Character Archetypes in Smash Bros.

[Deleted member]

I wasn't entirely sure WHERE to make this, as it's the series in general, not just one game, but I opted for Smash 4 sub-forums so we can get some speculation going.

Anyway:
So, if you've played other fighters you can draw parallels to other games' characters in similarities not just in abilities, but also in their general combat strategy. Therefore, in lieu of this, I feel we should make a comprehensive analysis of the different characters in Smash and other fighters to try and pin them down to certain categories. Just for discussion and the like. I want to see what the Smash Community can come up with. I'm basically going to rip from this forum: (http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/list-of-fighting-game-archetypes.156294/) and expand on their speculation but also change a couple things.

I feel the two main ranks in fighters break down into A. Offensive, and B. Defensive. Basically, Defensive characters are reactive, while Offensive characters are proactive. In laymans terms, it boils down into who's chasing who, and who is better at avoiding/guarding. These two then break down in to 4 more categories being: Balanced, Rush Down, Grapplers, and Zoners. With an extra "Dynamic" category to describe characters with unique quirks and gimmicks that affect their play-style. Those 5 then break down into the unique archetypes that describe how each character plays, an their preferred strategy.

So lets get down to it:
OFFENSIVE:
Characters in this category tend to prefer an offensive style over a defensive one, they tend to be the ones chasing down the their opponent, rather than otherwise.

Balanced:
Easy to learn, good at everything, have both short range and long range technique as well as easy to execute killing moves, plenty of simple techniques, and tend to have NO obvious weaknesses (if they have them at all), however, they're usually the "jack of all trades, master of none" archetype, in that they don't really excel in anything, but are prepared for everything, because of this they can do very well in both offensive and defensive play. Usually the character most people pick up the first time they play the game.
Ex.
[COLLAPSE="Ryu, Sol, Ragna, etc..."]

[/COLLAPSE]
In Smash Bros, it's obviously Mario , he even follows the Ryu 'Shotokan' archetype by the book (Fireball, Uppercut, Tornado).

Rush Down:
Fast characters that specialize in close range combat and combos/juggling. Offensive only, that's the defining trait here, even if they use some long range attacks, they're always on the offense.

-Momentum (chokers): Hyper close range (in-your-face) characters, with low defenses, or Close/Mid range characters with "sweet spots" both with very offensive play, usually exploit openings and weaknesses in their foes with fast speed and punish them with high damage combos. Once they get going it's hard to stop them. Also, hit-and-run characters fall under this, as most Momentum characters, start with hit-and-run tactics until they can really get going. Those are the defining traits, for this reason this archetype is full of fast characters.
Ex.
[COLLAPSE="Cammy, Fei Long, Makoto (BB), Noel, etc..."]

[/COLLAPSE]
In Smash, Fox and Sheik fit best under here. Marth is another good example.

-Mix Up: Do best in close range, but rely on tactics and mind games to exploit their opponent's weaknesses. Are sometimes equipped with some mid-long range moves for Zoning and are generally more well rounded than Momentum characters, however, not the the extent that Balanced characters are as they can't play defensively, and have much more obvious/exploitable weaknesses.
Ex.
[COLLAPSE="El Fuerte, C.Viper, Urien, Akuma etc..."]

[/COLLAPSE]
Falco and Lucario come to mind as decent examples.

-Beatdown: Fast powerhouses with high damage output, usually great characters with great normals and specials. They are indeed close range characters and usually have 0 long range attacks, they differ from the Momentum characters in that they don't exploit weaknesses, they just jump in and do tons of damage, and don't necessarily need long complex combos to do so.
Ex.
[COLLAPSE="Maxima (KOF), Azrael (BB), Jam, Makoto (SF), Heihachi (SFxT) etc..."]

[/COLLAPSE]
Captain Falcon , hands down.

DEFENSIVE:
The opposite of offensive characters, Zoners, Long-range users, Pokers, Grapplers, Item Users, and Turtlers all all under here. Their defining trait is that they usually avoid their opponent and bait them into exploiting their weaknesses from a distance before delivering a punishing blow.

Zoning:
They use tools and projectiles to fight, they usually don't rely on their own speed and power to fight, and wear their opponents down indirectly/from a distance.

-Pokers: Mid range characters that can pick off opponents slowly from a safe distance, exploiting their superior range to wear down (and annoy) their opponents. The can't be Snipers nor Turtles as they lack the range to be completely safe from harm. Many Mix-Up characters can also fall under here, as they also rely heavily on mind-games, however, they tend to favor a defensive fighting style over an offensive one.
Ex.
[COLLAPSE="Chun-Li, Sagat, Nu-13, etc..."]

[/COLLAPSE]
Not to sure on this one for Smash, Ike is too slow to fit in here, but then again, so is Sagat.

-Sniper: Long range weapons/projectile users, simple as that. Use projectiles to pressure their opponents to behave how they want them to, and are well equipped for close range combat in order to take down a tired opponent (though they do best from afar), but can also rely entirely on their projectiles to destroy their opponents with out ever needing to get close. They are usually equipped with projectiles/mid-long range killers. However, they normally face their opponent when attacking, unlike trap layers, who are more mind-game oriented.
Ex.
[COLLAPSE="Testament, Dizzy, Venom, Jin, etc..."]

[/COLLAPSE]
In Smash these are clearly Link and Samus .

-Trap Layer: Usually avoid their opponents (though not always) and lay traps that put a lot of pressure on their opponents, have a lot of indirect options to constantly keep their opponents on their toes. They differ from Snipers in that they can attack while facing away and evading their opponents, and that they excel in multi-tasking, usually stringing combos with their traps and their close range moves. They're also much more difficult to use than Snipers as they rely heavily on keeping a lot of pressure and mind-games.
Ex.
[COLLAPSE="Arakune, Rachael, Mu-12 etc..."]

[/COLLAPSE]
Snake and Diddy Kong are the best examples, though they represent two different variations of the archetype (heavy and fast).

-Turtle: Basically a more long range version of the Poker, I don't think this archetype exists in Smash Bros as these characters don't normally have explicit "killing moves." They're super defensive characters that focus on wearing their opponents down completely by hitting them from afar/with indirect moves. They differ from Pokers in that, Poker's shorter range forces them to be more offensive, but also can't be Snipers as they don't attack with projectiles, but rather with long range weapons that push/pull opponents, or with their own body. Their long range attacks also tend to go in a straight line. Hit-and-run tactics are also common here with characters such as Hazama and Axl, especially since their long range attacks aren't very powerful. These characters are usually very very poor at close range (with Hazama being an exception), but they are very fast at close range, however, they tend to deliver killing blows from a distance.
Ex.
[COLLAPSE="Dhalsim, Billy Kane, Axl Low, Hazama"]

[/COLLAPSE]

-Puppeteer/Tag-Team: You simultaneously control two entities in one form or another, they have less range than most other Zoners, and mastering them is usually a very daunting, yet rewarding task. Generally suffer from low defenses, but not always.
Ex.
[COLLAPSE="Carl, Relius, Eddie, etc..."]

