's pretty awful in normal 64

 

[Battlecow]

give luigi a wavedash

normally that word makes me sick in a 64 context, but luigi is that character that just seems like he ought to have one. His movement never seems quite... right in 64.

 

[ciaza]

i'd read the rest of this thread but i'm still imagining how amazingly fun samus would be if she really did have falcon's uair

edit: now i've read the rest. battlecow, do you mean give luigi the wavedash that he has in melee? because if you did not know, it's ****ing massive. the qunt slides so goddamn far.

 

[The Star King]

I'm sure Battlecow knows

But very no @ wavedashing

And please no Falcon's uair is the worst thing ever don't ruin Samus like that

I like the Luigi dair suggestion a lot common guys. Also would improve his edge guarding didn't mention that

 

[WOTG]

We wouldn't want to change how the characters are played, just tweak their current abilities to make it more balanced.

 

[Krynxe]

Samus - combo ability

 

[The Star King]

My suggested Samus Fair improvement would improve her combo ability by allowing her to do fair chains at lower percents, while now she can only do them at high %s. Also maybe she can do stuff like fair -> nair -> charge shot. And retains the general way she's played mostly.

 

[cmu6eh]

Eliminate the B button.

 

[Battlecow]

dude I'm the last person to suggest that melee is in any way a near acceptable substitute for the glory of 64

but luigi in 64 just can't move horizontally, but he still feels so slip-slidey

a WD or some sort of intentional slide just seems like the perfect thing

 

[ciaza]

shield dash

that's 'slip-slidey' enough and way more useful than most people give credit

 

[The Star King]

Because it's not that useful for solving Luigi's approach issues

 

[ballin4life]

One change only: give pika and kirby additional hitstun when they are hit by a move

things like "give samus combos" would completely change the character

 

[Peek~]

Pasting my changes from my social post thread. All of these I would consider smaller patchlike changes. I tried not to make major changes to any playstyles, otherwise why not just remake the character or make a new game.

Spoiler

Ultimate Hyper Super Smash Bros 64 X-2 2012 Arcade Edition

Pikachu
Remove startup invincibility from his B-Up
Make Uair hitbox a bit smaller

Fox
Increase startup/recovery frames for his Laser, making SHDL insanely difficult or impossible unless its a stick short hop
Maybe something with his Jab not sure. Jab/Dtilt/Grab shenanigans are too good ):

Kirby
Utilt smaller hitbox, increase startup and recovery frames
Bair smaller hitbox
Increase recovery frames for Fsmash

Falcon
Fthrow sends them more Horizontal
I was thinking something about his Uair but its probably better to make Usmash have a stronger knockback but even more recovery frames
Running Speed a tiny bit slower

Jiggly
Sing is active the entire time, also harder to get out of for the other character
Turning Slide for her :3

Yoshi, Mario,
No change

DK
Bair has more knockback

Ness
Decrease Recovery frames from his PKThunder landing lag
Slightly faster running speed
Decrease recovery frames for Magnet

Link
(J) version

Samus-Luigi
IDK, slightly faster fall speed?

Ill think of more later. I dont really know what to do for Samus and Luigi, besides just making them faster (running/airspeed/fallspeed/etc.)
Luigi with a single Mario like coin-hit is a good idea. Though trolling characters off-stage with the current single hit is too fun.

 

[ballin4life]

I think making SHDL very difficult or requiring a stick short hop is a bad idea. Making it impossible is fine but if it's just really difficult then you're just increasing the tech skill required. It's such a good technique that it would be worth practicing even if it were very difficult.

 

[Johnknight1]

I'd probably just want to make everyone as good as say Captain Falcon.

But one thing that would maybe make things interesting is if Samus could actually recover and combo. My mind would be blown if that actually happened.

 

[The Star King]

Samus's recovery isn't tha- eh, whatever

One change only: give pika and kirby additional hitstun when they are hit by a move

That sounds janky

I don't really like the idea of changing something that's supposed to be universal to make up for balance issues in other areas. Want to balance them? Fix the original problems, then.

things like "give samus combos" would completely change the character

In a good way. Why would you want to keep Samus comboless?

