Man, I’ve been meaning to do this for ages… here goes :o
This is the "official" thread where us Wolf mains will put down our opinions on the first BBR MU chart so that when the time comes to work on the second chart, the BBR will have a better idea of what needs to be reconsidered
In case you haven't seen the original BBR MU thread, you can find it here. For reference, here is Wolf's current BBR MU spread:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:
The number change is a bit confusing at first, so here's a quick guide on what they mean taken directly from the BBR MU thread:
[collapse="What the numbers mean"]-4: (close to) unwinnable
-3: large disadvantage/hard countered
-2: medium disadvantage
-1: small disadvantage
0: even
+1: small advantage
+2: medium advantage
+3: large advantage/hard counter
+4: (close to) unloseable[/collapse]
To avoid this thread from getting derailed and discussing matchups, I'm going to ask that we keep it to ONE POST PER PERSON. If you want to discuss MUs, vote for it in the MU thread and wait for the export, or go to the social ;D By keeping this thread one post per person, it'll be a lot easier for the BBR to scan through and collect information. If you want to change your opinions, you can just go back and edit your post (I'll post a warning bump when the BBR is thinking about starting V2 so everyone can make final edits to their opinions if they want to).
Anyways, that’s about it. Try to use a clean/organized format, and back up the things you say to the best of your ability. Here’s my post below in case you want a reference, but as I said the format really isn’t important as long as it’s somewhat organized and easy enough to read.
[collapse="Sample post (or, more like my post lol)"]WARNING: To avoid namesearchers, I'm putting hyphens between names. Just sayin'.
-3 to -2: Wario being worse than D3 is hard to imagine, especially since the cg can only be started in a certain % range (except he can buffer pivot grab us to go from 0-260 or something lol…). Aside from that, Wario's general lack of disjoints mean that shine is pretty effective vs his aerials (as is crouching > shine/usmash (OoS) when he SHs at you imo), and since our bair and fair outreach his (along with fair's disjoint) we can do quite well in the air. If camping a platform above him, he’ll obviously be going for uairs so drop>shine or jump away to the side so you can beat him with horizontal range, I don’t play any top Warios but it seems to work well enough. A lot of this match should be taking place in the air, and from what I’ve seen/been told, proper SDI and good spacing makes it hard for Wario to land the grab. SA on his fsmash makes it easy to kill on a bair read, and his heavy weight makes it tough for us to kill him, but when you consider that the grab should be very hard to land (like, maybe once a stock imo, but then again I’ve never played top Warios much) there’s no reason for this to be past -2. Wolf has a significantly easier time avoiding a grab from Wario than he does from D3, and even though the punishment is worse, it doesn’t mean much if the grab never lands. But against D3, it’s just, you have to play so safe ;___; bleh. This isn’t the place for me to get into that, but yeah. Wario <= D3 imo.
-3 to -2: Same thing as I said for Wario, Pikachu being worse than D3 is hard to imagine 
cg fails if started past ~60%, and (iirc) requires you to land on the ground and suffer those few frames of landing lag for it to be effective, meaning you can camp the sides of platforms or right next to the ledge to avoid being cged (or just good old platform camping). Only true grab setups are fair and utilt I believe, I'm going to test out SDI > jumpshine to get out of both when I get the chance. Note that I don’t have any Pikachu experience so… yeah >___> These are just my current thoughts, but I’ve never seen high level Wolf vs Pikachu, so just throwing out opinions.
-2 to whatever Wario/Pikachu are on: Pretty sure this is our worst MU, even if “perfect play” from Wolf makes him almost impossible to grab. Risk/reward is so skewed, especially if the smallstep/buffered pivot grab infinite/ledge infinite are allowed. With the right CPs Wolf can do fine, and outside of the CG there really isn’t much of a serious threat, but yeah, as I said it’s risk/reward.
-1 to -2: I'm actually pretty certain that MKs could do a lot better if they just learned the MU, and this probably goes for a lot of their "generous" MUs. Tornado can be a huuuuuge issue if used properly to bait an ill-timed shine (not that hard with shine restricting our aerial mobility and tornado buffing MK’s aerial mobility), and the invincibility from grounded shuttle loop ruins everything imo -___- Not that we have a "bad" MK MU compared to the rest of the cast lol, still top 10 or so without a doubt. But really, I want to see a good MK really learn this MU, because Wolf does well but MK can just do so much better.