[/COLLAPSE]
Ice Climbers , simple as that, moving on.

Grapplers:
Grappling is usually a large part of their game. Usually forced into defensive play because of their slow speed and inferior jump (though not always), but make up for it with very powerful moves, and very little hit-stun. They essentially wait for their opponents to get in close to punish them for it.

-True Grapplers: You know them, you either like them or hate them. The big heavy-weight dudes with Counter Throws that hurt like a *****. Usually have some decent, mid-range pokes that hurt, and force their opponents to "close the gap," thus baiting them into the position you want them. Generally have very little hit-stun thanks tho their size/weight.
Ex.
[COLLAPSE="Zangeif, Iron Tager, Potemkin, etc..."]

[/COLLAPSE]
King Dedede is the best example of this in Smash Bros I believe, though I guess Bowser fits, he's just a poorly made example of the archetype, hopefully he gets buffed in Smash 4.

-Semi-Grapplers: Faster characters that have a huge Grapple focus, but also have very strong POWER moves to mix up their play, they're actually more offensive than defensive, but, oh well... Essentially the offensive grappler. Also equipped with a high defense and little hitstun, however lack the speed to be Beatdown characters, and the long-range to be Balanced or Mix-Up. Due to being grapplers they prefer close range, however they are much faster than the True Grappler and therefore prefer a more offensive play-style.
Ex.
[COLLAPSE="She-Hulk, Abel, Alex (SF3), Bullet (BB:CP)"]

[/COLLAPSE]
These don't exist in Smash I don't think. At least not a true iteration. Mewtwo :mewtwo: comes to mind, but he's too slow and lacked strong moves to make up for it, though, he was an expert in grappling back in Melee (had the longest grab-reach if I recall correctly), I'll toss him in here for argument's sake, however, when compared to the other examples, he does a bad job at representing the archetype. DK fits a bit better here.

-Heavy Powerhouses: The heavyweight (defensive) "Beatdown" character. Slow characters that have very high damage output/knockback, with little hitstun. They're different from Grapplers in that, well, they don't grapple. Being more defensive characters they also have very good defense and little hitstun. They have power that is generally superior to that of Semi-Grapplers and Beatdown characters, but severely lack in the speed department, thus making them reactive characters.
Ex.
[COLLAPSE="M. Bison, Balrog, E. Honda, Sentinel, Astaroth"]

[/COLLAPSE]
Melee's Ganondorf is the best example, though Brawl's, Ganondorf is the same premise, he was nerfed so much, he hardly lives up to the name. Ike is a good example in Brawl.


Dynamic:
Finally, the Dynamic, sub-archetype, basically a unique quirk or ability that a character has, that affects their play strategy directly, like Voldo's stances for example, therefore, following this, Kirby's transformation is not intrusive enough to fall under this category, but Zelda's is. Most characters fall under another category, while having this in addition.

-Power Up: Need to charge up a meter in order to use their stronger attacks. It divides into two sub-archetypes, Passive charge where the meter fills up by itself, or through normal action (Jin; Hakumen), and Active Charge where you have to take time to charge it yourself (Tsubaki).
Ex.
[COLLAPSE="Tsubaki, Hakan (SSF4), Frank West, Order Sol, etc..."]

[/COLLAPSE]
Samus , G&W , and Lucario are decent examples, with G&W and Samus having chargeable moves, and Lucario having a passive ability that makes him stronger. Wario's fart falls under this.

-Ammo Users: Have certain moves that require recharging in order to be used, or are depleted completely when used up. The difference between Power-Up characters and Ammo users is that Ammo users lose abilities without their "Ammo" where as Power Up characters still retrain their abilities but can make them stronger. Guilty Gear's Jam is a great example of a Power Up character in that she has commands which boost her kicking power or her punching power, likewise Tsubaki in BB can use her Drive to power up her specials. Ammo characters on the other hand, lose abilities completely when they lack the ammo, and must therefore be more resource minded.
Ex.
[COLLAPSE="Aegis (P4A), Johnny (GG), Bang Shishigami, Robo-Ky, Petra (Arcana Heart 3), etc..."]

[/COLLAPSE]
Olimar is a great example of an Ammo user in Smash, as he's totally useless without his Pikmin.

-Transformers: Characters that can transform to change their properties completely, basically a two-for-one character than covers two archetypes by transforming. However there's usually some sort of penalty for transforming, delay before/after/during transformation, cost of health, temporary transformation that needs to be charged, etc...
Ex.
[COLLAPSE="Valkenhayn, Shang Tsung (MK), Charade (SC), Double (Skullgirls) "]

[/COLLAPSE]
In Smash, Zelda/Sheik , Samus/ZSSamus, Pokemon Trainer. We need more of these to be honest.

-Stance Users: It's like a half-transformation, the character's properties don't change, but they get access to other moves that give them more options when changing stances.
Ex.
[COLLAPSE="Voldo, Gen (SF), Hwoarang (Tekken), etc..."]

[/COLLAPSE]
These don't exist in Smash Bros, sadly, but they should...

-Counter-Users: Characters that are very reactive that have a counter Gimmick tossed in which can counter enemy moves when attacked.
Ex.
[COLLAPSE="Hakumen, Baiken, etc..."]

[/COLLAPSE]
In Smash both Marth and MetaKnight have this (and Ike to a lesser extent), and can use it proficiently, though I do wish we got a character that can be more focused on this gimmick.

-Joke Characters: Can be good or bad, but have unique animations that make them a bit comical as they ridicule their opponents with their fighting style, they're normally purposefully bad (if they're bad).
Ex.
[COLLAPSE="Dan (SF), Mr. Satan (DBZ), Arale (DBZ), Doronjo (TvC), etc..."]

[/COLLAPSE]
In Smash, Pichu ichu:, G&W , and Wario are good examples.

Anyway, these are not definitive Archetypes, as there are some hybrids, but it is a good way to look at characters, this is especially good for speculation. First we should attempt to rank the current characters that have appeared in the 3 current Smash games, but then also attempt to speculate popular wants for Smash 4, and try and see what their ideal, or proposed play style would be.

As it Stands:
Balanced:






Momentum:







Mix Up:








Beatdown:



Pokers:
:random:
Snipers:







Trap-Layers:


Turtles:
:random:
Puppeteer/Tag-Team:


True-Grapplers:


Semi-Grapplers:


:mewtwo:
Heavy Powerhouses:




DYNAMIC Sub-Archetype:
Power Up:



Ammo Users:

Transformers:



Stance Users:
:random:
Counter Users:



Joke Characters:


ichu:



Not yet ranked:


Feel free to add you opinions and to suggest characters to be moved changed etc... Potential newcomers for Smash 4 are valid as well.