 

[ballin4life]

Samus's recovery isn't tha- eh, whatever



That sounds janky

I don't really like the idea of changing something that's supposed to be universal to make up for balance issues in other areas. Want to balance them? Fix the original problems, then.

Fixing the "original problems" could very easily make kirby and pika less fun to play. I wouldn't want to drastically change how a character is played.

BTW that's how balance works - you give a character advantages in some areas and disadvantages in others. I'd incorporate some disadvantages rather than nerfing the advantages as this leads to more variety.

Also I don't think hitstun is universal among characters? It seems to me like Falcon has far more hitstun than Mario for example.

In a good way. Why would you want to keep Samus comboless?

Because it would add variety to the game to have a character that isn't all about combos?

 

[The Star King]

Fixing the "original problems" could very easily make kirby and pika less fun to play. I wouldn't want to drastically change how a character is played.

Making Pikachu/Kirby more susceptible to combos can make them less fun to play, too. Anyways, I wouldn't want to drastically change them either.

BTW that's how balance works - you give a character advantages in some areas and disadvantages in others. I'd incorporate some disadvantages rather than nerfing the advantages as this leads to more variety.

You don't need to tell me how balance works. I just don't like the "singling out" of Pikachu and Kirby (changing something previously universal just for those two) because a poor job was done balancing them in more natural ways.

Also I don't think hitstun is universal among characters? It seems to me like Falcon has far more hitstun than Mario for example.

So you think there's some value separate from anything else (such as weight) which determines hitstun of the character being hit? I really doubt it, though I guess I could be wrong.

I think it seems like Mario has less hitstun because he is floaty/lighter, so he is hit further away at a similar %. So at times when he is not knocked too far away to combo, he is usually at a lower % than Falcon is. Falcon is more resistant to being knocked away, so he can be knocked not too far but be at a high enough % for a decent amount of hitstun.

Not sure I explained my thinking well, hope you followed.

Because it would add variety to the game to have a character that isn't all about combos?

Maybe I asked the wrong question. But... if you don't improve Samus's combo game, you will have to make up for it in other ways. Improving Samus's combo game seems like an easy solution to me, but maybe you can come up with something better without drastically changing the character. But if you can't come up with something better, I don't think you should be against an improved combo game enough to prefer leaving Samus a bad character, which is what I meant by my question.

 

[MATTS!]

The Great MATTS! and malva00 has come to terms that smash 64 is AWSOME how it is. Thank You.



The Great MATTS!

 

[ballin4life]

Making Pikachu/Kirby more susceptible to combos can make them less fun to play, too. Anyways, I wouldn't want to drastically change them either.

Sure, but I think that attacking with them is more fun than trying to get out of combos. Making the former worse would have a bigger impact on fun IMO.

You don't need to tell me how balance works. I just don't like the "singling out" of Pikachu and Kirby (changing something previously universal just for those two) because a poor job was done balancing them in more natural ways.

I just don't get the knee jerk reaction against making this kind of change. Making every character the same in some trait means there isn't any variety there. Not that that's necessarily bad but introducing some variety there isn't bad either.

So you think there's some value separate from anything else (such as weight) which determines hitstun of the character being hit? I really doubt it, though I guess I could be wrong.

I think hitstun is currently 100% determined by either weight or floatiness or some combination.

I think it seems like Mario has less hitstun because he is floaty/lighter, so he is hit further away at a similar %. So at times when he is not knocked too far away to combo, he is usually at a lower % than Falcon is. Falcon is more resistant to being knocked away, so he can be knocked not too far but be at a high enough % for a decent amount of hitstun.

Not sure I explained my thinking well, hope you followed.

With Falcon I can fthrow -> full hop double uair -> full hop double uair and it combos on Pika but I can't get it to combo on Mario. Perhaps it's because Mario is ever so slightly floatier so that he gets a little bit higher so he gets that extra split second for the combo to break, but it sure feels like the actual time spent in hitstun is different.

I think I see the same thing when a character gets ground stomped - it seems some characters (the heavy/fast falling ones) are in hitstun for WAY longer. I haven't tested this though.

