Does 3.0 Roy now have a chance against Marth?

[Jmook11]

Being one of the most buffed characters in PM, it is time to come down to the debate: Marth vs. Roy! It's a common topic in Melee. But we can all agree that Marth seems to take the cake. PM has given us the opportunity for the low-mid tier characters we use to shine, and show the top-tier some competition. So does Roy live up to Marth standards? Yes, the two have different styles of play, and yes, Roy is now a semi-clone. But all that aside, what does the battle come down to?

 

[T-Murder]

I think marth is still better but roy 2.0 can be competitive. I think the tipper still ultimately gives marth the advantage. However i play roy now because i'm not proficient at spacing.

 

[Jmook11]

I think marth is still better but roy 2.0 can be competitive. I think the tipper still ultimately gives marth the advantage. However i play roy now because i'm not proficient at spacing.

I agree. Its kinda sad to see these characters still suffer. Not that Roy isn't good, but in the end...

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Nope.

I've played the match-up from both ends. It sucks so hard for Roy it ain't even funny.

Well, it maybe isn't horrible, but I wouldn't say it's any better than 60-40 Marth.

 

[2-Tone]

I feel like he has potential against Marth, but probably not to be a better choice in competitive play. I've opted to main him in PM b/c I really don't want to get used to PM Marth and have it affect my Melee game with him, but all in all I feel like Roy is a viable option. He has a few more tools in PM than in Melee, and a lot of the combos and setups that semi-worked on Marth in melee still work. Ultimately, once the game's been out for a while and everyone figures him out, I sadly feel that Roy will run into trouble again.

 

[Jmook11]

I feel like he has potential against Marth, but probably not to be a better choice in competitive play. I've opted to main him in PM b/c I really don't want to get used to PM Marth and have it affect my Melee game with him, but all in all I feel like Roy is a viable option. He has a few more tools in PM than in Melee, and a lot of the combos and setups that semi-worked on Marth in melee still work. Ultimately, once the game's been out for a while and everyone figures him out, I sadly feel that Roy will run into trouble again.[/q

Yeah, you definitely have to try harder with Roy to get a fight on

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Marth-Roy was 60-40 even in Melee. Roy might have a weaker MU spread overall, but from my experience he goes even with Marth now, 55-45 at the worst.

 

[Jmook11]

Marth-Roy was 60-40 even in Melee. Roy might have a weaker MU spread overall, but from my experience he goes even with Marth now, 55-45 at the worst.

That might be an exaggeration. You have to play differently from the other character, cuz Marth tactics don't exactly work well with Roy. Like what T-Murder said, marth has the slight advantage due to the sweet spots. I am all for the rise of Lower-Tier characters and more variety. However in this situation, marth is likely going to be the aggressor.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

That might be an exaggeration. You have to play differently from the other character, cuz Marth tactics don't exactly work well with Roy. Like what T-Murder said, marth has the slight advantage due to the sweet spots. I am all for the rise of Lower-Tier characters and more variety. However in this situation, marth is likely going to be the aggressor.

What might I be exaggerating? It's generally agreed on the Melee boards that Marth is not that difficult of a matchup compared to the rest of the high tiers, clocking in somewhere around 60-40. There isn't any way it could have remained close to the same as Melee levels with the amount of buffs Roy was given.
It helps to look at what actually made Marth better in Melee, and what makes him remain better in PM. The sweetspots really don't mean much at all apart from dictating overall playstyle, really.
For example, in Melee, Marth's aerials essentially were equal to Roy's up close with his own sweetspot power at the tip, and on the ground the sweetspots were more directly inverted but Marth's were always significantly faster. This wasn't a weakness brought about by the inner-blade sweetspot itself so much as it was brought about by poor execution of the concept. Roy also lacked range in Melee because he would easily be punished even when successfully hitting with a tipper, which is no longer the case. Now that tipper hits can reliably lead into an opportunity to start a chase or move into Marth's weak range and pressure him from there, Roy can challenge Marth at range quite well. Throw in the fact that tipper/long range hits on a lot of Roy's moves can be pretty scary to Marth (neutral-B, dtilt, nair), and there is no reason to believe Marth dominates the zoning game whatsoever. Marth's true advantage, in my opinion, is his grab, since it covers a large section of his weak range. Combined with his faster ground movement, it can be a struggle to get in range for a big conversion without getting grabbed (luckily, as I said, Roy is now much more capable of creating this opportunity or even bypassing it altogether at long range).
However, aggressor does not equate to the winner in a matchup (not that good Roy play should allow Marth to dictate who the aggressor is by any means). Roy has an incredible punish game against Marth and is far more reliable at setting up KOs, so a Marth that tries to push minor advantages is prone to devastating combos off of just one dtilt or uair.
Marth likely has a slight advantage over the course of the matchup due to cumulative advantages in speed, range, and grab game (particularly on small stages), as well as better offstage KOs, but 60-40 solely because tipper is inaccurate. I think the exact numbers are yet to be seen, but I wouldn't be surprised if Marth's advantages didn't add up to anything more than 55-45 in his favor.

