B Move Edge Momentum Shifts

[Tyr_03]

As you may or may not know, different special moves in Brawl have strange effects on momentum when used while running off the edge of a stage or platform. Most notable of these are Mario's cape and Lucas's PK Thunder. Here are videos showing both. These techniques are done by running toward the edge of any stage or platform and just as you are approaching the edge, but before you step off, using the B move.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yCkv2A4Oe9s
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ytvd1mUeQps

After considerable testing I have compiled a list of moves that this is possible with. Not all of these are incredibly useful and work to varying degrees.

After further testing I have also discovered that any sliding or boost B move can be reversed to switch your momentum in the opposite direction. To do this, as you approach the very edge of a platform or stage, press the B move you want and then very quickly slam the analog stick back. The timing differs between B moves and some of them are extremely fast. This works with most B moves from the edge of platforms or stages. It does NOT work with PK Thunder and a few others for some reason. This uses the same general principle of B reversals used in the air to change momentum but is different in that it is done from the very edge of a stage or platform rather than in the air. This means that moves that have different effects when used on the ground rather than in the air will have the ground effect while being used in the air such as the Ice Climbers' down B. In addition, boosted B moves still have the same distance boost from the edge but reversed in the opposite direction.

Both momentum shifts shown in video by Kupo15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16e40V2L6hU

Stop = The B move initially stops all momentum when used on the ground.
Edge Stop = The B move allows the character to slide but forces the character to stop when it reaches the edge of a stage or platform
Slide = The B move will allow the character to slide off of the edge of a platform or stage keeping the intial horizontal momentum from running.
Boost = The B move when used off the edge of a platform or stage increases horizontal momentum sending the character further than he normally would go.
Cancel = The B move cancels entirely, showing the very begining of the move but then not executing it.

Mario
Standard - Slide
Forward - Boost
Down - Edge Stop
Up - Stop

Donkey Kong
Standard - Slide
Forward - Boost
Down - Edge Stop
Up - Slide

Link
Standard - Edge Stop
Forward - Boost
Down - Edge Stop
Up - Cancel/Slide*
Link's Up B will cancel if you charge it and you slide into a ledge but if you begin the move before you slide off will result in a falling Up B

Samus
Standard - Cancel/Slide*
Forward - Cancel/Slide*
Samus's standard and forward B moves will both cancel if the shot has not come out when she hits the edge but will slide if the shot has begun to come out when she has reached the edge.
Down - Stop
Up - Stop

Kirby
Standard - Edge Stop
Forward - Cancel
Down - Edge Stop
Up - Stop

Fox
Standard -Edge Stop
Forward - Slide*
Sliding Fox's Forward B will sometimes cause him to move down a little before using it. I don't know why.
Down - Slide
Up - Boost

Pikachu
Standard - Edge Stop
Forward - Stop
Down - Boost
Up - Stop

Marth
Standard - Edge Stop
Forward - Slide*
Sliding Marth's Forward B will sometimes cause him to move up a little and other times won't. It seems to move him up slightly more than just using forward B in the air. I don't know why.
Down - Stop
Up - Stop

Mr. Game and Watch
Standard - Slide
Forward - Boost
Down - Boost
Up - Stop

Luigi
Standard - Slide
Forward - Slide
Down - Slide
Up - Stop

Diddy
Standard - Edge Stop
Forward - Stop
Down - Boost
Up - Edge Stop

Sheik
Standard - Boost
Forward - Stop
Down - Slide
Up - Boost

Zelda
Standard - Slide
Forward - Slide*
Zelda's Forward B while used in the air automatically makes her float a little bit. I can only assume that is what is happening here rather than a boost.
Down - Slide
Up - Stop