[COLLAPSE="Potential Newcomers"]
Lyn:

Momentum with a heavy Counter Dynamic (Like Hakumen, but offensive, fast and with more mobility, less range, the Battousai character).

Mach Rider:

Beat Down Stance User (A contrast to C.Falcon, but able to use his Bike which will give him access to different moves).

Lip:

Poker with "Poison" Abilities (lots of mobility described as a "Magical Girl" to Falcon's Kamen Rider).

Toad:

Lightweight Beatdown (the "Glass Cannon").

Palutena:

Balanced Sniper with some mid-range attacks, maybe with some Trap-Laying (I think of Dizzy+Mu-12, hopefully she's well made)

Masked Link:

Transforming Character, duh. (Well balanced transformer, Light, Heavy, Medium, mid-range, shorth range, long range, this guy has everything covered, broken? Not so much really).

Diddy and Dixie:

Lightweight Tag Team + Stance User (a contrast to the Ice Climbers, the lead Monkey can change thus changing some of their abilities, Diddy Lead = Mix-Up a la Brawl, Dixie Lead = Mix-Up, but different).

Saki:

Stance User+Mix-Up (can switch between Gun and Sword to go from Long Range Blasts to Mid Range Slashes, some Gun Attacks are close range with heavy impact a la Noel Vermillion).

[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Diddy Kong]

Great thread. However, I don't think characters in Smash really fit in these sort of archetypes perfectly cause of the way Smash works. It isn't a traditional fighter, though I feel some characters easily fit multiple categories. And lots of characters have lots of options. A character in Smash is 'usually' good if they have more than one option, to be less predictable.

Diddy for example is also a rush-down kinda character, same with MetaKnight. Melee Jiggz could also fill in this role. And Falco is also a kind of zoning character, same with R.O.B perhaps.

 

[Kink-Link5]

There's only really four aspects that go into Smash characters, and I guess you could describe characters as having archetypes if they have extremes in those aspects

Mobility- The ability to move in and out of range quickly, verticall, horrizontally, in the air, on the grund, or anything else. The ability to "Bait" moves basically.

Safety- How advantageous or disadvantageous a character is on hit, whiff, crouch cancel, and shield. Has a correlation with damage due to how shield stun is calculated, as well as a correlation with ending lag. It ties into mobility in characters like Jigglypuff that can safely use moves while staying out of range.

Coverage- Where hitboxes cover a character's hurtbox and beyond, as well as startup speed, start up invincibility, super armor, and other such attributes that can also generally be called "Priority." Melee Fox Shine can be described as a move with perfect coverage.

Stage/Space Control- Any combination of area denial, long-range pressure, the ability to cover a wide section of the stage at once (Think a dash dancing Fox instant SH nair) and ability to influence how your opponent must approach you. Coverage ties into this aspect as well when disjointed moves are considered.


There aren't archtypes so much as trends. Characters with high degrees of the above are universally top tier threats, while characters with low amounts of any of them are universally bad.

 

[Opossum]

Just as a question, are there really any newcomers that can fit in with a stance archetype? Opinions? Thoughts?

 

[Diddy Kong]

That's pretty much what I tried to say Kink-Link5 lolz.

As for newcomers, Little Mac could easily be a rushdown type character. Palutena a zoner perhaps? Chrom could be a mixup character, like Marth. King K.Rool, a grappler? Though K.Rool could easily just be about anything if done right.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Olimar is in many aspects, a stance character. Characters that summon items could be described as going into a stance with very limited melee moves and no grabs as well.

Oh, potential newcomers you meant. I thought you meant Brawl newcomers.


Bowser Jr. is a character that can be taken in pretty much any direction. He could be a stance character that, for example, has one moveset normally, but can take out his paint brush with down B to gain a different set of moves. To avoid complications with Kirby, his standard B could be a fireball or something of the sort in both stances.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Impa (Skyward Sword) could use stances as well I feel, as I felt her fighting style would suit those character's fighting styles as well. And it would also be a sort of 'throwback' to Sheik's fighting style, seeing as Zelda and Sheik where interchangable, and Impa would inherrit some of those aspects by changing stances (one which would very much resemble Sheik's playstyle or example).

 

[Deleted member]

Great thread. However, I don't think characters in Smash really fit in these sort of archetypes perfectly cause of the way Smash works. It isn't a traditional fighter, though I feel some characters easily fit multiple categories. And lots of characters have lots of options. A character in Smash is 'usually' good if they have more than one option, to be less predictable.

Diddy for example is also a rush-down kinda character, same with MetaKnight. Melee Jiggz could also fill in this role. And Falco is also a kind of zoning character, same with R.O.B perhaps.

There's only really four aspects that go into Smash characters, and I guess you could describe characters as having archetypes if they have extremes in those aspects

Mobility- The ability to move in and out of range quickly, verticall, horrizontally, in the air, on the grund, or anything else. The ability to "Bait" moves basically.

Safety- How advantageous or disadvantageous a character is on hit, whiff, crouch cancel, and shield. Has a correlation with damage due to how shield stun is calculated, as well as a correlation with ending lag. It ties into mobility in characters like Jigglypuff that can safely use moves while staying out of range.

Coverage- Where hitboxes cover a character's hurtbox and beyond, as well as startup speed, start up invincibility, super armor, and other such attributes that can also generally be called "Priority." Melee Fox Shine can be described as a move with perfect coverage.

Stage/Space Control- Any combination of area denial, long-range pressure, the ability to cover a wide section of the stage at once (Think a dash dancing Fox instant SH nair) and ability to influence how your opponent must approach you. Coverage ties into this aspect as well when disjointed moves are considered.


There aren't archtypes so much as trends. Characters with high degrees of the above are universally top tier threats, while characters with low amounts of any of them are universally bad.

Well, these archetypes aren't clear cut in ALL fighters either, in fact, many of the characters I gave as examples may or may not fit perfectly into said archetype. Check the link to the forum I posted, you'll see some discussion on that very topic going on. Not to mention, many characters are usually hybrids of one or more archetype. Like Diddy Kong, he's a trap layer, but also doubles a Mix-Up. Snake on the other hand is also a Trap Layer, even more so than Diddy, but does great as a Heavy Weight-Powerhouse. Very few characters are definitive of their archetype, so I just say try and focus on the one that resonates MOST with that character to keep things simple.

Still I think the archetypes are a great way of looking at the roster, in order to have a nice balanced roster that has many different playing strategies. I especially like how the Arksys games tend to have many Dynamic characters, more so than most other fighters.

That's pretty much what I tried to say Kink-Link5 lolz.

As for newcomers, Little Mac could easily be a rushdown type character. Palutena a zoner perhaps? Chrom could be a mixup character, like Marth. King K.Rool, a grappler? Though K.Rool could easily just be about anything if done right.

