I Keep losing to spam.

[AkashSky]

So Personally I think there is alot of imbalanced **** in project m. However, thinking logically, these have to be my own personal biases because if they REALLY were broken and imbalanced im sure they would have been nerfed in 3.0.

So here I'm asking for help on ways to counter spam as a LUCARIO main.

1. Zelda... This character is campy as ****. I always get caught into the nuetral B and the fire torch things she throws at you from far away. The only decent move about this character is the toe; everything else i get hit with and don't know how to counter, especially the neutral B ledge guard.

2. Ivysaur---pretty much everything about this character. But I don't know what exactly was nerfed in 3.0.
Razor leaf is litterally hitler.
Forward throw kills at unreasonably low %, (I guess i just have to learn to smash DI , but can you smash Di throws?)
I hate the seeds cause they stun, also the bulb does way to much damage to me with the flower.

3.Mario-- pretty much just the mass fireball spam. Other than that i dont have too many issues with mario.

Is there anyway to punish these characters that spam these moves? Because I can't seem to do anything about it and when I try to attack them they just use the move again and I get hit with it.

 

[dRevan64]

man I hope you never meet a falco player
the basic thing with projectiles is to avoid them you get close to the other dude and hit him in the face, luc has some decent options for doing this like jump straight over the razor leaf (which has been nerfed incidentally) hitting zelda's fireballs since and just generally spacing around projectiles. Mario's especially shouldn't be giving you that much trouble.
also no you can't sdi throws since they don't have hitlag

 

[Darkgun]

man I hope you never meet a falco player

This. I got a laugh off it, too.

To enlighten a bit on specific examples...
• Zelda's nB has a fair few invincibility frames on startup, but if you space correctly, bait it out, or shield it closely, you may be able to get a solid punish, such as an uSmash OoS, a grab, or a short combo string. The fireballs shouldn't be to big of an issue, since you can destroy them with any aerial and even OHC off of said hits (grounded attacks will clash, and thus provide no OHC option). Try ESC>air dodge if your opponent is guarding aggressively with nB.
• I wish I knew more about Ivysaur. I can at least suggest you DI up and towards Ivy for the fthrow, and that if you need to (and have space to) get back to neutral against (or at the very get least away from) Ivy, DI away while being hit by Razor Leaf to be dragged away with it. There were quite a few changes to Ivy to increase the precision required to land advantageous hitboxes, so the chances of you getting sweetspot has likely diminished as of 3.0.
• I also have an issue with Mario's Fireballs, but since they are a predictable path and speed, you (and your opponent, naturally) should have a general idea of your movement options. Be sure to not overlook DT, as it has been made much easier to use as of 3.0. Also, like Zelda's Din's Fire, you can OHC off of fireballs (and most projectiles, actually).

The most effective punish options, I would be so bold to say, will come out of good spacing, and the use of platforms (where applicable) with general basic and tech skills to move.

 

[AkashSky]

man I hope you never meet a falco player
the basic thing with projectiles is to avoid them you get close to the other dude and hit him in the face, luc has some decent options for doing this like jump straight over the razor leaf (which has been nerfed incidentally) hitting zelda's fireballs since and just generally spacing around projectiles. Mario's especially shouldn't be giving you that much trouble.
also no you can't sdi throws since they don't have hitlag

Is falco even more spammy? I don't really have a problem losing to a character if they are using more then 1-3 moves and not just spamming a single move.

I'll definitely try to OHC the fireballs that seems like a good approach option to arial then cancel into down b.

This. I got a laugh off it, too.

To enlighten a bit on specific examples...
• Zelda's nB has a fair few invincibility frames on startup, but if you space correctly, bait it out, or shield it closely, you may be able to get a solid punish, such as an uSmash OoS, a grab, or a short combo string. The fireballs shouldn't be to big of an issue, since you can destroy them with any aerial and even OHC off of said hits (grounded attacks will clash, and thus provide no OHC option). Try ESC>air dodge if your opponent is guarding aggressively with nB.
• I wish I knew more about Ivysaur. I can at least suggest you DI up and towards Ivy for the fthrow, and that if you need to (and have space to) get back to neutral against (or at the very get least away from) Ivy, DI away while being hit by Razor Leaf to be dragged away with it. There were quite a few changes to Ivy to increase the precision required to land advantageous hitboxes, so the chances of you getting sweetspot has likely diminished as of 3.0.
• I also have an issue with Mario's Fireballs, but since they are a predictable path and speed, you (and your opponent, naturally) should have a general idea of your movement options. Be sure to not overlook DT, as it has been made much easier to use as of 3.0. Also, like Zelda's Din's Fire, you can OHC off of fireballs (and most projectiles, actually).

The most effective punish options, I would be so bold to say, will come out of good spacing, and the use of platforms (where applicable) with general basic and tech skills to move.

What is DT? is it down throw? and What about it is better as of 3.0?

 

[PcTriumph]

Don't forget that Lucario's Aura Sphere is actually a pretty powerful projectile, and will flat out beat fireballs (if they don't bounce over it), Razor Leaf, and weak Din's Fire. You can also down-b through a lot of projeciles and straight into a cancel if you have aura. And Falco pretty much locks down the entire stage with short hop lasers. I have no idea how to successfully play the matchup against Falco, despite him being combo bait for Lucario.

Edit: Learning how to powershield can be effective too, slow Razor leaf and fireballs are pretty easy to powershield. If the opponent is really camping hard but aren't hitting you, charging aura with up-taunt is also an option.

 

[Szion]

I have this same problem (except the losing part. I eventually get bored and develop the patience to wait for oppurtunities.

 

[Mono.]

One of the first steps to becoming a better player in any fighting game you play is to understand that there are characters with tools designed to zone or control space and will very well make use of these tool against you. Depending on what character you play, it will force you to play differently and will make you feel both uncomfortable and irritated because you're constantly taking what seems like cheap damage. This is something you're going to have to learn to deal with and overcome.

 

[dRevan64]

Is falco even more spammy? I don't really have a problem losing to a character if they are using more then 1-3 moves and not just spamming a single move.



What is DT? is it down throw? and What about it is better as of 3.0?

yeah you'll HATE falco
DT is double team or down b, you mentioned it there anyway but abbreviations are hard

 

[Szion]

Basically you can just stop approaching them and use ur stronger attacks to cancel projectiles when ever possible,

 

[ZaloMonkada]

I'm having a lot of trouble with a falco that spams lasers to force me to come to him. He'll short hop away and lazer towards me until I get close and if I get hit he gets a free engage. If I don't he just screw kicks at me or runs away. Any idea what I should do?

 

[AbstractLogic]

This is honestly more of a player thing than a character issue. I would work on your movement and ways of maneuvering around these projectiles or attacks. You have 8 minutes on the clock so don't feel like you HAVE to rush in because chances are that's what the opponent wants. Just work on slowly closing the gap to where it is unsafe for them to continue spamming and work on your perfect shields to help pressure them back. In the instance of Zelda, make sure to capitalize on her lack of mobility. She really isn't as safe as people make her out to be.

 

[HK_Spadez]

Don't know if anyone addressed this. But getting ledge guarded by neutral B by zelda just means u arent sweet spotting onto the ledge.

Either DI Up and on the way back u can down B back onto stage. or make sure ur up B sweet spots the ledge