-1 to +1: What does G&W even have on Wolf? I've seen JJ play Vin-nie after massive rust and rollcario johns, and I've played GI-MR after cold finger + other bs johns Not to say that these are 100% accurate representations of the MU, but both of us did pretty well, especially considering the skill gaps. Also, recent vids of Seagull vs G&Ws only strengthen my opinion. G&W gets hit by a DACUS if he attempts to bucket something, gets gimped by dthrow relatively close to the ledge at high %s since his light weight means he'll travel pretty far before hitting the ground for a tech, and at mid/low %s he's actually not so hard to juggle (idr exactly what I did, but from around 50-60% I juggled GI-MR to the top of Lylat with uairs and killed him with a fair at 80% before the hit, it was actually hilarious lol). G&W can’t reliably land a kill, is too slow with most moves, can’t rack up damage too well once you SDI bair/nair, and (if the Wolf is quick) gets usmashed OoS for a lot of things. Idk, I just never feel like G&W is controlling the match.
-1 to 0: He does have solid tilts/range/disjoints which is a pain, and if you aren't good with your DI there's some risk of getting gimped, but ROB in the air is basically free bair chains, juggling, etc. Once you get ROB in the air, he's in serious trouble. Killing can be tough for ROB as well, and imo Wolf racks up damage better so... Idk, even sounds pretty reasonable.
/:shielda: -1 to 0: Putting them together since Zelda really doesn't help much at all since we're +3 with her Basically, the only thing Sheik has that makes this "bad" is the ftilt lock. Which is % dependent, staleness dependent, and extremely difficult to hit Wolf with. I've versed a few Sheik secondaries so I really don't know about how top Sheiks land ftilts, but it seems to be hella hard. I'm going to do some testing when I can to confirm that Wolf can get out of the final usmash with downB, but if Sheik can't even land a kill move out of the lock... yeah, have fun living past 160 every stock Needles are good, being ridiculously fast is good, but there's next to nothing significant on her side besides the lock. It's like how ZSS has that dsmash chain, but we still go basically even with her (imo we might win by a bit, but not enough to justify +1... yet) since she can't reliably hit us with it.
0 to +1: Seagull's recent achievements speak for themselves. Peach has a killing problem, and her only true hope comes from low % strings or a good nair to intercept our sideB. I don't have anything to say that Seagull won't say, so I'll leave the rest to him I suppose. At least +1 though :x
+1 to 0: It might be a bit in Wolf's favor, but I don't think it's enough to push it into the +1 category. Then again, there are still a lot of quirks to this MU... I'm no expert, I played da-buz in tournament and took game 1 only to get 2-stocked the next two games :/ What I learned is that you shouldn't go fishing for the kill, and... that's about it lol, idr what else even works against Olimar.
+1 to +2: Bair. Really. Luigi has such a hard time getting in :/ Once he's there he definitely does decent work, but since jab > upB isn't guaranteed on Wolf you don't need to worry so much about early deaths (nair and up-angled fsmash are the main killers imo, and a lot of the time they'll catch you with it during a trade with your bair soooo... be careful for that I guess). Double aerials are a pain imo, but since they have small disjoints jumpshine works well to counter. DownB approaches can be stuffed by lasers, generally predictable recovery can be stopped by lasers (sideB) and shine (dj downB, upB). Even if Luigi manages to get close, his mobility is so poor that you can literally just jump away :/ Definitely a solid advantage just because of the hurdles Luigi is forced to jump over to actually do something.
+1 to +2: He doesn't have a solid answer to bair either imo. I still haven't played a top Lucas, but I've played against Ato-msk's and a decent amount of other Lucas players. Either they don't know enough about the MU or it's a solid advantage. Main way Lucas will be looking to land early-ish kills is from a read with a smash, or FHFF dair > dtilt lock > smash, both of which can be avoided by safe playing and SDI/teching. Aside from that, fair and uair can kill but don't hit as early and still aren't the quickest/easiest to land.
+2 to +3: What can Falcon even do X_x Bair pisses him off to no end. Not to sound mean at all, but Falcon has nothing going for him in this MU as far as I can see. I know Ato-msk isn’t a Falcon main but I was playing him in friendlies quite a while ago and, basically, he was not amused.
