How Do Xeldorno Combo? - By Karma (Not the Sonic Main)

[Karmaic Avidity]

Let's face it. Our character is flow chart heavy. Like, so flow chart heavy. So heavy, she needs extra flow maxicharts. Some of the things Zelda does are reactive, but a lot of them are "Do X in Y situation. Repeat for big damage/kills."

In an effort to educate people on what to do in order to optimize their combos and damage, I've decided to make some basic (very poorly made) flow charts on some Zelda combos. I was also pushed by Kaeldiar. Damn you Kael.

Anyway, here's the first:

This is assuming horrible/not that great DI from your opponent, so, keep in mind you won't get this every time you double usmash your opponent. This also doesn't work on super lightweights, or the lighter medium weights. They just go too far away for you to get followups.

I'm interested in doing more of these, but I don't really know what you guys need specific help on. Please let me know what situations you'd like to see some combos/charts for, and I'll make them up as quick as I can <3

I'll also work on prettying this whole post/thread up if enough people like it/want more.

Pls understand.

 

[Kaeldiar]

I was also pushed by Kaeldiar. Damn you Kael.

I love you, too <3

 

[Karmaic Avidity]

Ihu.

 

[otheusrex]

great job! hate to be the devil's advocate here, but the viability of choices you have does change a lot with different percentages and combo weights. Also, having platforms obviously drastically effects the dins fire tech roll thing

 

[WhiteCrow]

Zelda up smashes>up smash at zero percent and everyone turns into pillars of salt. Fox up smashes>up smash at zero percent and everyone orgasms. I honestly wish she had a longer WD like Ivysaur so her tech chases were more potent. A higher run speed would be good to but the PMDT hasn't shown any signs of changing her core speeds.

 

[4tlas]

I honestly don't think Zelda is very flowchart-y, but I understand how it may appear that way. Due to her slow speed and the sheer knockback all of her moves apply, she only has 1 followup option in any given situation, if any at all. This makes her "flowchart-y". However, which option that is depends heavily on weight, percent, and DI. Furthermore, there are some scenarios where forgoing the obvious followup to instead set up for neutral (via Dins placement) is a valid option.

 

[trusty]

Awesome. I'm all new to PM and Zelda as a main in general so charts like that really open up the possibilities to me.

 

[BlackMamba]

Zelda up smashes>up smash at zero percent and everyone turns into pillars of salt. Fox up smashes>up smash at zero percent and everyone orgasms. I honestly wish she had a longer WD like Ivysaur so her tech chases were more potent. A higher run speed would be good to but the PMDT hasn't shown any signs of changing her core speeds.

I think mechanically wavedash length can't really be changed because it isn't an independent quality (it's determined by other factors like traction/fall speed etc), so a slight speed boost would be easier to implement. If they made her a tad faster, down throw would actually gain a lot more utility as a tech chasing option. You can do it now sometimes against poor tech rolls, but generally not more than once or twice in a row.

 

[BlackMamba]

I don't really get this whole "flow charty" terminology... seems like, by some people's idea of it, pretty much every character is flow charty?

 

[WhiteCrow]

I think mechanically wavedash length can't really be changed because it isn't an independent quality

Look at Ivysaur's patch notes between 2.6 and 3.0. That's exactly what they did to her, giving her a longer wave dash. They also increased her fastfall speed (which might also be nice for Zelda), so it's totally possible.

 

[BlackMamba]

Look at Ivysaur's patch notes between 2.6 and 3.0. That's exactly what they did to her, giving her a longer wave dash. They also increased her fastfall speed (which might also be nice for Zelda), so it's totally possible.

Well. This is officially what I want for my birthday then lol

 

[WhiteCrow]

Well. This is officially what I want for my birthday then lol

Right?! I've been begging for this for a year.

 

[4tlas]

I don't really get this whole "flow charty" terminology... seems like, by some people's idea of it, pretty much every character is flow charty?

I think the idea is that Zelda only has 1 followup option at any given time due to her terrible speed. Some characters can combo with whichever moves they want, so it is possible to get creative to maximize percent, or positioning, or reset to neutral, or whatever.

But the way I like to look at it is this: if you want to think of it as a flowchart, go ahead. I do it all on reaction, and I find it more fun that way.

 

[BlackMamba]

Right?! I've been begging for this for a year.

One of the more frustrating things about playing her is when I get a read on an opponent and try to wavedash back/OoS for a punish but then because her wavedash is sooo short I end up being hit anyway lol. We don't even need like a Marth length or anything, just a bit longer than what we have rn IMO

 

[BlackMamba]

I think the idea is that Zelda only has 1 followup option at any given time due to her terrible speed. Some characters can combo with whichever moves they want, so it is possible to get creative to maximize percent, or positioning, or reset to neutral, or whatever.

But the way I like to look at it is this: if you want to think of it as a flowchart, go ahead. I do it all on reaction, and I find it more fun that way.