Pit
Standard - Slide
Forward - Slide
Down - Slide
Up - Cancel

Metaknight
Standard - Slide
Forward - Stop
Down - Slide
Up - Stop

Falco
Standard - Edge Stop
Forward - Slide
Down - Slide
Up - Boost

Squirtle
Standard - Stop
Forward - Slide
Down - Stop
Up - Stop

Ivysaur
Standard - Edge Stop
Forward - Slide
Down - Stop
Up - Edge Stop

Charizard
Standard - Stop
Forward - Edge Stop
Down - Stop
Up - Stop

Ike
Standard - Edge Stop
Forward - Edge Stop
Down - Edge Stop
Up - Stop

Snake
Standard - Edge Stop/Slide*
Snake's Standard B move will stop at the edge if he is still holding the grenade but will continue sliding if he is in the process of throwing it.
Forward - Slide
Down - Edge Stop/Slide*
Snake's Down B move will stop at the edge if he has not yet layed a C4 but will continue sliding if he's is activating the C4.
Up - Stop

Peach
Standard - Slide
Forward - Boost
Down - Slide
Up - Stop

Yoshi
Standard - Boost
Forward - Stop
Down - Stop
Up - Slide*
Increased forward motion I assume is due to the properties of Yoshi's Up B rather than the abnormal boost of other B moves.

Ganondorf
Standard - Stop
Forward - Stop
Down - Slide
Up - Slide

Ice Climbers
Standard - Cancel
Forward - Slide
Down - Slide
Up - Slide

King Dedede
Standard - Stop
Forward - Edge Stop
Down - Slide/Edge Stop*
If Dedede is in the process of charging the hammer he will continue sliding but if in the process of swinging will stop at the edge.
Up - Slide

Wolf
Standard - Edge Stop
Forward - Slide*
Wolf's Forward B if used while sliding off an edge will cause him to go down a little before starting the move in the same manner as Fox's. I don't know why.
Down -Slide
Up - Boost

Lucario
Standard - Edge Stop
Forward - Edge Stop
Down - Stop
Up - Slide

Ness
Standard - Slide
Forward - Cancel
Down - Slide
Up - Slide

Sonic
Standard - Stop
Forward - Stop
Down - Edge Stop
Up - Stop

Bowser
Standard - Edge Stop
Forward - Cancel
Down - Stop
Up - Slide*
As in Yoshi's case I assume the horizontal increase is due to the properties of the move rather than a boost.

Wario
Standard - Slide (falls immediately)
Forward - Stop/ Slide*
If the Bike is available Wario stops to jump on but if it's missing he slides.
Down - Slide
Up - Stop

Toon Link
Standard - Edge Stop
Forward - Boost
Down - Edge Stop
Up - Cancel/Slide*
See Link's Up B

ROB
Standard - Edge Stop
Forward - Edge Stop
Down - Stop
Up - Stop

Olimar
Standard - Slide
Forward - Slide
Down - Slide
Up - Slide

Captain Falcon
Standard - Stop
Forward - Stop
Down - Slide
Up - Slide

Jigglypuff
Standard - Stop
Forward - Stop
Down - Edge Stop
Up - Edge Stop

Lucas
Standard - Boost
Forward - Stop
Down - Slide
Up - Boost

Zero Suit Samus
Standard - Edge Stop
Forward - Edge Stop
Down - Stop
Up - Edge Stop

If you have any questions or notice any errors, leave a post and I'll respond when I have a chance. Keep in mind that the timings on some of these are difficult. Also note that some characters have very little sliding distance and that the effects may not be noticable unless done on ice.

 

[mzero00X]

whoa.. interesting

 

[kupo15]

Hey I was just testing this out last night also. I want to let you know that Toon link's Neutral (arrow) is not a stop. It is a slide.

I believe this has great potential. I decided to make a video of all of the possibilities of my mains. (Except Pit cause he doesn't really have any) almost done

 

[Tristan_win]

Great finding but you seem of forgot about Zamus(zero suit Samus), please add her information to the list.

 

[Depressed Man]

Sweet, I gotta try this when I get to play Brawl again.