+2 to +3: Seriously though... we weigh so much more and have better range with our fair/bair... even if all we do is trade aerials, it's pretty simple to win when we live a good 50%+ longer than her and have more variety in our kill moves. Laser prevents something stupid from happening with rollout, close range/ground game is more or less lol since all she really has on the ground is grab... her floatiness helps jab mixups but you have to be careful for her using fair/nair when you cancel (shield > usmash trololol ). Good DI prevents gimps, shine beats out her lack of disjoints, just... there is really nothing Jigglypuff can do to turn the tables. She can't even plank us if she miraculously gets the lead because reflector > pound, although you have to be careful about falling into a bad position after that.[/collapse]
Aaaaaaaaand there ya go. Post your thoughts, Wolf mains
This is the "official" thread where us Wolf mains will put down our opinions on the first BBR MU chart so that when the time comes to work on the second chart, the BBR will have a better idea of what needs to be reconsidered
In case you haven't seen the original BBR MU thread, you can find it here. For reference, here is Wolf's current BBR MU spread:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:
The number change is a bit confusing at first, so here's a quick guide on what they mean taken directly from the BBR MU thread:
[collapse="What the numbers mean"]-4: (close to) unwinnable
-3: large disadvantage/hard countered
-2: medium disadvantage
-1: small disadvantage
0: even
+1: small advantage
+2: medium advantage
+3: large advantage/hard counter
+4: (close to) unloseable[/collapse]
To avoid this thread from getting derailed and discussing matchups, I'm going to ask that we keep it to ONE POST PER PERSON. If you want to discuss MUs, vote for it in the MU thread and wait for the export, or go to the social ;D By keeping this thread one post per person, it'll be a lot easier for the BBR to scan through and collect information. If you want to change your opinions, you can just go back and edit your post (I'll post a warning bump when the BBR is thinking about starting V2 so everyone can make final edits to their opinions if they want to).
Anyways, that’s about it. Try to use a clean/organized format, and back up the things you say to the best of your ability. Here’s my post below in case you want a reference, but as I said the format really isn’t important as long as it’s somewhat organized and easy enough to read.
[collapse="Sample post (or, more like my post lol)"]WARNING: To avoid namesearchers, I'm putting hyphens between names. Just sayin'.
-3 to -2: Wario being worse than D3 is hard to imagine, especially since the cg can only be started in a certain % range (except he can buffer pivot grab us to go from 0-260 or something lol…). Aside from that, Wario's general lack of disjoints mean that shine is pretty effective vs his aerials (as is crouching > shine/usmash (OoS) when he SHs at you imo), and since our bair and fair outreach his (along with fair's disjoint) we can do quite well in the air. If camping a platform above him, he’ll obviously be going for uairs so drop>shine or jump away to the side so you can beat him with horizontal range, I don’t play any top Warios but it seems to work well enough. A lot of this match should be taking place in the air, and from what I’ve seen/been told, proper SDI and good spacing makes it hard for Wario to land the grab. SA on his fsmash makes it easy to kill on a bair read, and his heavy weight makes it tough for us to kill him, but when you consider that the grab should be very hard to land (like, maybe once a stock imo, but then again I’ve never played top Warios much) there’s no reason for this to be past -2. Wolf has a significantly easier time avoiding a grab from Wario than he does from D3, and even though the punishment is worse, it doesn’t mean much if the grab never lands. But against D3, it’s just, you have to play so safe ;___; bleh. This isn’t the place for me to get into that, but yeah. Wario <= D3 imo. -3 to -2: Same thing as I said for Wario, Pikachu being worse than D3 is hard to imagine cg fails if started past ~60%, and (iirc) requires you to land on the ground and suffer those few frames of landing lag for it to be effective, meaning you can camp the sides of platforms or right next to the ledge to avoid being cged (or just good old platform camping). Only true grab setups are fair and utilt I believe, I'm going to test out SDI > jumpshine to get out of both when I get the chance. Note that I don’t have any Pikachu experience so… yeah >___> These are just my current thoughts, but I’ve never seen high level Wolf vs Pikachu, so just throwing out opinions. -2 to whatever Wario/Pikachu are on: Pretty sure this is our worst MU, even if “perfect play” from Wolf makes him almost impossible to grab. Risk/reward is so skewed, especially if the smallstep/buffered pivot grab infinite/ledge infinite are allowed. With the right CPs Wolf can do fine, and outside of the CG there really isn’t much of a serious threat, but yeah, as I said it’s risk/reward. -1 to -2: I'm actually pretty certain that MKs could do a lot better if they just learned the MU, and this probably goes for a lot of their "generous" MUs. Tornado can be a huuuuuge issue if used properly to bait an ill-timed shine (not that hard with shine restricting our aerial mobility and tornado buffing MK’s aerial mobility), and the invincibility from grounded shuttle loop ruins everything imo -___- Not that we have a "bad" MK MU compared to the rest of the cast lol, still top 10 or so without a doubt. But