Maybe I asked the wrong question. But... if you don't improve Samus's combo game, you will have to make up for it in other ways. Improving Samus's combo game seems like an easy solution to me, but maybe you can come up with something better without drastically changing the character. But if you can't come up with something better, I don't think you should be against an improved combo game enough to prefer leaving Samus a bad character, which is what I meant by my question.

I agree with this. I'm just saying that if it's possible I would prefer to make Samus better without shoehorning in new Samus combos.

 

[asianaussie]

so we're making everybody play the same way, but better?

Luigi can have bigger hitboxes on at least his D-air, F-air and one or more of his tilts, because he just floats about and hopes opponents are stupid enough to walk into his empty aerials...oh, maybe better fireballs or something too

Mario doesn't have to change too much, maybe give his fireballs more hitstun, a-la J? (so he can confirm at close-mid range from fireballs and do hype fireball > aerial finishers? idk)

DK...idk, maybe something to do with F-throw, DK is weird and fat and his aerials are already massive enough, plus Up-B is godlike etc

link should throw three boomerangs and shoot two arrows simultaneously and when his bombs explode they turn into homing bombchus and also his up-b shoots magic projectiles and has no landing lag so people will never get close Link gets his J U-tilt and a non-terrible U-Smash (more range on all three hits, especially horizontal range on the second and third, like his melee one maybe), F-Tilt could be faster (well, faster than U-Tilt anyway), remove that idiotic weak hit from the grounded Up-B

Samus lol do you really want to make her play attrition better? That will literally make her a camp and tech punish random hits character, which is boring as hell, just give her more hitstun on some moves so she can do more than F-Air > F-Smash or D-Air > whatever...I guess if that's really what you want, then make her Charge Shot charge faster (and maybe gain little extra shots above and below with full charge? sorta like her metroid incarnations), idk

Falcon doesn't need much balancing, I sorta want to make his F-Air a bit easier to work with, but that's cured by practice mode anyway...maybe make it so F-Throw has more KB or something, making U-Smash (you know, the punishable combo starter) a more attractive choice? oh yeah, and every time he taunts he takes 1% damage because **** you

Ness becomes J Ness, yo

Yoshi...I don't know, a good Yoshi hitconfirms really well and can put 50% on anyone really easily, dunno what you would change about this guy...maybe make F-Tilt faster to recover?

Kirby needs a nerf to U-Tilt's hitbox imo (sideways more than above), make F-Smash more punishable on shield too I guess (it's still a ****** of a move)...to compensate for the U-Tilt nerf, maybe give him an U-Air that's isn't freaking horrid? like jiggs', i guess

Faux is a dirk, yo, idk how he 'should' play because there are like 50 playstyles for him that work, since he's fast and gay and does **** well...hesitant to say much about his laser since it's so integral, maybe make it so there's landing lag for it? would make it a lot harder to abuse at ground height

Pika needs hitbox nerfs, especially on freaking U-Air and maybe U-Tilt/B-Air too...also make landing on the ground with Up-B a lot more punishable, like Ness level punishable maybe (he can still goes so far in that it doesn't hurt him that much)...make D-Tilt better, it's his coolest move ezpz

i don't actually care about jiggs, maybe make her U-Air a not-terrible anti-air and give her Melee B-Air...oh yeah, and jump height I guess, she gets denied recovery so easily

 

[clubbadubba]

giant dk and MM have significantly less hitstun than other chars, so i'm inclined to believe hitstun is a combo of the moves hitstun and some character stat (such as weight/floatiness like ballin said)

 

[The Star King]

Oh, I'm already sure that weight is a factor. Just try to fair -> nair at 0% on Jigglypuff, then on Samus, and you'll notice you have way more time for the former.

But I don't think ballin is simply suggesting a weight change. He's suggesting adding a new variable to the universal hitstun formula which gives Pikachu/Kirby a higher value than usual. Which seems off to me for reasons I've already said. But whatever, maybe I'm just being conservative.

I support making Falcon's FThrow worse at starting combos. But then silly UpSmash spamming Falcons like thegreginator will become even more prevalent (sorry greg).

Also I am opposed to Link J Utilt even though it's better overall, get at me.

Yoshi: make opponents in neutral B take full damage instead of half. Would make Kirby match-up significantly better without affecting the others drastically. I am a freaking genius.

