Pokkén Tournament Ferrum Stadium Only? This Ain't Smash

[Tiberious]

TL;DR: Until Random stage becomes the tournament standard (unless v1.3 implements stage select in LAN mode), I contend the best online players are better than the best offline-only players because OL players can adapt to more situations.

So, LAN mode only lets you pick between Ferrum Stadium and Random (All). I get that it's kinda lame to disallow a stage selection, but why should the game's depth be neutered before the game even develops a meta?

Yeah, I get that some stages favor one type of character in start position over another (Zoners love stages like Blue Dome, for instance). Arenas also affect synergy pickups, some more than others, but that's part of learning to play this particular game. You can't remove randomness completely, so embrace it.

I mean, hell, I went in and labbed how the XL pickup on the Dark Coliseums worked. It's not as bad as people want to make it out to be. Is it a position thing? Sure. It's no different than any other form of stage control that players need to fight for. It's like keeping your opponent in the corner, or as far away as you can manage, only it's control over a demarcated spot that gives both players ample warning to begin contesting the space.

And sure, the reward is somewhat hefty, but again, let's be honest. It's more likely to only be an issue once per round, and some characters already get meter once a round anyway. Just look at Shadow Mewtwo and Weavile for your examples. Unless you essentially perfect them, they're getting it each time. Others get it in time to either seal the win in round 2, or a tool to keep in the back pocket for round 3 (only one may never get to see Burst mode in a match, and that's a bit of a flaw in the balancing, IMO). Finally, Burst Mode really isn't as scary as most players make it out to be. Yes, you need to watch for your opponent's BA during that time, but you're also rewarded for facing your fears and continuing to use your offense by greatly reducing your opponent's gauge as it runs down. Should you score a knockdown on your opponent as his Burst runs out and they haven't used the BA yet, you know that either it's coming IMMEDIATELY upon wakeup, or not at all. At this point, you should know where it hits and be able to either avoid or block it and punish accordingly.

I just really don't think the game's mature enough to be stunting its development like TOs are.

 

[Nah]

I agree with you about the stage selection thing. It's one thing in Smash where stages do in fact have some noticeable impact on matches, but in this game there's little real difference between the stages. They're all just ovals/circles of varying size, that's really not gonna make much difference if you ask me. And if Dark Coliseum is the only problem stage for people, idk, just, restart the match if the random select brings you there (idk why the hell they thought it was a good idea to not let you select the specific stage though)?

But I think you're underestimating how good Burst Attack is. Almost all of the Burst attacks in this game are kind of ridiculous: almost no start-up, beats out basically everything, most of them are safe on block/whiff, etc. And this is on top of increased damage and not taking hitstun from many attacks.

 

[Szion]

OK my buddy lost a tourney because that stupid synergy thing appeared in the middle and the guy bursted for free

how the hell is that not an issue? its like the smash ball in brawl, common sense here people

 

[Tiberious]

I agree with you about the stage selection thing. It's one thing in Smash where stages do in fact have some noticeable impact on matches, but in this game there's little real difference between the stages. They're all just ovals/circles of varying size, that's really not gonna make much difference if you ask me. And if Dark Coliseum is the only problem stage for people, idk, just, restart the match if the random select brings you there (idk why the hell they thought it was a good idea to not let you select the specific stage though)?

That's just it. Not only that, but the Synergy pickup mechanics have been tested out, and made available for players to research if they desire. If they gripe about anything related to the Field Phase spawns, that's just baseless whining and can be safely ignored.

But I think you're underestimating how good Burst Attack is. Almost all of the Burst attacks in this game are kind of ridiculous: almost no start-up, beats out basically everything, most of them are safe on block/whiff, etc. And this is on top of increased damage and not taking hitstun from many attacks.

...Not really. It comes down to matchup knowledge. Burst Attacks are not much different than Ultra Combos in Street Fighter IV (I was going to say Critical Arts from SF5, but CAs are better in combos). They follow the damage scaling formula, so comboing into them is not as good as raw, and there are a number of things you can do about them. To me, the scarier thing about Burst in general is the Mode itself, but even that can be mitigated by smart play and landing hits or combos to eat up the timer.

Hell, I have more issues with some regular moves than I do most Burst Modes/Attacks (Vortex and Overheat come to mind).

OK my buddy lost a tourney because that stupid synergy thing appeared in the middle and the guy bursted for free

how the hell is that not an issue? its like the smash ball in brawl, common sense here people

Are you talking about the L that shows up in the middle of every stage for Round 3? If that's the case, you have no real complaint here. That should be common knowledge, as is Regi Ruins spawning the same L pickup at the start of every round.
There are a couple of options to deal with that:

1) Get them pushed away before it becomes collectable, or
2) Phase Shift them (or take a PS intentionally) to make it despawn.

It's not like it's an instant win button like the Smash Ball. This is a fighting game, and it's just a bit of resource that shows up.