Palutena is definitely going to be a Zoner (Sniper) imo. She may even be the definition of it in Smash, our first GOOD Sniper I hope. When I see Palutena, I think of Dizzy.

Little Mac might work as either a Mix-Up or Beatdown, but yeah, definitely Rushdown.

Chrom will either be Mix up, or Balanced, though given some suggestions I've seen he COULD be a Stance-User, or a Power-Up character.

K.Rool most likely a Grappler, though he could also double as a Zoner of some sort, perhaps our first Turtle?

Anyway, thoughts on our current characters? I still have a lot to categorize, where do you think the likes of Pika, and Lucario, and Peach should go for example?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I'd say Peach is a somewhat defensive character. lucario could be a sniper/ dynamic based on his power up relating to the more damge he takes/ lives lost

 

[Big-Cat]

Excellent thread, ManlySpirit. This was much needed for discussion. If you ask me though, I feel some characters are misplaced or some types are not explained well enough.

Mixups is a fairly abstract archetype as there is a number of ways to go about being a mixup character. Trappers, stance characters, even snipers have the potential to be mixup characters. The key thing is that they have numerous situations where defending a high, low, or throw on either side is left up as mostly a guess.

Case in point, El Fuerte is, in my eyes, a footsies mixup character where he excels at whiff punishing with his mobility and this can also be applied to Xiaoyu of the Tekken series especially with her ability to crush certain attacks from certain stances, evade many moves, and simply dance around the opponent in general. Meanwhile, Viper is more of a long range mixup character and will mixup her approaches with her burning kick. Then there's also characters like Abel who can mixup their approach closeup and this also applies to Anna, the Koreans, and the Capos of Tekken.

IMO, just on range alone, Marth is a poking character like Chun-Li (sans fireball). It also helps that he's very well designed in general, just like Chun-Li.

@Diddy
For the most part, the fighting game archetypes are still in Smash, most with certain differences due to the game mechanics, but some key aspects of certain archetypes are completely omitted for whatever reason. For example, command moves in fighting games are scary because they can't be escaped outside of 3D fighters. In Smash Bros., there is no distinction between them and there needs to be one. Another is high-low-throw mixups are not present in the same way as the shield covers the entire character's body and high-low mixups really only show up when the shield has shrinked significantly.


In my opinion, Olimar could be revamped into a potentially powerful stage control character. Zelda, based on Project M, could work as an excellent Smash version of Skullgirl's Parasoul or even Mu-12 or Rachel Alucard.

For potential newcomers:
Krystal - Poke heavy with great edgeguarding ability.
Tom Nook - Trapper, especially in the y axis, but also very deadly up close ala Street Fighter's Makoto.
Lip - All around trapper.
Toad - Smash El Fuerte or She-Hulk easily.
Kumatora - Smash C. Viper
Ridley - Aerial mixups.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd say Peach is a somewhat defensive character. lucario could be a sniper/ dynamic based on his power up relating to the more damge he takes/ lives lost

Peach definitely strikes me as a defensive character as well, a zoner to be more precise, but not sure where exactly she falls in there, she's a sort of mix of them. However, she's not a trap layer in the same sense Rachael is, despite having the same mobility.

Lucario is better at close range though, he might be a mix-up like Marth as he has some long range options. He definitely has a variation of the power-up dynamic archetype with his passive ability.

Excellent thread, ManlySpirit. This was much needed for discussion. If you ask me though, I feel some characters are misplaced or some types are not explained well enough.

Mixups is a fairly abstract archetype as there is a number of ways to go about being a mixup character. Trappers, stance characters, even snipers have the potential to be mixup characters. The key thing is that they have numerous situations where defending a high, low, or throw on either side is left up as mostly a guess.

Case in point, El Fuerte is, in my eyes, a footsies mixup character where he excels at whiff punishing with his mobility and this can also be applied to Xiaoyu of the Tekken series especially with her ability to crush certain attacks from certain stances, evade many moves, and simply dance around the opponent in general. Meanwhile, Viper is more of a long range mixup character and will mixup her approaches with her burning kick. Then there's also characters like Abel who can mixup their approach closeup and this also applies to Anna, the Koreans, and the Capos of Tekken.

IMO, just on range alone, Marth is a poking character like Chun-Li (sans fireball). It also helps that he's very well designed in general, just like Chun-Li.

@Diddy
For the most part, the fighting game archetypes are still in Smash, most with certain differences due to the game mechanics, but some key aspects of certain archetypes are completely omitted for whatever reason. For example, command moves in fighting games are scary because they can't be escaped outside of 3D fighters. In Smash Bros., there is no distinction between them and there needs to be one. Another is high-low-throw mixups are not present in the same way as the shield covers the entire character's body and high-low mixups really only show up when the shield has shrinked significantly.


In my opinion, Olimar could be revamped into a potentially powerful stage control character. Zelda, based on Project M, could work as an excellent Smash version of Skullgirl's Parasoul or even Mu-12 or Rachel Alucard.

For potential newcomers:
Krystal - Poke heavy with great edgeguarding ability.
Tom Nook - Trapper, especially in the y axis, but also very deadly up close ala Street Fighter's Makoto.
Lip - All around trapper.
Toad - Smash El Fuerte or She-Hulk easily.
Kumatora - Smash C. Viper
Ridley - Aerial mixups.

You're right, Mix-Up is a rather versatile archetype, the big distinction between them and some Zoners is that Mix-up is offensive, where as Zoning tends to be more defensive, compare Mu-12 to Noel in Blazblue, or Noel to Jin. Jin falls more under Zoner as he needs to turtle a bit before he can really start attacking, where as Noel is ready to go offensive from the get-go. Mix-Ups vary from other Rushdown characters in that they have some Long/Mid-Range options at their disposal which allow them to use some mind games to create opportunities, where as other rushdowns not so much, as you said with Marth, his range makes him more of a poker, like Chun-Li, however, unlike Chun-Li, Marth is more offensive than her. Following this definition, Lucario and Falco, and even Wolf all fall under Mix-Up.

Also, keep in mind, that as mentioned in the linked thread, the most populated archetype in fighters tends to be Rushdowns, so expect a lot of the current roster to fall in there somewhere.

EDIT:
Krystal definitely strikes me as a Poker, with some Zoning capabilities perhaps, but mostly mid-range focused.
Tom Nook and Lip as trappers? What makes you say so? I can see Tom Nook being on, but Lip?
Toad as either a Mix-Up or a Fast Grappler, interesting, I would like to see a quick grappler in Smash, but it's hard to picture Toad as one. What kind of moveset do you have in mind?
Ridley I personally see as more of a hybrid between a Heavy Grappler with a Poker/Sniper, with a good amount of mobility. So perhaps he could be the Fast Grappler.