 

[Jmook11]

I apologize, I read the numbers wrong. I agree with what your saying in its entirety, but also include the mind games that marth players implement...

 

[ChristianStewarts#1fan]

Op, i wouldnt take any of these users advice too seriously. Complaining about roy being up is the silliest thing ever, he has great combos, conversions, kill moves, plus his recovery and options against crouch canceling are much stronger now. Also he doesnt lose to marth and heres why:
Roy is harder to gimp than marth/edgehog, roy has one of the strongest conversions off of a crouch cancel in dsmash and dtilt, one of marths weakest areas, can space with stuff like nair, which is possible a stronger option than falcons nair, as conpared to marths situational one, tons of options when he gets in, conbos way harder than marth, and has many more kill options at high percents. Id say its fairly even for the both of them, they go pretty even in neutral, and while roy gets killed easier and is slower he makes up for it in other areas and punishes just as hard, with better defensive options and can kill reliably.

 

[DJ _ICE]

Roy is so easy to edgeguard, dude, way easier than Marth. Less distance on Blazer than Dolphin Slash, faster falling speed and less ability to stall with side-b. Marth edgeguards really easy just by jumping from the ledge and bairing or standing and just countering the Blazer. I think your crouch canceling is a pretty valid point though. Both have great options when they get in, Roy does his insane combos while Marth can juggle Roy to death or carry him to the ledge with fairs and edgeguard.

Overall, I think its very even and a fun matchup but I believe Marth has a slight edge with a slightly better neutral and an easier time edgeguarding.

 

[ChristianStewarts#1fan]

Id agree with that. Though i still feel roy has the options to be on par with marth and excel where marth struggles. Ill agree with your point about roy being easier to gimp, but roy has always been one of the tougher characters to edgehog due to how it lingers and stabs through the edge of the stage with many hitboxes

 

[Brim]

I can't say as much for the Marth MU with Roy, but from what I've played with Roy I just feel like he's at a disadvantage. To me, for some reason he feels so damn heavy and I'll be watching for a Back-roomer/Mod to come in and tell me his falling speed matches Roy, but I kid you not when I get knocked off I feel like Roy falls like a brick even with proper DI.
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Back to the Marth MU discussion, sorry I got side-tracked. Playing Roy against Marth is just tricky because you really need to get your combos out, and since most Roys/Marths don't use counter, because of how badly you'll be punished if you mistime, you're free to try to hit those combos out as soon as you get the chance. Just don't forget to toss in a throw or two, remember his throw isn't very powerful, but it's really meant to have combos mix right into it after the throw. I'm not saying go bat-**** crazy with your combos, but with Roy I highly recommend being more aggressive, the only catch is you should REALLY know your spacing. But, in general if the Marth is about your level on terms of skill, you should expect to lose the match, Marth's attacks just come out faster, and to top it all off his recovery is just better. And in my opinion Marth can just chase much better off the ledge, because even if he misses he can still beat you to the ledge, and wait for you to make a grab for it.
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Also, someone tell me I'm crazy but did Roy's in-air vulnerable frames get increased (when he's hit into the air)? When I'm hit into the air, I literally feel like it takes two-seconds (slow seconds by the way) just to even respond at all, when with any other character, even characters like Ganondork, I have literally what feels like less than a second to respond, in any way.

 

[iwinatu]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think hit stun has to do with fall speed/weight, so that's why floaty characters don't have much, and why heavy characters don't have much either. That's why Fox feels like hes in hut stun for eternity, because he falls so fast and is so light. And Ganondork is kinda floaty as is, so his weight helps him get out of stuff too. I totally know what you mean on Ganon too. When I try and combo him, he just ...... jumps out the combo......

Roy has a pretty fast fall speed, one of the higher ones I think, and I think he's kind of light too. So he's kinda like Marth, but falls faster, so he has that long hit stun.