 

[Tyr_03]

I added Zero Suit Samus. Completely forgot about her. I tested Toon Link's bow again to be sure and as far as I can tell it is still an edge stop. At any point in the bow animation Link and Toon Link will stop when they reach an edge. This was tested on Summit because the ice makes characters slide longer if a move allows it. Toon Link will slide along the surface until he reaches an edge at which point he will stop moving. I then retested this on Battlefield at 1/4 speed. If the move is used at any point while Toon Link is still on the platform he will stop when he hits an edge. What you may be doing is using his standard B immediately as you leave the edge making it seem as if he is sliding.

 

[Mann]

There's weird stuff that happens on stages when trying to come back on.

I'll try and upload a video when I get home, but if you try to recover with Falcon on let's say FD, if you do it in some way and land on the ground the momentum from jumping back on the stage makes him slide. Up+B

 

[Tristan_win]

****, so all of her moves make her stop at the ledge huh?

Well anyways thank you Tyr for testing all of this and even though I really don’t think this is sticky worth information I truly hope this gets listed in the future "Everything you need to know for brawl" thread and many others.

 

[TheLake]

Good stuff good stuff

 

[Tyr_03]

This topic is deeper than I first thought. I just found out through some testing that any sliding or boosting move can be done backwards... It's both terrifying and exciting. For those of you who are curious it's done by running off the ledge, doing the B move forward and then quickly pressing back. It seems akin to the B move turn around and B-sticking somehow but I really don't understand what's going on. You get the same momentum boost that you would normally only in the opposite direction. very strange.

 

[Ørion]

Nice data, this could have serious affect on strategy in the meta-game.

 

[kupo15]

I have uploaded a video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16e40V2L6hU

You may have to wait for it to process.

 

[Tyr_03]

Edit - added information on reverse momentum shifts. Some vids of it would be nice if someone has the time.

 

[kupo15]

My vid already covers this if it works...

 

[Tyr_03]

I couldn't get the video to work. Didn't know if it had it or not.

 

[kupo15]

Its working now

 

[.Sinn]

wow very nice find

 

[Tyr_03]

Great video Kupo15. I'll add it to the thread. Thanks a lot. This should make it a lot clearer to people how useful it can be.

 

[kupo15]

Thanks and your welcome!

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

I'm confused about the neutral B's, in that you've described the momentum reversal only on the ground or just after running off a platform/edge. In case you didn't already state this, the momentum reversal from the B's can be done entirely in the air, at any time when you have momentum. I'm saying this because i didn't notice momentum reversal on the ground myself. Ie, with marth's neutral B. maybe a little bit. I felt it was MUCH more pronounced with a short hop/full jump. I have it recorded on my Wii, i'll get vids up sometime in the next few days.

 

[Tyr_03]

This thread is focused more on the momentum change effects from sliding off of platforms. The reversal from platforms technically only occurs with B moves that slide or boost your momentum. Almost all B moves can reverse momentum while in the air but only a select few can do this while still technically on the platform. The boosted B moves will still increase momentum when reversed giving you more of a momentum change than is possible just from jumping. However, if you post vids I'll be happy to include normal aerial momentum shifts to the thread just so we have it all in one place. Just be aware that these are two seperate things. If you're unclear on if there is actually a difference between the two you can use the Ice Climber's down B as an example. Ice Climber's down B will have them both facing the same way if used in the air but facing opposite directions if used on the ground. The fact that they can have their momentum sliding and reversed and still be facing opposite directions proves that this technique was done from the platform rather than the air. Moves that do not slide, or that stop at the edge must be done from the air and cannot be done from platforms although it can be done from just barely off the platform as in the case of Toon Link's bow shown in the video. I need to test B moves to figure out for sure which ones can't be reversed at all. I think this thread warrants a sticky.

 

[kupo15]

Try Game and Watches Bucket first. I couldn't get the reverse motion with that like I did for the hammer.

 

[Tyr_03]

Some of these are turning out to be really useful. DK's reversed punch is crazy good. And his boosted over B makes a wicked spike. I found a way to desync the ice climbers sliding their down B as well. I'm starting to think this might really turn into something.

