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Help with recovery?

iwinatu

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Messages
17
Location
University of Washington, Seattle, WA
I'm having a really tough time getting back from the ledge against sword characters, namely Roy. Do you guys have any suggestions?

Getting TO the ledge is not my problem. I know how to hit myself with my up-b and aim it well, and the tether range is practically ingrained in my DNA, so no troubles there either.

But for some reason, I just can't get back up. I might get over the stage, but I'll always get knocked back off, until finally I'm too far out to come back. It's gotten to the point where basically once I grab ledge, I die; no amount of recovery mix-up (maybe there's more I could do?) gets me back safely on against that sword, be it dtilts, fsmashs, neutral b's, nairs, and/or a flurry of fairs, sometimes dairs. And the only time I do get back is when my opponent messes up.

Please tell me this isn't just the way things are for Lucas, there's gotta be hope lol. Thank you!
 

MoMonay

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
8
You can try a PK thunder ledge stall. I usually ledge hop into a forward air or neutral air to get back onto the stage. I don't play against sword people that often who are good at ledge killing.
 

Badge

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
186
The first thing you should do is get comfortable at the ledge if you aren't already, i.e. both the non Lucas-specific getting as much as possible out of your ledge invincibility by releasing the ledge immediately as well as being able to do stuff out of your DJ without DJCing or flying above your opponent. I had the same problem for quite a while and I feel the fear of killing myself combined with technical errors was what got me killed most often. Also: Make good use of your ledge invincibility.

Options for getting onto the stage include ledgehop/-jump fair, ledgedash->anything, ledgehop/-jump magnet and airdodge->zair - ledgehop PKF should be acceptable, too. You can also tether or thunder stall to renew your invincibility and throw your opponent off and of course you also got additional but much less ideal mixups like get-up attack. Some of the above mentioned won't work depending on the positioning of your opponent but in any given situation you have multiple options to mix them up. For Marths standing in tipper range from the ledge in particular, ledgehop/-jump fair or magnet won't hit them, but airdodge->snake and ledgedash->something will as will ledgehop PKF or ledgejump->DJ->fair/magnet (just thought of this, don't know how it would fair in an actual match or if somebody does it already).
 
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Lukingordex

No Custom Titles Allowed
Joined
Mar 9, 2012
Messages
3,056
Switch FC
SW-6444-7862-9014
Just use PSI magnet to recover + air dodge -> Zair, works almost every time lol.

Also try to be less previsible when you're in the ledge, like fast falling from the ledge and returning fairing, air dodging to the stage and hiting the oponnent with zair, or something that your opponent probably will not expect.
 
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iwinatu

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Messages
17
Location
University of Washington, Seattle, WA
Hmm, I have been trying some of these already, like the PSI magnet at ledge and also the zair to snake. I usually get caught right before the snake or something dumb like that, cuz why else would I jump that high up? Or the knock back isn't enough on fast fallers or can just be crouch canceled.
These are some good tips tho. I'll try em out when I can

Swords can be so annoying....lol
 

Badge

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
186
I usually get caught right before the snake or something dumb like that, cuz why else would I jump that high up?
If you're implying you got hit before your zair hit: Execution matters, you can connect with everything I mentioned before your invinicibility ends. Abusing your invincibility is especially important against characters with disjointed hitboxes, because it allows you to go right through their swords and start doing Lucas stuff, if they rely on their range advantage to keep you from the stage. Also, you don't have to jump up high to use the ropesnake.

Crouch canceling could be a problem because we can't ledgedash->grab properly, but magnet and dair can deal with it if you can reach them and ledgejump->DJ->magnet adds quite a bit of reach to your magnet compared to just ledgejumping before it.