To be honest, the game's got much deeper problems than just this. If a v1.3 isn't released that addressed those underlying problems, I give this game about 3 months before it's dead competitively.

 

[Nah]

To be honest, the game's got much deeper problems than just this. If a v1.3 isn't released that addressed those underlying problems, I give this game about 3 months before it's dead competitively.

Just curious to hear what you have to say on this. I think the game has some problems that need fixing (and sooner rather than later) but I wanna see what you think the problems are.

 

[Tiberious]

The main issue is that way, WAY too many moves are safe on block.

I'm not talking positive frame advantage here. I'm talking about being less disadvantageous than the fastest possible move any character has. There's very few truly unsafe moves on block (Mewtwo is saddled with more than most, though).

I came to that conclusion after a local tournament for the game, where a few vocal players had the rules changed to appease them (it was written as Random on the website), and during a match got so frustrated and irritated with the idiocy I was consistently being hit with, that I abandoned my planned play, switched my brain off and went from being perfected to almost pulling a comeback. This is the complete antithesis of what should win in any fighting game. When you can win with mindless garbage instead of actually approaching the matchup from a logical angle, there's something very, very wrong.

 

[Pixel_]

The main issue is that way, WAY too many moves are safe on block.

I'm not talking positive frame advantage here. I'm talking about being less disadvantageous than the fastest possible move any character has. There's very few truly unsafe moves on block (Mewtwo is saddled with more than most, though).

I came to that conclusion after a local tournament for the game, where a few vocal players had the rules changed to appease them (it was written as Random on the website), and during a match got so frustrated and irritated with the idiocy I was consistently being hit with, that I abandoned my planned play, switched my brain off and went from being perfected to almost pulling a comeback. This is the complete antithesis of what should win in any fighting game. When you can win with mindless garbage instead of actually approaching the matchup from a logical angle, there's something very, very wrong.

Have you played Tekken? I've seen people dissapointed whenever there's something -5 frames on block, when the fastest move in the game is 10 frames.

 

[Tiberious]

I mean, it's fine for a small selection of moves to be safe on block like this... after all, being able to keep pressure on to some extent is a good thing. It just needs to be designed so that being able to keep said safe pressure going requires being predictable and especially counterable.

But when some characters have such safety on 50-75% of their moves, then it gets outrageous. Add to that the ridiculous properties of some moves and how easy it is to cancel into them on reaction for next-to-no cost ("herp-derp, I see I'm hitting a CA, so let me sacrifice a little bit of recoverable health to cancel into a Pierce for a free hit, 'cause I gain Burst easy, and 'grey life' can always be restored with that or Cresselia" -Every Blaziken Main Ever, 2016).

That's where I take issue with the game.There's no reason for smart defensive play to be unable to turn that weathering of the storm into an offensive opportunity.

 

[Pixel_]

I mean, it's fine for a small selection of moves to be safe on block like this... after all, being able to keep pressure on to some extent is a good thing. It just needs to be designed so that being able to keep said safe pressure going requires being predictable and especially counterable.

But when some characters have such safety on 50-75% of their moves, then it gets outrageous. Add to that the ridiculous properties of some moves and how easy it is to cancel into them on reaction for next-to-no cost ("herp-derp, I see I'm hitting a CA, so let me sacrifice a little bit of recoverable health to cancel into a Pierce for a free hit, 'cause I gain Burst easy, and 'grey life' can always be restored with that or Cresselia" -Every Blaziken Main Ever, 2016).

That's where I take issue with the game.There's no reason for smart defensive play to be unable to turn that weathering of the storm into an offensive opportunity.

I'm not good at either Tekken or Pokken, so I'm not sure if what I'm saying can be backed up well, but...
I see Pokken battles as a series of Rock-Paper-Scissors, and though that sounds pretty obvious for any fighting game, Pokken just seems to put way more emphasis. Maybe it also has to do with the fact that I use Garchomp, who's a heavy (does that term even apply to Pokken?), and has to hard read through more than usual.

Anyway, blocking is an extra mechanic that messes up the Rock-Paper-Scissors in a way. Even though everybody spams attacks and they're safe on shield, shields take absolutely forever to break, and you can shield until they're forced to grab. However, if you predict when they'll grab, you can attack before that, and it'll beat out their grab.

If they don't catch on, you get free damage. If they do, they'll switch to either counter attacks (to counter the attacks), or shield (to block your attack). If you predict this before they do it, you can grab them, because grab beats both options. At this point, the opponent can't grab, counter attack, shield, or attack, because you've scared them out of every option. The only way they can get damage in is by getting you to grab and attacking while you do it. But if you don't grab, then they're stuck.

I wrote way too much, but that's what I think of how Pokken is played as of now (even though I'veonly played ~30 battles). Mostly theory, but I think this game is best played with reads and trying to get to the next part of the triangle, with shielding as the go-to option.

What's your idea of "smart defensive play," though?