 

[ballin4life]

I feel like Kirby's utilt is part of the game at this point and I would want it to remain. I also don't think Pika is THAT overpowered on the stage - I think it's primarily his recovery being 100x better than everyone else's that makes him the best character.

That's why I favored a way to make these characters more punishable rather than taking away their advantages.

Although I might just be mad about the fact that they are both really small characters. Like if they were the same size as DK I think they'd be 10x easier to hit. So that plus the fact that they get out of combos fairly well (pika upB especially) annoys me.


SK's Yoshi Kirby idea is pretty good btw. In my mind I'm thinking of this as being similar to the Street Fighter HD Remix rebalancing and I know for that Sirlin (the designer) tried to find ways to improve certain bad matchups without drastically affecting the other matchups.

 

[The Star King]

So that plus the fact that they get out of combos fairly well (pika upB especially) annoys me.

I think taking away the Pikachu up-b invincibility both harms his escaping and his recovery, while still keeping his recovery good (if you want to keep their advantages - I personally kind of think they shouldn't be as heavy as Pikachu's recovery compared to everyone else's in original 64).

 

[clubbadubba]

wait, are we saying yoshi's neutral b is good vs kirby? Did not know that but I will try it out. Star King I've been workin on my Yoshi! Its pretty original you'll be so proud.

 

[The Star King]

Depends on which way it is "original" I guess. Actually I am proud of you for working on Yoshi at all lol. He's incredibly fun once everything clicks, I promise. A$ and Boomfan are huge n00bs

Yeah stole that from Sheer. Dealing with Kirby's utilt as Yoshi is dumb but his neutral B beats Kirby's utilt so it's a decent option.

 

[WOTG]

Its simple for me. For Pikachu just decrease priority on all his cheap attacks, same with Kirby. Kirby could also have less range on utilt and maybe dtilt too.
Fox should be the same, his lasers should just do a lot less damage, but have the same hitstun.
Yoshi, Mario, and DK are all fine imo. Jigglypuff could maybe have a bit more priority on her nair, or maybe have a stronger rest.
Luigi could have a shorter shorthop, plus more hitstun on his fireballs like the japanese version. That way it can probably increases his approach ability.
Samus more hitstun on fair and uair? It might increase her combo ability without totally changing the character.
And I think Ness having no landing lag on his recovery would improve it; once you get on the stage, you'll be able to react and defend yourself. He could also have a stronger uair kinda like the japanese version, that could increase his approach and finisher. And Link can just have much more forward distance on his upb, his recovery is his biggest problem.

 

[M!nt]

Jigglypuff could maybe have a bit more priority on her nair, or maybe have a stronger rest.

This sounds terrifying.

 

[WOTG]

Maybe. How can jigglypuff be better?

 

[The Star King]

Already said how, Kirby jumps and Melee bair. Doesn't need a huge boost to be on Mario/Yoshi level

 

[clubbadubba]

Depends on which way it is "original"

Mainly excessive use of dtilt spacing. Boom said yoshi was fun at apex. We'll get A$ soon

 

[ciaza]

puff's melee bair beats ****ing everything, i reckon it'd be slightly op in 64 since it could probably lead into dair>death or something or rather

 

[ballin4life]

I think taking away the Pikachu up-b invincibility both harms his escaping and his recovery, while still keeping his recovery good (if you want to keep their advantages - I personally kind of think they shouldn't be as heavy as Pikachu's recovery compared to everyone else's in original 64).

Yeah I'd be on the fence about that. I guess I wouldn't mind my change plus that change.

I've thought sometimes that if Pika's upB were only one teleport instead of two that it would still be the best recovery in the game. That's probably too big of a change though IMO.

On another note I don't like Ness's japanese uair since it's hard to combo with sometimes (hits them too far away). I guess it's nice that it kills sooner though.

 

[asianaussie]

Mainly excessive use of dtilt spacing. Boom said yoshi was fun at apex. We'll get A$ soon

i like your yoshi already

 

[Surri-Sama]

The Great MATTS! and malva00 has come to terms that smash 64 is AWSOME how it is. Thank You.



The Great MATTS!

I have to agree with MATTS...this cant be!!!

Spoiler

Fix pikachus glitched recovery on the right side of DL