I also figured I should expand on what I said, because not everything is obvious and there's a ton of stuff to be said about every single option you have (and I like writing stuff):
  • Ledgehop/-jump aerials: In either case, you'll usually want to DJC your aerials unless you're trying to go above the opponent (which is very situational). You'll land sooner and are invincible anyway, so you can't be hit out of your DJ. A wrong timing for a ledgehop DJC leads to a suicide, but it's pretty easy to hit the right timing (unless you go for the really low one obviously). For ledgehop fairs the hitbox doesn't even come out later than had you not canceled your jump as with any timing where your hitbox comes out above the stage you'll also land on the stage. I mostly prefer fair for the range especially against swords, but if your opponent is ccing you'll probably want to use dair instead. Dair though is more dependent on your opponent's position and is harder to hit with during invincibility. Ledgehop (ledgedrop->DJ) aerials don't hit as far into the stage as ledgejump(->DJ) aerials and land later, but come out faster. The difference between perfect execution and however little imperfect execution (for landing soon) is also larger with ledgehops. Different timings give you different flight paths. I'd guess that most of the time you want to do ledgejump->DJC fairs and ledgehop->DJC or ledgejump->no DJC dairs, but the ideal choice depends on the positioning etc. of the opponent.
    If you miss a fair with a fast landing timing and good execution you'll still have a bit of incvincibility left after the landing lag (comparable to that of Lucas' ledgedash).
  • Ledgehop/-jump magnet: About as fast as ledgejump-aerials, but has less range than fair. On the other hand, it's magnet so massive advantage on shield, hits might lead to gimps, it's not really cc-able and with perfect execution you can still do a DJC fair during your invincibility. You end in the air after it instead of on the ground due to the JC, which might be better or worse. Also, depending on the timing you can either end with an aerial magnet (into DJ) or grounded magnet (into jump). Ledgehop and ledgejump are about equally fast (ledgehop one frame faster) and ledgejump->magnet has a bit more range. Situation and preference will be deciding what to use I guess.
  • Airdodge->Zair: This option has a huge reach, but dodge to far in before zairing you're vulnerable before the hitbox comes out. Again you have quite a few options how to use this one. You can either ledgedrop->airdodge diagonally up, which will hit quite soon but only cancel late (only do this if it won't be just punished on hit) or you can ledgehop/-jump before the airdodge. In the latter case ledgejumping and then airdodging horizontal to the stage gives you (near) immediate cancels, but ledgehopping is not far off and could still realistically be used if preferred. You can also just ledgehop first and try to bait an reaction before either airdodging in for a punish or tethering back to the ledge. Lots of options. Wrong executions might leave you canceling the attack before it comes out, which obviously is bad, and cc-ing is strong against the snake.
  • Ledgehop->DJC PKF: I didn't try this one in practice, but it sounds okay and someone else might have more insights into it. Ledgejump doesn't work for this, because you'd either not be able to DJC it, land before the projectile comes out or take far too long. You spend more time in the air than usually and probably hit the opponent sooner than when you DJC PKF on stage, so it doesn't combo as well as it usually does, but it still is an option that doesn't look terrible.
  • Ledgedash: Ledgejump->airdodge is 1 frame faster than ledgehop->airdodge and gives you 5 frames to act during invincibility, which is quite bad tbh (for comparison: Fox has 12 frames, Mario 10 iirc) and a result of Lucas strange DJ. Still - it's an option and mostly your best option if you just want to get onto the stage fast without attacking.
    There actually is a technique which is akin to a very short ledgedash and gives you 10 frames of acting invincibility - much more in line with normal DJ characters. It's a double 1 frame window though, so I'm just mentioning it for completeness' sake: Ledgejump->Airdodge horizontally to the stage->Tether on frame 1 of the airdodge. I don't think it's currently worth putting the effort into it that would be necessary, but this is Lucas after all, so somebody might be crazy enough.
  • Tether stall: Ledgedrop->Tether->Reel in. Renews your invincibility the fastest and is ideal for just mixing up the get up timing.
  • Thunder stall: Ledgedrop->PKT->Make the Ball go into the stage (or hit yourself with it). A little gimmicky for you are not invincible the whole time, but can throw the opponent off, renews invincibility and doesn't use up tether usages, so it is an acceptable mix-up but I wouldn't use it too often.

(The frame data stuff is for 3.0 because I didn't bother installing 3.02 on Dolphin yet, but I don't think that would change anything.)
 