In addition to this, I'm gonna add mine:
Lyndis as the Momentum+Counter-User Hybrid, a true iteration of the counter-user more akin to Baiken and Hakumen.
Takamaru as a Mix-Up with some Sniper abilities, more akin to GG's Baiken if you ask me, but without the counter mechanics, more like a "trick up my sleeve character" perhaps he could fall under balanced because of this.
Masked Link as an obvious Transformer.
Mach Rider as a Stance User that allows him to blend Sniper abilities with Beatdown tactics.
Diddy+Dixie duo as an obvious Tag-Team.
Saki as a Stance user between gun and sword.
Bayonetta as a Mix-Up
Simon Belmont as a Heavy Powerhouse with some Poking mixed in.

 

[Big-Cat]

In that case, Marth is more of a Fei-Long. He even has a rekka .

And yes, the most popular archetypes tend to be the more offensive types. This makes sense as most people are inclined to go on the offense immediately. I was like this way for years before I got serious with fighting games - meaning I really knew what I was doing. Meanwhile, I'm more of a mobility-mixups-whiff punishing type now which can be really seen in my Xiaoyu/Jaycee team. And is Noel really a mixup character? I heard she really wasn't one.

While not an archetype in itself, frame traps is another important character trait that should be mentioned.

 

[BKupa666]

>Bowser not listed as a turtle :trollface

K. Rool as a Grappler / Turtle / Sniper hybrid would be delicious.

Bowser Jr. may be a Trap Layer / Turtle hybrid, in that he lays down paint traps, then baits opponents over them with ranged prods.

 

[Deleted member]

Noel... well, she can't go all out until she can exploit a weakness, however once she does, she's unstoppable. However, she can't be a Momentum character as she prefers to stay at a sweet spot before coming in, and her mid/long range moves let her create openings with mind-games. Compared to Jam for example, or Cammy, how are more of a constant onslaught and hit-and-run tactics. Though, Noel can be argued for the Momentum archetype as well. She does have a lot of similarities to Cammy, I just find her to me more like Marth in her playstyle, though Marth could also be a Momentum character, but Marth is very different from Fox and Sheik in the way HE plays.

EDIT: Now that I've given it some thought, I gotta say you're right Kuma, Noel and Marth are more like variations of the Momentum characters, simply because the defining trait of those is the fact that they can combo really well. Mix-Up on the other hand is a very offensive character that is more mind-games focused, just like El Fuerte and Viper, they tend to have more options when fighting. However, they have more glaring weaknesses than the balanced character who in fact usually have NO weaknesses and are prepared for all situations. Balanced characters also have the benefit of being able to play both defensively and offensively real well, something all Rushdowns can't do.

 

[kikaru]

Though I feel like it would be difficult to incorporate, having a mounted character would definitely be interesting. (Though very unlikely to happen) I'm sure there are a lot of unexplored mechanics that could be utilized.

 

[Deleted member]

Though I feel like it would be difficult to incorporate, having a mounted character would definitely be interesting. (Though very unlikely to happen) I'm sure there are a lot of unexplored mechanics that could be utilized.

Mounted? You mean like Mach Rider?

n fact I just got inspired, here's the idea:

I'll mostly use Kamen Rider moves and their names for simplicity.

Mach Rider
B=Blaster, Kamen Rider is a good reference. Shoots the enemy with a beam, similar to Falco's in speed and delay, but it's more "explosiony"

>/<+B=Rider Chop, it's got a very "slashy" animation
http://kamenrider.wikia.com/wiki/Rider_Chop

^+B=Rider Kick
http://kamenrider.wikia.com/wiki/Rider_Kick
We got plenty of variations to work with, like the Sky Kick for example, especailly since it's ^+B, it's gotta be a recovery move somehow.

v+B=Mach Bike, Mach Rider mounts his Mach Bike.

Other than that, all his Neutrals and Aerials and the like are taken from Kamen Rider as reference, just like C.Falcon, but with obviously, different moves.

FS= Rider Shooting
http://kamenrider.wikia.com/wiki/Rider_Shooting


On the Mach Bike:
Mach Rider can't jump, nor do Grabs and Neutral Attacks, he can only move and do Specials, if hit too hard, he gets knocked off. Jumping and v+B dismount the bike. By "can't jump," what I mean is he can't jump with the bike, he can jump off the bike like Wario can.

B=Blasters (from the Bike), he shoots forward with the blasters on his bike, obviously a superior version of his regular Blaster.
>/<+B= Wheelie, Mach Rider does a wheelie on his Mach Bike that hits the enemy, the effect of this move is essentially like a Bull Charge. Both the upward strike and the "falling" hurt the enemy, the downward motion being more like a "crush." More effective while in motion, and it speeds up his "running speed" when doing so.
^+B= Missiles, he fires missiles upward (at a 60* angle) from his Bike.
v+B= Dismount Bike.

Thoughts? I'm thinking of making a support thread for him if there isn't one and posting a whole complete movepool like I did for Lyn. I'm starting to really like this character.

 

[kikaru]

Mach Rider.... Didn't think of that one. I was thinking animal mounted like a Pegasus.

 

[Big-Cat]

Noel... well, she can't go all out until she can exploit a weakness, however once she does, she's unstoppable. However, she can't be a Momentum character as she prefers to stay at a sweet spot before coming in, and her mid/long range moves let her create openings with mind-games. Compared to Jam for example, or Cammy, how are more of a constant onslaught and hit-and-run tactics. Though, Noel can be argued for the Momentum archetype as well. She does have a lot of similarities to Cammy, I just find her to me more like Marth in her playstyle, though Marth could also be a Momentum character, but Marth is very different from Fox and Sheik in the way HE plays.

Momentum seems like another abstract concept to me. Going with more SF examples, any of the mixup characters in SF4 have mostly 5-5 against each other as the one who gets the first knockdown pretty much wins. Sheik and Fox would be closer to just classic Rushdown.

I think Beatdown would be better described as characters with explosive close ranged power like Street Fighter Makoto or Heihachi in Street Fighter X Tekken.

It sounds like Noel is kind of a whiff punishing character.

 

[Deleted member]

Momentum seems like another abstract concept to me. Going with more SF examples, any of the mixup characters in SF4 have mostly 5-5 against each other as the one who gets the first knockdown pretty much wins. Sheik and Fox would be closer to just classic Rushdown.

I think Beatdown would be better described as characters with explosive close ranged power like Street Fighter Makoto or Heihachi in Street Fighter X Tekken.

It sounds like Noel is kind of a whiff punishing character.

I edited it man, you're right both Noel and Marth are more momentum characters than Mix-Up. Momentum is more like the classic rushdown, in that they excel in close range combat, are very good at putting pressure, excel in combos and juggles, are usually easy to learn, but have the downside, of few or NO long range moves, and have a hard time getting out of sticky situations.