really, I want to see a good MK really learn this MU, because Wolf does well but MK can just do so much better. -1 to +1: What does G&W even have on Wolf? I've seen JJ play Vin-nie after massive rust and rollcario johns, and I've played GI-MR after cold finger + other bs johns Not to say that these are 100% accurate representations of the MU, but both of us did pretty well, especially considering the skill gaps. Also, recent vids of Seagull vs G&Ws only strengthen my opinion. G&W gets hit by a DACUS if he attempts to bucket something, gets gimped by dthrow relatively close to the ledge at high %s since his light weight means he'll travel pretty far before hitting the ground for a tech, and at mid/low %s he's actually not so hard to juggle (idr exactly what I did, but from around 50-60% I juggled GI-MR to the top of Lylat with uairs and killed him with a fair at 80% before the hit, it was actually hilarious lol). G&W can’t reliably land a kill, is too slow with most moves, can’t rack up damage too well once you SDI bair/nair, and (if the Wolf is quick) gets usmashed OoS for a lot of things. Idk, I just never feel like G&W is controlling the match. -1 to 0: He does have solid tilts/range/disjoints which is a pain, and if you aren't good with your DI there's some risk of getting gimped, but ROB in the air is basically free bair chains, juggling, etc. Once you get ROB in the air, he's in serious trouble. Killing can be tough for ROB as well, and imo Wolf racks up damage better so... Idk, even sounds pretty reasonable./:shielda: -1 to 0: Putting them together since Zelda really doesn't help much at all since we're +3 with her Basically, the only thing Sheik has that makes this "bad" is the ftilt lock. Which is % dependent, staleness dependent, and extremely difficult to hit Wolf with. I've versed a few Sheik secondaries so I really don't know about how top Sheiks land ftilts, but it seems to be hella hard. I'm going to do some testing when I can to confirm that Wolf can get out of the final usmash with downB, but if Sheik can't even land a kill move out of the lock... yeah, have fun living past 160 every stock Needles are good, being ridiculously fast is good, but there's next to nothing significant on her side besides the lock. It's like how ZSS has that dsmash chain, but we still go basically even with her (imo we might win by a bit, but not enough to justify +1... yet) since she can't reliably hit us with it. 0 to +1: Seagull's recent achievements speak for themselves. Peach has a killing problem, and her only true hope comes from low % strings or a good nair to intercept our sideB. I don't have anything to say that Seagull won't say, so I'll leave the rest to him I suppose. At least +1 though :x +1 to 0: It might be a bit in Wolf's favor, but I don't think it's enough to push it into the +1 category. Then again, there are still a lot of quirks to this MU... I'm no expert, I played da-buz in tournament and took game 1 only to get 2-stocked the next two games :/ What I learned is that you shouldn't go fishing for the kill, and... that's about it lol, idr what else even works against Olimar. +1 to +2: Bair. Really. Luigi has such a hard time getting in :/ Once he's there he definitely does decent work, but since jab > upB isn't guaranteed on Wolf you don't need to worry so much about early deaths (nair and up-angled fsmash are the main killers imo, and a lot of the time they'll catch you with it during a trade with your bair soooo... be careful for that I guess). Double aerials are a pain imo, but since they have small disjoints jumpshine works well to counter. DownB approaches can be stuffed by lasers, generally predictable recovery can be stopped by lasers (sideB) and shine (dj downB, upB). Even if Luigi manages to get close, his mobility is so poor that you can literally just jump away :/ Definitely a solid advantage just because of the hurdles Luigi is forced to jump over to actually do something. +1 to +2: He doesn't have a solid answer to bair either imo. I still haven't played a top Lucas, but I've played against Ato-msk's and a decent amount of other Lucas players. Either they don't know enough about the MU or it's a solid advantage. Main way Lucas will be looking to land early-ish kills is from a read with a smash, or FHFF dair > dtilt lock > smash, both of which can be avoided by safe playing and SDI/teching. Aside from that, fair and uair can kill but don't hit as early and still aren't the quickest/easiest to land. +2 to +3: What can Falcon even do X_x Bair pisses him off to no end. Not to sound mean at all, but Falcon has nothing going for him in this MU as far as I can see. I know Ato-msk isn’t a Falcon main but I was playing him in friendlies quite a while ago and, basically, he was not amused. +2 to +3: Seriously though... we weigh so much more and have better range with our fair/bair... even if all we do is trade aerials, it's pretty simple to win when we live a good 50%+ longer than her and have more variety in our kill moves. Laser prevents something stupid from happening with rollout, close range/ground game is more or less lol since all she really has on the ground is grab... her floatiness helps jab mixups but you have to be careful for her using fair/nair when you cancel (shield > usmash trololol ). Good DI prevents gimps, shine beats out her lack of disjoints, just... there is really nothing Jigglypuff can do to turn the tables. She can't even plank us if she miraculously gets the lead because reflector > pound, although you have to be careful about falling into a bad position after that.[/collapse]Aaaaaaaaand there ya go. Post your thoughts, Wolf mains