Oh I suppose that makes sense. It's just weird because people call Sheik flow charty a lot and there are very few instance where she has only one followup option haha

 

[4tlas]

Oh I suppose that makes sense. It's just weird because people call Sheik flow charty a lot and there are very few instance where she has only one followup option haha

That might be because most Sheik play is pretty basic. You can get by with choosing the most obvious option every time. If you watch M2K's Sheik, you will see him purposely dair for more followups/damage then fair for the kill rather than just fair, even though they were already near the edge. You will see him purposely late hit nair for more damage before fair. You will see him purposely late hit bair so he can bair again. Same with upair. So essentially most people don't optimize their Sheik play because they use the flowchart.

Zelda has very few situations where you don't want to hit the sweetspot, almost no attacks you want to purposely delay, no special angles on any of her moves to combo with, and nearly no moves that hit in the same locations to swap for each other. Sometimes you want to nair into a lightning kick, but nair is rather finicky and can only combo into the LK sweetspot with specific %/DI combinations. Sometimes you want to late upair so you can get another one, but again that only works with specific %/DI combinations. Sometimes you can combo sourspot LK into sweetspot LK, but does anyone do that on purpose? (I've done it a few times in friendlies for style, but only ever on accident in tournament).

 

[Kaeldiar]

Look at Ivysaur's patch notes between 2.6 and 3.0. That's exactly what they did to her, giving her a longer wave dash. They also increased her fastfall speed (which might also be nice for Zelda), so it's totally possible.

To give a character a longer wavedash, you just decrease their traction. As a side note, that would also increase the amount Zelda slides when her shield is hit (good or a bad thing, depending).

I would NOT want Zelda to fall any faster. I would love for her NOT to die off the stop so stupidly early, but it would completely ruin her game, as well as severely nerf her recovery. She doesn't have the kind of combo game that would benefit from being a fast-faller. Additonally, the main reason Zelda's recovery is so good is that she can drift for a long time. Fox travels almost the same distance with his Firefox as Zelda does with her teleport, but her recovery is longer because she can 'float' back

@ Karmaic Avidity

 

[Miryafa]

I'd like to add that there are a few lead-ins to the Xeldorno combo (that's the name for the flow-chart above, right?). From most basic (in my opinion) to most complicated:

• out of shield (press up, then almost immediately c-up to start)
• tipper f-tilt
• land-cancelled Nayru's Love

And in certain situations:

• down-tilt (requires high %)
  
• dash attack (with bad DI see Kaeldiar's comment below)
• L-cancelled up-air sweet-spot (at low %)
• L-cancelled down-air sweet-spot (grounded opponent at low %)
• them hitting a Din's Fire from above, near the ground (requires mid-high %, not reliable)

 

[Kaeldiar]

I'd like to add that there are a few lead-ins to the Xeldorno combo
And in certain situations:

• dash attack (with bad DI)

Actually, DI doesn't really matter much for dash attack. All that matters is sweetspot or not. Sweetspot dash attack will lead into a combo on most characters. Non-sweetspot will NEVER lead into a combo (sometimes a tech chase if derp happens)

 

[4tlas]

Actually, DI doesn't really matter much for dash attack. All that matters is sweetspot or not. Sweetspot dash attack will lead into a combo on most characters. Non-sweetspot will NEVER lead into a combo (sometimes a tech chase if derp happens)

I've combo'd out of the early and late hits, if that's what you're referring to as sweet and non-sweet.

 

[Kaeldiar]

I've combo'd out of the early and late hits, if that's what you're referring to as sweet and non-sweet.

No. There is a late hit and an early hit to both the sourspot and the sweetspot, but that's not what I'm referring to. Here's a gif of dash attack in 3.5

A numbered list of points I would like to make (I like lists)
1. There is the sweetspot, which is closer to Zelda and sends them up. If you want to combo, this is the one you want.

2. There is the sourspot, which is farther away from Zelda and sends them away. This is the "push" hitbox that is good for pushing people off the stage into an edgeguard scenario. It is difficult to combo out of this one unless they DI in, but techchases are possible

3. Each hitbox has an early hit and a late hit. The early hit is stronger, the late hit is weaker. That is the only difference

4. It is incredibly difficult to get a late sweetspot, due to hitbox placement. The opponent would have to somehow fall on top of it.

5. This means that 95% of the time, the "late hit" will be a sourspot

6. This does NOT mean that the early hit is usually a sweetspot

While we're at it some more facts about dash attack...
7. The sweetspot takes priority over the sourspot for both the early and the late hit.

8. The sourspot is transcendent, but the sweetspot is not (wtf, okay?)

9. Hitboxes are active 6-8 (early) and 9-17 (late)

 

[4tlas]

Ok I guess I'm talking about early and late sweetspots. It didn't feel that way to me though. I always found it easy to hit with the late combo" box by aiming for them to fall onto the dash attack. Works every time.

 

[WhiteCrow]

If y'all really want auto combos you should study and practice first hit auto cancelled up airs. It is one of the few options Zelda has that consistently nets follow ups and foot stools.

