Ike's Down Smash Viability

[ZestE]

So recently, I've been noticing that down smash has some interesting uses. Some of the best ones I've noticed are:
-1st hit of Dsmash when you're at the edge facing into the stage
-Reversing and using the second hit a little late to throw off approaches
-lucky stage spikes edgeguarding.

I realize a lot of them are circumstantial and probably succeeded due to a combination of luck and surprise, but it got me thinking about down smash's uses. The first hit seems like a great mix up since it's not too slow and throws them behind you, and I think it has some great uses at the edge (1st example) since they won't be expecting that at all.

I'm still relatively new to the competitive scene, so I figured I'd ask more experienced players for some input in case I'm not seeing something. Let me know what you guys think about Dsmash applications!

 

[Commander]

If you look at the frame data you would notice that Dsmash comes out in 12 frames(for reference ftilt is 11 frames). This means in almost any time period where ou can ftilt you can use dsmash instead.

 

[King of Hoboz]

I use it for a rare instance where I can crouch cancel someone.

 

[Commander]

I use it for a rare instance where I can crouch cancel someone.

Rare instances? Ike has a weight of 105, (Ganondorf is 108). Ike can crouch cancel almost everything till he gets deep into the 100s for percentage.

 

[King of Hoboz]

Yeah, but D-Smash is still slow 'for a crouch cancel option'. Hence, I tend to tell people Ike can't really CC things.

 

[metroid1117]

Ike's most reliable CC options are jab and grab, but DSmash might work depending on the situation. As for DSmash's use in general, IMO it's a move that I don't use enough and should experiment with it more, since it sends opponents behind Ike (which is generally an uncommon trajectory) and can potentially throw off someone's DI. It's really good for edgeguarding characters like Sheik and Wolf, too.

 

[Commander]

Ike's most reliable CC options are jab and grab, but DSmash might work depending on the situation. As for DSmash's use in general, IMO it's a move that I don't use enough and should experiment with it more, since it sends opponents behind Ike (which is generally an uncommon trajectory) and can potentially throw off someone's DI. It's really good for edgeguarding characters like Sheik and Wolf, too.

Falco will die at 0% if dsmashed near the ledge. Since it has some start up to it you can send it out before the opponent hits you and end up with a nice trade where you crouch cancel and they go flying.

 

[ZestE]

It's not necessarily the quickest move, but it's not a bad move at all. Doesn't seem like much of a combo tool, but I think it has potential as a rewarding member of Ike's arsenal of options.

 

[Commander]

It's not necessarily the quickest move, but it's not a bad move at all. Doesn't seem like much of a combo tool, but I think it has potential as a rewarding member of Ike's arsenal of options.

Any place you can fit ftilts you can fit in dsmashes. It has more combo viability than you think, but like everything for Ike it is DI dependent.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

CC Dsmash to QD grab is sorta real.

 

[Strong Badam]

Dsmash is great, particularly against recoveries you want to edgeguard loop like Sheik and Falcon. Get up on stage and dsmash their landing and they go flying off stage, Samus/Peach style.

 

[Deleted member]

real talk ike's grab is godly to the point where CCgrab is pretty much the only option worth considering imo

 

[Commander]

real talk ike's grab is godly to the point where CCgrab is pretty much the only option worth considering imo

When doing CCgrab do you just grab from the crouch or do let go of the crouch 1st?

 

[King of Hoboz]

You're better off just grabbing from the crouch. Why complicate the motions?

 

[Deleted member]

When doing CCgrab do you just grab from the crouch or do let go of the crouch 1st?

optimally, you want to be holding the C stick already (beforehand) when you get hit to optimize ASDI, as well as you want to try the SDI at the time of being hit, and to let go and trust your DI enough to grab whatever lag the attack has leftover. on one hand, this is fairly hard to do and requires a few months of practice to really get. on the other hand, this also frees up some frames for you to occasionally dashgrab with ike, which is actually phenomenal because it means you can CCgrab even some attacks that are well spaced that ike would otherwise have no answer to.

however, i have not found a real answer to this character for hitting low crouches on small characters. so for example, i got sacked by chu's kirby last time i played him with ike because i had no out to aerial > buffer crouch > anything, because whether i blocked or crouched kirby's anything i wasn't able to punish him for it due to the buffer crouch. the end result is that you have to attack kirby's attacks, because if you don't he gets in for free and can literally just attack you and keep interrupting the start-up on your attacks and ike can't do anything if he does it correctly. trading with kirby is actually not as terrible as it sounds but if the opponent has good aggression then it starts to look like brawl where ike folds to shield abuse too. i haven't found an out for this scenario yet. the interesting part is that marth actually has the same problem, where roy is just like lolno because all his **** is basically designed to be CC-proof.

You're better off just grabbing from the crouch. Why complicate the motions?

because we all wanna git gud

 

[Player -0]

When you guys grab from crouch do you shield -> shieldgrab? I get D-Tilt whenever I hit Z from crouch.

 

[Commander]

You're better off just grabbing from the crouch. Why complicate the motions?

I meant do you just press z/shield+attack while holding down or do you have to let go of the stick first.

 

[ZestE]

Would it be better to connect the second hit of dsmash or try using another follow up option? Ive never connected the second hit before because I feel like it's a higher risk than reward

 

[Spralwers]

dsmash is hilarious on spacies

 

[metroid1117]

Would it be better to connect the second hit of dsmash or try using another follow up option? Ive never connected the second hit before because I feel like it's a higher risk than reward

I've never gotten with the second hit after connecting with the first, but if they try CC'ing the first hit and end up behind you, then I can see it working. It sends the opponent away from Ike instead of behind him, so it'll send the opponent in relatively the same direction as the first DSmash.

 

[Player -0]

It could be decent for D-Smash if you read a roll but they do normal get up then 2nd hit ftw.

 

[ZestE]

It could be decent for D-Smash if you read a roll but they do normal get up then 2nd hit ftw.

I never even thought of that, that sounds pretty great actually. It sounds dependent on the character's roll is though.

I was also thinking about using Dsmash on players that DI down or in a lot. I know that smart players who know the matchup will DI out, but you might be able to catch a few who don't know that and after a while critically punish that habit. But I have yet to try it

 

[MLGF]

I dunno, I just find that there are better combo starters and better things to do off a hard read.

 

[Player -0]

Stop being Falcon. You need to be more Falco.