Mix-Up on the other hand is the mind-games focused, and has some long-range tools for zoning, however, they can't be a Balanced archetype as they too have a hard time playing reactively. Example, Lucario's Orb isn't a very good reactive attack as it needs to charged to be effective, likewise for Falco's blaster due to it's start up delay, they are more like Zoning tools to be honest. Compare this to Mario's fireballs, or Pika's Jolt that can be used very well, as reactive defensive attacks. Same goes for Ryu's Hadoken, and Sol's "girlfriend."

Beatdowns are essentially C.Falcon in a nutshell, the fast-hard *** mother****ers that do tons of damage with their hits. They are indeed close range characters and usually have 0 long range attacks, they differ from the Momentum characters in that they don't exploit weaknesses, they just jump in and do damage. I can't remember Makoto in SF, but now that I think about it, Jam is better suited for this category as well.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Palutena- Turtle with some Sniper capabilities.
Ridley- True Grappler slightly edging on Beat-up and Sniper.
King K. Rool- Heavy Powerhouse
Zoroark- Hybrid of Poker and Mix-up
Little Mac- Beat-up
Takamaru- Hybrid of Momentum and Mix-up.
Shulk- Semi-Grappler
Toad- Balanced with some mild traits of a Grappler
Starfy- Joke character with Momentum characteristics
Lip- Generally Balanced with a Power Up gimmick

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Let's see what I can input...

Bowser Jr.: Mix Up
Rosalina: Mix Up; Power Up
Dixie Kong: Momentum
King K. Rool: True Grappler
Impa: Momentum
Ridley: Semi-Grappler
Dark Samus: Sniper; Heavy Powerhouse
Bandanna Waddle Dee: Joke Character
Leon Powalski: Poker
Krystal: Sniper
Zoroark: Mix Up
Samurai Goroh: Semi-Grappler
Black Shadow: Heavy Powerhouse
Palutena: Turtle
Little Mac: Beatdown
Takamaru: Momentum
Ray Mk III: Sniper; Power Up
Saki: Momentum
Starfy: Joke Character
Black Mage: Sniper; Power Up
Mega Man: Sniper; Semi-Grappler; Power Up
Pac-Man: Balanced

 

[Big-Cat]

One more thing, joke characters is an odd archetype. Nowadays, this archetype has evolved, for balancing reasons, into the Lethal Joke Character. A Joke character is more about their general animations as opposed to their playstyle. Jigglypuff in Melee would be considered a Lethal Joke Character in every sense of the word, but she's also an aerial controlling monster.

In my opinion, some of the current cast could be changed up:
Samus - Morph Ball stance, aggressive zoning.
Sonic - Stance character and strong DI oki and momentum oriented.
Link - All around zoner with mid-range mixup potential for wearing the opponent down (think Koreans).
Lucas and Ness - Powerup characters with Ness being more rushdown and Lucas more oriented towards a defensive offense (super armor).
Donkey Kong - I pictured him more like an athletic grappler so a semi-grappler.

 

[Deleted member]

One more thing, joke characters is an odd archetype. Nowadays, this archetype has evolved, for balancing reasons, into the Lethal Joke Character. A Joke character is more about their general animations as opposed to their playstyle. Jigglypuff in Melee would be considered a Lethal Joke Character in every sense of the word, but she's also an aerial controlling monster.

In my opinion, some of the current cast could be changed up:
Samus - Morph Ball stance, aggressive zoning.
Sonic - Stance character and strong DI oki and momentum oriented.
Link - All around zoner with mid-range mixup potential for wearing the opponent down (think Koreans).
Lucas and Ness - Powerup characters with Ness being more rushdown and Lucas more oriented towards a defensive offense (super armor).
Donkey Kong - I pictured him more like an athletic grappler so a semi-grappler.

Yeah, the Joke character is hardly an archetype and it has evolved, but it's so prevalent that I still decided to keep it, while including both forms (as I did for power-ups with dynamic and passive), the fact that it's a sub-archetype that is generally tacked on means the inclusion is harmless, plus their playstyle is in a way affected as their ridicule does cause for a bit of mind-game tactics. No different from how counter characters are usually either Pokers, or Momentum characters with a gimmick tacked on.

Samus as a stance character is a bit far-fetched, she only goes morph-ball for one move. If her V+b was instead general morph-ball and gave her a couple more moves then she could be a Stance-user. You do make a better case for Sonic, seeing as becoming a Ball is a large part of his play style, I may toss him in there for arguments sake, though, he's still a very hard character to pin down, simply because he's so bad, he lacks the attack speed to be a true Momentum character, though I guess that's his best spot. And yeah, Samus, is a Sniper precisely because she's generally aggreesive (most snipers tend to be), Turtles are the more defensive Zoners.

Link isn't much of a Poker because he lacks the speed at mid-range, though a case COULD be made for him being a Turtle-Hybrid.

I don't see how Lucas and Ness have Power Up dynamics (well, the standard b, sort of, but the fact that they must remain static to use it and can't save it takes away from the gimmick), power up is more like commands/passive abilities that make the character stronger, in general, G&W and Wario are poor examples. Think more like Jam, who has commands to power up all her specials, or Order Sol, who needs to charge a meter. Though I do agree on Ness being more of a Mix Up-Sniper hybrid due to his close range attacks, and therefore mindgames, and Lucas a pure Zoner, he could also be argued for Turtle, but to me he strikes me as a pure Sniper really, he plays almost identical to Dizzy and Testament in many ways.

Agreed on Donkey Kong, though he's another poor iteration of it. It all falls down on this: Is DK more defensive or offensive, is he reactive, or proactive? If it's the latter, then DK is a Semi-Grappler.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Donkey Kong is more of a Semi-Grappler since he's faster then the True Grappler variant.

 

[Deleted member]

Donkey Kong is more of a Semi-Grappler since he's faster then the True Grappler variant.

He is isn't he? He's also faster than Dedede and Bowser. I guess he does sorta lend himself for more offensive play as well.

What about Bowser then? A poor case is made for him being a True Grappler, and most of it once again boils down to him being a poorly designed character, but I feel he was intended to be there. Dedede was our first PROPER iteration of said archetype.

 

[Big-Cat]

You misread me, Manly. I was saying those for the veterans under the assumption that they were changed up.

Samus - gets Morph Ball Mode, Power Beam behaves like the Metroid games.
Sonic - Down and Side B are merged into a followup type move (think Taokaka or El Fuerte)
Link - Under the assumption that get gets buffed/revamped big time. Obviously, his frame data needs to be much better. A 6F jab is horrible in a 2D fighter.
Ness and Lucas - Their PSI becomes what they've actually learned in the games, and they learned support PSI in their games like Offense Up, Shield, etc.
Donkey Kong - Just less clunky and take advantage of canceling mechanics in general.

Bowser has the potential to be a zoning grappler ala Goro from KOF, but like many charcters in Smash, he needs to be better designed.