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

This thread is focused more on the momentum change effects from sliding off of platforms. The reversal from platforms technically only occurs with B moves that slide or boost your momentum. Almost all B moves can reverse momentum while in the air but only a select few can do this while still technically on the platform. The boosted B moves will still increase momentum when reversed giving you more of a momentum change than is possible just from jumping. However, if you post vids I'll be happy to include normal aerial momentum shifts to the thread just so we have it all in one place. Just be aware that these are two seperate things. If you're unclear on if there is actually a difference between the two you can use the Ice Climber's down B as an example. Ice Climber's down B will have them both facing the same way if used in the air but facing opposite directions if used on the ground. The fact that they can have their momentum sliding and reversed and still be facing opposite directions proves that this technique was done from the platform rather than the air. Moves that do not slide, or that stop at the edge must be done from the air and cannot be done from platforms although it can be done from just barely off the platform as in the case of Toon Link's bow shown in the video. I need to test B moves to figure out for sure which ones can't be reversed at all. I think this thread warrants a sticky.

It's not a normal momentum shift. Normal momentum shift from jumping would be juming while running forward and then holding back. You pass through a stop and then build back reverse momentum. Doing a smashed reverse neutral B will instantaneously reverse momentum. As an example, if I jump with running momentum and then immeidately hold back, i will essenstially land in the same place I jumped. With the momentum smash neutral B reversal, I can get much farther back than i would by just holding back.

In fact, you yourself have already proved my point. The reversal in momentum is what you get when running off the edge and doing the smashed reverse neutral B. However, ou seem to be under the impression that this exact same phenomenon can be obtained only by running off the edge. The EXACT same strange instantaneous momentum change can be obtained ANY time in the air. IE from a short hop. and in the air, it's much greater than doing it while on the ground. So if i'm on FD, there are no platforms to run off, but instead of doing the grounded smash reverse neutral B, I short hop it, and get MUCH more momentum transfer. I'll make comparisons of those later.

 

[whoady4shoady]

Good post. Thanks for all the testing you did.

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

I realized what we've found is a weird form of wavebouncing, with the neutral b, except it turns you around.

 

[Shukudai]

the "momentum switching" you're talking about is just a B-reversal applied to the new (admittedly wicked) platform slide-off technique.

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

the "momentum switching" you're talking about is just a B-reversal applied to the new (admittedly wicked) platform slide-off technique.

How many times do i have to say this, and why is it so hard to grasp? You don't need a platform at all for what I'm talking about. You could do a full jump or short hop and do it.

 

[kupo15]

ChRed2AKrisp. You are right. You don't need a platform to do what you are talking about. This thread is about the extra momentum you get from using a special off of a ledge. Thats it. Be Mario, run, do a short hop and use his cape in the same direction and note how far you go. Now go to a ledge and just before you fall off the platform, perform his cape and see how much further you go.

That is all this topic is about but we (myself included) are finding ways to manipulate that extra boost.
Test two. Run, do a short hop, and change your momentum back doing what you described and note how far in the opposite directions you go. Now do the same thing after running off a ledge and note that you go considerably farther with some people like Game and watch and Pikachu.

What you are talking about is nothing new which I think we all agree with, but the application of using the momentum shift in conjunction with the extra boost from the ledge is what's new and applicable.

So if i'm on FD, there are no platforms to run off, but instead of doing the grounded smash reverse neutral B, I short hop it, and get MUCH more momentum transfer. .

Very True. But then the edge of the stage would be the platform this thread is talking about. And may I also add that this technique does use the first jump like yours does, but instead, we use up the first jump to give us more initial horizontal motion than yours which give you more initial vertical motion.

I hope this answers your question!