NeonApophis

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Messages
180
Location
The Hyperbolic Time Chamber
Wait, so how does ledge jump invincibility work? I thought I remembered seeing that you get 15 frames of invincibility and can act on frame 16, but if you can maintain invincibility during your actions after a ledge jump that must be incorrect. I also don't think I've ever been able to remain invincible when acting after a ledge jump, but I haven't done any frame by frame tests so I might just not be able to notice it.
 
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Badge

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
186
Wait, so how does ledge jump invincibility work? I thought I remembered seeing that you get 15 frames of invincibility and can act on frame 16, but if you can maintain invincibility during your actions after a ledge jump that must be incorrect. I also don't think I've ever been able to remain invincible when acting after a ledge jump, but I haven't done any frame by frame tests so I might just not be able to notice it.
Ledge jump invincibility doesn't help you (it ends on the same frame you could act), but ledge invincibility (or whatever it's called) stays through the ledge jump, so you just jump as soon as possible and still have something left. Ledge invincibility is 37 frames, ledge jump can be initiated on frame 8 and you can act on frame 14 of it (21 of your invincibility with perfect timing). This leaves you with 17 frames of invincibility to work with. Ledgehop gives you 27 frames (ledge drop on 9, DJ on 10), but the time it takes for Lucas to rise to stage levels evens things out.
 

Badge

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
186
I thought so, too, until I tested it in response to this thread and now wonder why I thought so (I guess because they're two seperate entities of invincibility and it makes intuitive sense that only the later one would apply until you think about it). The invincibility definitely carries over.
 
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FeedReed

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
8
If you're implying you got hit before your zair hit: Execution matters, you can connect with everything I mentioned before your invinicibility ends. Abusing your invincibility is especially important against characters with disjointed hitboxes, because it allows you to go right through their swords and start doing Lucas stuff, if they rely on their range advantage to keep you from the stage. Also, you don't have to jump up high to use the ropesnake.

Crouch canceling could be a problem because we can't ledgedash->grab properly, but magnet and dair can deal with it if you can reach them and ledgejump->DJ->magnet adds quite a bit of reach to your magnet compared to just ledgejumping before it.