 

[Deleted member]

You misread me, Manly. I was saying those for the veterans under the assumption that they were changed up.

Samus - gets Morph Ball Mode, Power Beam behaves like the Metroid games.
Sonic - Down and Side B are merged into a followup type move (think Taokaka or El Fuerte)
Link - Under the assumption that get gets buffed/revamped big time. Obviously, his frame data needs to be much better. A 6F jab is horrible in a 2D fighter.
Ness and Lucas - Their PSI becomes what they've actually learned in the games, and they learned support PSI in their games like Offense Up, Shield, etc.
Donkey Kong - Just less clunky and take advantage of canceling mechanics in general.

Bowser has the potential to be a zoning grappler ala Goro from KOF, but like many charcters in Smash, he needs to be better designed.

Oh, I wish dude. If only Sakurai or at least one of NOA's dudes were reading this thread when balancing the game. More than new characters, I want to see characters revamped and balanced to properly fit where they should and thus be able to exploit their strong points even more. Everything you just mentioned gave me a huge hard-on dude. Not only would it balance the game a lot more, but it makes every character much more unique.

In fact Link could very well be the Jin/Ky of Smash Bros, his frame data for his sword attacks needs to be sped up to allow him to poke and combo much better, and they could toss in some mechanics similar to Jin's to force him into the defensive early on, like a magic meter or something that powers up all of his sword attacks and even gives him a sword beam attack further adding to his long range arsenal. Or they could just make him like Ky, a long-range variant of the Balanced archetype.

Your ideas for Ness and Lucas are also awesome.

Maybe we can pitch these ideas to the dudes working on Project M.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Namco might be paying attention to some of these ideas. Harada of Tekken fame in particular supposedly views competitive videos of Super Smash Bros and even commented on how it was similar to other fighting games. It may or may not mean much, but at least someone pays attention to the more hardcore side of things.

 

[Big-Cat]

I think it's a little late for most of those. I wouldn't be surprised if Morph Ball mode hasn't at least been discussed amongst the PM people. She is still one of the few characters not completed along with Ice Climbers (those guys need major help), Olimar, Meta Knight, Yoshi, Kirby, and the mysterious character (presumably Mewtwo).

And yes, seeing changes for the current cast is one of the things I really want to see. With them going with a new direction for this game, I hope they go all out. Some like Peach, IMO, are well designed to the point that they don't need that many changes, but some like the Hyrule Tier need to be sent back to the drawing board.

I've also wondered what they could do for Ice Climbers. The chain grab is easily a degenerate tactic and it's broken as hell. Here's what I'm thinking could be done:

Along with the rest of the cast, the Ice Climbers have 3D Fighter strings. The way their strings work, however, is that Popo will strike first and then Nana would have certain options to follow up with. This also gives Popo a little bit of freedom to continue the offense at another angle, but Nana's attacks are rather unsafe on block so pressure isn't a guarantee each time. As such, this big change makes big use of the fact that you're playing as two characters. Another change would be that their D-Throw would be a hard knockdown and that the two can set up a Blizzard Ring ala Millia Rage, leaving the opponent to guess where to escape safely lest they get swarmed by Popo and Nana.

This would be a very unique style that the Smash series can proudly claim as its own.

 

[Deleted member]

Namco might be paying attention to some of these ideas. Harada of Tekken fame in particular supposedly views competitive videos of Super Smash Bros and even commented on how it was similar to other fighting games. It may or may not mean much, but at least someone pays attention to the more hardcore side of things.

*crosses finger*

Yeah seriously, someone needs to slap that idea of casualizing Smash Bros. from Sakurai's head. Don't wanna turn this into a Melee vs. Brawl debate, but that mentality was exactly what made Brawl a disappointment in my eyes.

 

[Diddy Kong]

DK is faster than most heavy weights, sans for Melee Ganondorf perhaps. He's always a really grab-heavy character though, and has a lot of long ranged attacks due to his long arms. But yeah, I'd always wanted him to have a 'true' grappling attack with a new Side B. Kinda like he does here at 02:22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goOr3Ewlsaw . As DK should be a BEAST at close range, beating the ape **** out of everyone trying to get close.

I like the idea of Link becoming a long ranged balanced character as well. Especially with his Skyward Sword self they could manage to make him a lot quicker and floatier, like Toon Link, basically merge both Brawl's Link and Toon Link into one character.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I really like to see this thread being made. Been doing movesets for some characters (Jenna from Golden Sun now who seems to lean inbetween Mario and Falcon) and this could really help me analyzing the best playstyle for them.

Kuma has some point on thinking Lip would be a trapper character. Lip's Stick already lends to some of this if given with it's attributes of laying the flower on contact and she'd be hard to approach if her attacks makes the opponent trying to deal with the damage-racking plant on their head: it's lead to some sweet pressure game. (Also Garbage Blocks could be meteor smashes if hitting airborne characters?)
I can also see her as a lightweight character and has potential for racking damage pretty high if not being careful.

Maybe to take it a step further, some attacks (maybe F-Smash) could leave out spores which land the flower on the opponent on contact.
Made me think of Ivysaur slightly from Project M when some of her attacks are capable of leaving the flower as well (bulb attack sweetspots, wasn't it?).

 

[FlareHabanero]

I think Lip should have a gimmick where she becomes more powerful the more combos she preforms, a reference to Panel de Pon's mechanic of preforming combos that drops garbage blocks onto the opponent.

 

[Big-Cat]

I think Lip should have a gimmick where she becomes more powerful the more combos she preforms, a reference to Panel de Pon's mechanic of preforming combos that drops garbage blocks onto the opponent.

I don't know about that. Seems fun, but I feel she could be too good. Things like special canceling into dropping garbage blocks could get the job done.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Why not? She could be a very weak character that does so little knockback that she cannot even do combos at very early %s cause even the lightest characters would punish her directly after she attacks. She could rely on stalling with a special involving the Lip's Stick to do damage untill she can get her combos in. But really, I wouldn't know anything else cause I'm not familiar with her.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Well checking on her game, it is pretty incharacter that she'd be a damage-dealing specialist (referring to overriding her opponent with garbage), but I don't think her being absolutely weak should justify that: she'd be struggling a lot.
I'm an avid PDP-player and I think the way Lip's Stick functions is essentially how she'd really play as (racking up damage potentially quickly until she can KO them out with some of her knockback moves).

 

[Big-Cat]

So can we "agree" that Lip would play kind of like poisonous character? She'd rack up damage from away and wait to go in for the kill.

 

[Deleted member]

@Kuma

I like that, in fact feel free to use this thread to discuss potential move sets for the current cast.

For example, Ganondorf. Being heavyweight, he definitely needs some work. For starters, I feel giving him a sword may be a bad idea as we have Ike as our heavy sword user, and I'd like to keep him a Powerhouse, so making him mire grapple focused is also bad. However making him a Powerhouse with a Power Up dynamic sounds interesting.