 

[Tyr_03]

We're all quite aware that momentum can be reversed at any time in the air using B moves in the same fashion. The boost from some B moves off platforms however creates a greater momentum shift than anything that is possible by doing it just out of a jump. And yes this technique is based off the B reversal tech. It's just a useful application of it. Again I would be happy to add information on momentum shifts from the air to the thread if someone makes a good video of it. That way we can just have all the information in one place. This is kind of a strange phenomena common in many B moves but with slightly differing effects. We're all talking about the same thing but used in different ways. Many of these I think can be applicable in different situations.

 

[Shukudai]

CHRed, um, i don't think you read my post very carefully. I said nothing about platforms.

Tyr : it's just that in your OP you didn't mention anything about using the B reversal, and made it sound like you thought you discovered an old technique.

i made a B-reversal demo vid a few days ago, it's not great quality but it shows "momentum switching".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4jLW9ZxPR4

 

[Tyr_03]

I reworded a few things on the reversals so that maybe it'll be a little clearer that there's a difference between this and the regular B reversals. There seriously needs to be some renaming of some of these techs. There's atleast 5 different names for half of them. The entire tactical board is completely disorganized. Hopefully at some point the guys in the back room will take some initiative to standardize some of this and make it clear to people just trying them out. If anyone can think of a name or a title to give the thread to make things more clear feel free to comment.

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

CHRed, um, i don't think you read my post very carefully. I said nothing about platforms.

Tyr : it's just that in your OP you didn't mention anything about using the B reversal, and made it sound like you thought you discovered an old technique.

i made a B-reversal demo vid a few days ago, it's not great quality but it shows "momentum switching".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4jLW9ZxPR4

the "momentum switching" you're talking about is just a B-reversal applied to the new (admittedly wicked) platform slide-off technique.

I beg to differ :D

BUt anyways i was confused because you mentioned the b-reversal when running off an edge in the OP, which is the same as when you jump and do it. I understand that the majority of the thread isn't related to this, i just felt since it was the same mechanic I should point you didn't need an edge for the b-reversal momentum change.

 

[Tyr_03]

yep I know. Just a misunderstanding. No worries. I think the boost off the ledges really will make a substantial difference with some characters especially when they can be reversed. Slow characters like DK and Link can really take advantage of the speed this adds. We'll really have to wait for some big tourneys to see what people can put to good use though.

 

[whoady4shoady]

Mario is now a bad Man.

 

[.Sinn]

whats with the changed names?....prob april fools

 

[TriforceCore]

This is amazing especially with mario

 

[Mistake]

Too many times have I accidentally gone rocketing off the edge with Pikachu's Down B, in hopes that the thunder attack would hit an opponent trying to recover... most of the earlier times I was taken too off-guard to recover successfully myself... shame

 

[3GOD]

This thread really deserves more attention.

THIS IS NOT "JUST B REVERSAL."

The momentum boosts from some moves are really unique, and the ability to reverse the momentum boost should definitely be investigated in regard to its usefulness and practicality.

I find that the reversal of the momentum is pretty easy with "B-sticking" the moves, but is also possible with a standard control scheme. At least, I've been able to reverse the momentum from Toon Link's boomerang and bow using the standard control scheme, but it seems ridiculously difficult to master without B-sticking.

PS - To the topic creator, yes I mentioned Toon Link's bow. The timing seems very tight, but it provides what I would call the "slide" effect if you perform it right at the edge. You have it listed as a "stop" move, so you might want to edit that.

 

[Tyr_03]

3GOD I'll have to retest that but I was pretty sure it stopped. The way I tested many of the more difficult to input ones like this was doing the move on Summit so that you'll continue sliding a much longer distance to the edge. Sliding and boost moves will allow you to fall off while stopping ones will stop you at the edge. If I remember right the bow just comes out really fast right after you're off the ledge so it can look like it's sliding. I'll check it later today though just to be sure.

And yes some of these are amazingly useful while others are simply interesting to know. I'd be interested to see what Toon Link and Link players can do with the boomerang boost especially. I don't play those characters much so I haven't put them to much use.

I do them all without B-sticking. Just takes some practice.