 

[Miryafa]

If y'all really want auto combos you should study and practice first hit auto cancelled up airs. It is one of the few options Zelda has that consistently nets follow ups and foot stools.

Could you go into more depth about these follow ups, and how consistent you can get footstools? (My impression is that Zelda is terrible for footstools because of her low fall speed and bad options when she's above an opponent)

 

[Kaeldiar]

If y'all really want auto combos you should study and practice first hit auto cancelled up airs. It is one of the few options Zelda has that consistently nets follow ups and foot stools.

"How does one land those to begin with?" is a better question

 

[WhiteCrow]

Could you go into more depth about these follow ups, and how consistent you can get footstools? (My impression is that Zelda is terrible for footstools because of her low fall speed and bad options when she's above an opponent)

Zelda's fall speed is pretty wretched for foot stooling but that doesn't mean it's impossible or that she has bad options off of foot stools. Auto cancelled first hit up air (dubbed jazz hands for this post) sets your opponent into hit stun with Zelda having no end lag. Your followups are strongly based on your opponent's DI, but since the auto cancel has no lag you have enough time to follow up based on reaction. Jazz hands are affected by percent so some follow ups aren't possible at higher percents. This is most notable for foot stools. Fall speed also drastically dictates which followups you can choose. At mid percents it's very easy to jazz hands>grab and jazz hands>f-smash against the space animals and other fast fallers. Jazz hands>foot stool works best against tall characters since it's easier to time the foot stool (or dair since they require roughly the same timing and precision). If you practice jazz hands>foot stool>dair or jazz hands>dair>foot stool near the ledge you'll understand the spacing a little better. Foot stools are such a niche technique to have that it's difficult to use them mid match, especially if you've never practiced with them.

"How does one land those to begin with?" is a better question

Hard reads. Punish get up attacks, tech's in, whiffed smash attacks, shield breaks, team distractions, Din's confirms, ect. It isn't a super practical technique but it can lead into guaranteed KO set ups. It's most practical application is for punishing characters recovering to the stage with laggy recoveries like Marth, Sheik, Diddy Kong, and Captain Falcon. It's also especially effective for edge guarding tether characters when they are forced to recover to the stage. When a lightning kick will only send them across the stage and when a rising nair/up air won't KO you can rely on jazz hands to pop them up for a proper confirm.

 

[Downdraft]

@ Karmaic Avidity Any more flowcharts or a better made one?

 

[Miryafa]

On that note, is "Din's to cover the far tech roll" really a combo? Whenever I try this, my opponent hits the ground and tech rolls away further and faster than I can put a Din's there.

And in general, when I do hit them with a Din's, I can't approach and LK fast enough to take advantage of hitstun. Can this combo achieve Din's > LK from 0%?

 

[4tlas]

On that note, is "Din's to cover the far tech roll" really a combo? Whenever I try this, my opponent hits the ground and tech rolls away further and faster than I can put a Din's there.

And in general, when I do hit them with a Din's, I can't approach and LK fast enough to take advantage of hitstun. Can this combo achieve Din's > LK from 0%?

Dins has like no hitstun at 0%, so what you need to do is already be approaching them when they hit it. So for the tech roll coverage, place it in the area they would stand up into but are not hitting while prone, and then approach while they are getting up into the Dins. Generally, placing it slightly on the far side of them will assure that you can get there in time.

 

[WhiteCrow]

On that note, is "Din's to cover the far tech roll" really a combo? Whenever I try this, my opponent hits the ground and tech rolls away further and faster than I can put a Din's there.

And in general, when I do hit them with a Din's, I can't approach and LK fast enough to take advantage of hitstun. Can this combo achieve Din's > LK from 0%?

Like 4tlas said Din's Fire really doesn't have enough hit stun to work like that, but it works for DI and tech chase traps. If you get a grab and there's a grounded Din behind you then you can down throw and short hop double bair to cover both DI in and DI away>Din. Put your lightning kicks where you expect your opponent to be and not where they already are getting hit by a Din, it helps with the spacing.

Din's Fire leads to decent up air hit confirms at high percent against floaties and tech chases against fast fallers. You can do it at 0% if they don't shield or CC your Din, and if you're close enough to LK, and if they don't react to you jumping in. It's not very practical but it's possible. It's good practice to put your Din's Fire traps behind your opponent so you can confirm off the returning commit instead of the initial hit. Two moving targets (Zelda + Comet) are harder to prepare for than one.

EDIT: And on the note of Xeldorno combos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnTaLOGVpKU

 

[Miryafa]

EDIT: And on the note of Xeldorno combos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnTaLOGVpKU

I must've missed it - where were the Xeldorno combos?

 

[Filosafer]

You can still pseudo telesnap by shorthopping, then shortening upB right in front of the ledge.

 

[Miryafa]

You can still pseudo telesnap by shorthopping, then shortening upB right in front of the ledge.

Yes, we know. It's much harder and nowhere near as good. It's not a replacement.