For example, expanding on his Dark Magic abilities, in a lot of Manga an the like, Darkness is generally related with the ability absorb things, or gravity. So why not give him a chargable "vaccum" ability that wan allow him to pull opponents toward him as he attacks. Ganondorf should be a threat to all characters, especially the fast ones, people need to think hard before approaching him. He should be to Smash Bros what M.Bison is to SF. This also means giving him an ability to teleport, thus keeping his slow speed as a huge draw back, but giving him some mobility to work with.

So for his specials, this is what I would like to see:

v+B- Charge Dark Magic:
He essentially dons a sinister pose a la [COLLAPSE="Dio Brando"]

[/COLLAPSE] and charges his Dark Magic. Now how this is represented could be either a la Lucario where a Dark Purple flame surrounds him, and grows bigger the more charged it is, but also I think meters should be added to the game for characters that could use them, this way you KNOW when you're fully charged. Essentially, the Dark Magic enhances all of his specials (giving them greater reach and power), and gives a PULLING (vaccum) effect that becomes more powerful the more charged you are, to all of his Normal and Smash attacks. Also the vaccum effect is a passive ability, that will simply cause enemies to gravitate toward him simply by standing there, it is only slightly, but it's still there, attacking simply makes it more noticeable. The meter recedes over time, and each Special attack you use, drains a portion of it, how much it drains is up to balancing. Also, I say it should recede faster down to 50%,, and then recede slower, giving Ganon players more of time to recharge when in though situations. Oh and having No Magic still allows you to use Specials, but they become rather redundant. The vaccum effect is unseen without magic.

^+B- Teleport:
Essentially just like Bison, very quick use, but with a delay afterwards, I feel a sinister laugh after teleporting suits Ganon just fine. It has rather mediocre range with a low meter, but is fast enough to be used for mind-games and mix-ups. A fully charged Magic meter will give you INSANE range (a ka Zelda's Farore's Wind), making it a great recovery move, but drains a lot of your magic so you have to be careful when using it. In fact all fully charged specials should drain a lot of magic for balancing issues.

><+B- Gerudo Dragon:
It's really his UpB, but it dons the name of his Melee SideB. It begins like M. Bison's classic Heavy Kick slide (http://iplaywinner.com/mbison-ssf4), where he will trample opponents with a slide move, more magic means more power and range to the slide. However, if he catches the opponent just at the end of the slide (or in mid air), he will grab them and do an UpB animation instead (with the lightining and explosion), this can be used in mid air as a recovery move as well, and grabbing someone with this in mid air allows him to use it again. Now how far foes are sent with the explosion depends on magic as well.

S.B- Warlock Punch: Not much changes here, I like this move, but it should be made the strongest move in the game when fully charged. Getting hit with this at full Magic should be a near KO from 0% and do a solid 70% or so damage. However using it at full magic will drain a good 70% or so of your magic. It still suffers from its slow speed and the range is dropped a bit, at 0 magic it basically becomes a slower Falcon Punch. However to make up for these drawbacks, for one it can be delay-able to add for mind games, and two if used in conjunction with magic, it has the same vaccum effect his normals have making it a decent killing move if in the right hands. Also, it is unblockable, will break most shields, and most attack won't affect Ganon when he's charging it. Meaning the best way to avoid this is to AVOID it. Unless you have a faster killing move that will stun him, however, moves that can do this need to be VERY powerful and therefore slow.

A few other changes, his UpA is changed to be more like Bison's Standing Heavy (a high roundhouse kick with great hit stun and range), making it a great Anti-air tool. His Standard A should be his Melee Thunderjab once again, identical too, no changes here.(I loved that move, its speed made it so troll-worthy). His UpSmash, he draws his sword and stabs it into the grown summoning a Lightingbolt (referencing Demise). SideSmash, is similar to what he has except he draws with sword and hits with the hilt, also it creates the vaccum effect mid animation (before the impact). Down Smash is the same except, the first "back kick" creates the vaccum effect, and second kick is what has all the power, for this reason, the animation is slowed down a bit. The back kick also does some damage and has decent knockback though. His jump is dramatically decreased and his fall speed is increased. His first Jump is more or less the same as Melee's, but is second jump is near garbage giving you just a little more reach. However, he can short hop really well, just like he could in Melee, meaning he can do his "short hop+down aerial" just like he could in Melee. the animation for his Down Aerial has been sped up and he gets a bit of a bounce from it, meaning that like Bison, he can get multiple hits off of it in the right hands.

Aside from this, his hitstun is nearly gone, like it should for a heavy character and he has very good defenses, much better than Ike's to be honest. His shield is very durable, and he takes a good 150%+ damage to start getting knocked around. His roll remains like Melee giving him a few more mobility options, but his running speed is walking. He CAN'T run, like a bad ***, he simple walks toward his opponents, this means he has no dash attack. However, the power and hitstun of all his neutrals are increased to make him more like Melee.

Overall, Ganondorf should be a ground focused Powerhouse with slow walking speed, and powerful attacks, he makes up for his low mobility with great defenses and his specials and rolls which give him some options. His attacks also have great range (think M.Bison), meaning he can poke very well. He has NO long range attacks and **** air game, these are his two weaknesses, however, his UpTilt gives him great AA, and his Teleport and Vaccum ability help him keep up with long range users. Ganon users should always be mindful of their Magic, making sure to stay at around 60%+, this is where Ganon's key strengths lie. Close range characters need to be very careful when facing off against him. While his combos may be short, they pack on hell of a punch, and one wrong move could spell doom. Ganon's Teleport, Vaccum passive, Fastfall and Strong Pokes give him many tools for mind game tactics, making him a contending threat that lives up to the name of Gerudo King.

His Final Smash, has his triforce summon his Trident of Power which transforms him into Ganon the pig a la LttP, this is a time limited transformation where he can wreck havoc for a while with a whole new set of specials that reference LttP and LoZ.

As far as his design, I say a hybrid between his Melee look and Demise, give him a bulky look, but not one that makes him look sluggish, like M.Bison for example.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

So can we "agree" that Lip would play kind of like poisonous character? She'd rack up damage from away and wait to go in for the kill.

Poisonous, hahahah- But yes. This describes her the best. (-lvl-) Though maybe in close combat it's still showing she's "poisonous".

Manly: Yeah. Speaking which I should try throwing some other characters I've been supporting, like Starfy or Toad.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Speaking of Toad, I always imagined him as a Semi-Grappler or Beat-up of sorts with above normal speed and power, but with the typical characteristics of a light weight character like small size and light weight. This is a reference to how Toad is a speedy character with abnormally high strength as suggested in varies games, for example Super Mario Bros. 2 where he was the fastest and strongest of the 4 characters available.