I also figured I should expand on what I said, because not everything is obvious and there's a ton of stuff to be said about every single option you have (and I like writing stuff):
  • Ledgehop/-jump aerials: In either case, you'll usually want to DJC your aerials unless you're trying to go above the opponent (which is very situational). You'll land sooner and are invincible anyway, so you can't be hit out of your DJ. A wrong timing for a ledgehop DJC leads to a suicide, but it's pretty easy to hit the right timing (unless you go for the really low one obviously). For ledgehop fairs the hitbox doesn't even come out later than had you not canceled your jump as with any timing where your hitbox comes out above the stage you'll also land on the stage. I mostly prefer fair for the range especially against swords, but if your opponent is ccing you'll probably want to use dair instead. Dair though is more dependent on your opponent's position and is harder to hit with during invincibility. Ledgehop (ledgedrop->DJ) aerials don't hit as far into the stage as ledgejump(->DJ) aerials and land later, but come out faster. The difference between perfect execution and however little imperfect execution (for landing soon) is also larger with ledgehops. Different timings give you different flight paths. I'd guess that most of the time you want to do ledgejump->DJC fairs and ledgehop->DJC or ledgejump->no DJC dairs, but the ideal choice depends on the positioning etc. of the opponent.
    If you miss a fair with a fast landing timing and good execution you'll still have a bit of incvincibility left after the landing lag (comparable to that of Lucas' ledgedash).
  • Ledgehop/-jump magnet: About as fast as ledgejump-aerials, but has less range than fair. On the other hand, it's magnet so massive advantage on shield, hits might lead to gimps, it's not really cc-able and with perfect execution you can still do a DJC fair during your invincibility. You end in the air after it instead of on the ground due to the JC, which might be better or worse. Also, depending on the timing you can either end with an aerial magnet (into DJ) or grounded magnet (into jump). Ledgehop and ledgejump are about equally fast (ledgehop one frame faster) and ledgejump->magnet has a bit more range. Situation and preference will be deciding what to use I guess.
  • Airdodge->Zair: This option has a huge reach, but dodge to far in before zairing you're vulnerable before the hitbox comes out. Again you have quite a few options how to use this one. You can either ledgedrop->airdodge diagonally up, which will hit quite soon but only cancel late (only do this if it won't be just punished on hit) or you can ledgehop/-jump before the airdodge. In the latter case ledgejumping and then airdodging horizontal to the stage gives you (near) immediate cancels, but ledgehopping is not far off and could still realistically be used if preferred. You can also just ledgehop first and try to bait an reaction before either airdodging in for a punish or tethering back to the ledge. Lots of options. Wrong executions might leave you canceling the attack before it comes out, which obviously is bad, and cc-ing is strong against the snake.
  • Ledgehop->DJC PKF: I didn't try this one in practice, but it sounds okay and someone else might have more insights into it. Ledgejump doesn't work for this, because you'd either not be able to DJC it, land before the projectile comes out or take far too long. You spend more time in the air than usually and probably hit the opponent sooner than when you DJC PKF on stage, so it doesn't combo as well as it usually does, but it still is an option that doesn't look terrible.
  • Ledgedash: Ledgejump->airdodge is 1 frame faster than ledgehop->airdodge and gives you 5 frames to act during invincibility, which is quite bad tbh (for comparison: Fox has 12 frames, Mario 10 iirc) and a result of Lucas strange DJ. Still - it's an option and mostly your best option if you just want to get onto the stage fast without attacking.
    There actually is a technique which is akin to a very short ledgedash and gives you 10 frames of acting invincibility - much more in line with normal DJ characters. It's a double 1 frame window though, so I'm just mentioning it for completeness' sake: Ledgejump->Airdodge horizontally to the stage->Tether on frame 1 of the airdodge. I don't think it's currently worth putting the effort into it that would be necessary, but this is Lucas after all, so somebody might be crazy enough.
  • Tether stall: Ledgedrop->Tether->Reel in. Renews your invincibility the fastest and is ideal for just mixing up the get up timing.
  • Thunder stall: Ledgedrop->PKT->Make the Ball go into the stage (or hit yourself with it). A little gimmicky for you are not invincible the whole time, but can throw the opponent off, renews invincibility and doesn't use up tether usages, so it is an acceptable mix-up but I wouldn't use it too often.

(The frame data stuff is for 3.0 because I didn't bother installing 3.02 on Dolphin yet, but I don't think that would change anything.)
Could you possibly buffer a roll after the ledgehop wavedash and make it to middle of the stage without being vulnerable?
 

Dron

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
Messages
190
Location
Mobile, AL
I sometimes end up using a lot of turnaround magnet on ledge -> jump onstage -> bair rather than fair or airdodge snake, the big arcing hitbox can mess up people who aren't careful or conditioned for it

I'm curious as to how effective it is on paper though
 

Badge

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
186
Could you possibly buffer a roll after the ledgehop wavedash and make it to middle of the stage without being vulnerable?
Roll is invincible on frame 4. This means you can, if you are no more than 2 frames off in your ledgejump->waveland execution. It's somewhat similiar to a <100% ledgeroll, giving a bit more distance and being a bit slower.
I sometimes end up using a lot of turnaround magnet on ledge -> jump onstage -> bair rather than fair or airdodge snake, the big arcing hitbox can mess up people who aren't careful or conditioned for it

I'm curious as to how effective it is on paper though
The best you can do is make the first hitbox (the one above Lucas) come out on your last frame of invincibility and much more often than not you won't get that timing so any properly spaced lingering hitbox will beat it, which then leaves you any distance off stage without your second jump and probably one less tether. It's also bad on shield and given away 0.4 seconds before the hitbox by the reverse magnet unless you also do other stuff out of a reverse magnet on the ledge.

So in theory I don't see how it would be good and it's even risky too use it as a mixup because it leaves you so vulnerable if you get hit out of it (as opposed to the options I listed above that will at least regain you your DJ and tethers no matter what your opponent does). The main merit I see is it being so different from your other options in timing and hitbox placement that it probably catches opponents who learned to expect your more inherently solid options offguard.
 
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