Lucas Approach Options

[Sur Fartsalot]

I decided to use Lucas as a secondary, and I've been trying him out. One problem I fine is that when I approach, I always get shielded then grabbed, smashed, etc. I always go with either short hop Nair, short hop grab, short hop PK freeze, or short hop Dair (see a pattern ) . Occasionally, I dash attack cancel grab, but I don't normally do this because it's really easy to punish. Advice?

Edit: If this thread is found somewhere else, it would be great if someone could post the link. I couldn't find one, so I made this. If there is one, sorry mods/admins :/

 

[Scraket]

I recommend learning how to DJC pk freeze. Its superior to short hop pk freeze in almost every way
Oh and heres some advice copy and pasted straight from Deepvoiceguy's guide

Approach:

Primarily use DJC PKF from mid-range or farther. PKF resembles a combination of Wolf/Falco's projectile in that it's a moderately fast projectile with a decently sized hitbox and causes the opp to stay in a few frames of hitstun, resulting in an opportunity to open up the opponent. This is a great tool to block out many options and suffocate opponents from mid-distance. At low %, PKF can tack on some good, fast dmg. Best conversions would be getting a grab on opp's that like to hide more in shield or block out PKF, or lead in with a Fair / Nair / Magnet. PKF followups largely depend on the opponent's reaction. CC'ing opponents will be discussed below. Against heavies & fast fallers, they will fall back to the ground, where a Nair could lead into a grab or combo opportunity, and a spaced out sweetspot Fair will expose the opponent more reliably and lead to a better punish. PKF can combo into DACUS at higher % as the enemy pops up slightly higher. OU DACUS is most reliable as the spacing for PKF -> DACUS is very tight, whereas OU has twice as large a hitbox. Missing DACUS on shield isn't terrible since Lucas will continue flying away, but whiffing in neutral can be a big punish opportunity for the opponent. Don't forget, PKF only has a few frames of hitstun before the opponent can escape and retaliate.

RAR Bair should only be used from a slightly closer safe range that PKF is used at. High startup combined with being extremely unsafe on shield means this aerial needs to be precisely spaced out. Risk/reward is about even as Bair stuns opponents in place until approx. 20% and pops them up at higher %’s (around 30-50% will always pop opp. slightly up and away). At the lower % Bair to Ftilt, dash atk / Dair, grab, or magnet are the best options. Against an opponent that is crouch canceling the Bair, I recommend Dair, magnet, or grab as dash atk / sourspot Fair can also be CC'd much easier. If the opponent attempts to quickly counter (FireEmblem) or use an actual counter attack (any smash atk / tilts), use Bair -> Shield, then punish accordingly against the attack.

Up close using spaced out Fair is the best go-to option and cross-up Nair/Dair when opponent is constantly CCing. A sweetspot Fair will knock the opponent away or down, and if it doesn't, Lucas will be at a far enough distance away to avoid a punish on the hit. If sweetspot Fair knocks the opponent in the air, begin combo'ing and racking on some meaty damage.

Running forward magnet is a good approach and combo starter as well as Fair. This move can create some great shield pressure if the enemy decides to block, and a grounded magnet can be JC'd into grab or aerial magnet -> Fair. Most times, I will approach with a grounded magnet then WD back to either bait my opp. or start a combo. If I see the opp. going for shield grabs, I will run forward with magnet, then cross-up with Nair/Dair or JC out of magnet and use an airdodge -> Zair to punish the whiffed grab. 3.5 only slightly nerfed Magnet on shield, so magnet -> mag/Fair/Dair/Nair pressure on shield still works.

Dash atk is only good from approx. 30-80% The opponent will be more reckless during these percents and less likely to shield. Condition opponents to punish dash atk with shield as spot dodges lose to dash atk and Dair most times. Mix up dash atk with running forward then spacing out DJC Fair. Similar hitboxes, but Fair will create an opportunity for shield pressure. Dash atk can follow-up very well into aerial strings or up smash at this %. Late hit dash atk sends the opp. at a horizontal 15-30 degree angle, and can force the opp. to react very defensively, allowing multiple opportunities for either ledge guards or pressuring into shield / panic smash atks.​

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

So I went on youtube to find how to DJC, but I don't really understand how to do it. So I understand you have to jump twice and then do PK freeze, but I don't really know when to do it. If anyone could elaborate that would be great!

 

[Badge]

So I went on youtube to find how to DJC, but I don't really understand how to do it. So I understand you have to jump twice and then do PK freeze, but I don't really know when to do it. If anyone could elaborate that would be great!

Essentially you shorthop, wait about 1/4 of a second and then as fast as possible DJ->SideB. If no PKF comes out you didn't wait long enough before you DJed, if you rise with PKF you were too slow with the PKF after the DJ. Waiting too long before the DJ only makes the technique worse but not fail completely (unless you wait far, far too long). You want your PKF to come out very near to the ground as landing sooner/less airtime is the main advantage of DJC PKF over SH PKF.

 

[20PK]

Double Jump Cancelling just works by being able to cancel the full height of your second double jump by immediately seguing to an attack. You can perform them with any aerial and L cancel those, but you can't L cancel PKFs since they're technically special moves, not aerial attacks.

As I mentioned in the General Lucas Discussion, I find it tough to do non-claw grip DJC PKFs without mapping L to Jump (I also use tap jump and Y, so 3 jump buttons but it gets the job done), so experiment with it - I think it comes a little more naturally because the input is similar to wavedash. Now that I think about it I could play around with mapping R to jump and L to shield so that the Y and R to double jump can be pressed more rapidly, being on the same side of the controller, but I'm way too used to using R for wavedashing.

There is exact frames for DJC PKF in another post by Badge

Two timings:
frame 1: jump
(frame 5: airborn)
frame 9/11: DJ
frame 14/12: PKF

Obviously the timing with the later DJ is better, because it's faster, safer (later DJ means lower chance of getting hit out of it) and you have no chance of cancelling your PKF before it comes out once you've hit the DJ timing. It's also easier to PKF on the next frame than having a frame perfect pause, if you are fast enough to do so (claw ftw). If you can't go from jump to B within a frame and don't want to claw, you'll have to settle for the slower variant.

That said, I don't think it's worth it to try and get consistent at perfect PKFs, because 1 frame timings are hard and it doesn't autocancel anymore. PKF not autocanceling also means that it's harder to combo off of a long distance PKF. Aim for a frame 12.1 DJ normally and a frame 11.3 DJ if you want the long distance. (Meaning: try to go for a DJ on frame 12/11 but it's better to be late by one frame than early.)

People already didn't bother learning perfect PKFs when they were still near Falco laser levels of broken due to autocancels. It's gotten a bit safer and easier execution wise to do so now, though, as long as you're clawing or have really fast fingers.

Also Badge with all this sick Lucas knowledge you're dropping I'd be keen to see some vids of you playing him.

 

[Scraket]

Just a heads up that changing your controller scheme isn't necessary but it may help you if you fiddle around and find something that works. I personally use the default controls and just do Y-Y-Side B for the djc pk freeze

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

With Wii Remote its a bit trickier with me :/
Thanks for all the help! I might post any questions I have later, but thanks!

 

[20PK]

Just a heads up that changing your controller scheme isn't necessary but it may help you if you fiddle around and find something that works. I personally use the default controls and just do Y-Y-Side B for the djc pk freeze

Oh yeah, I didn't mean it to sound like it's the best way for most people, it's just something that works for me at the moment. I'm still new to the game so maybe as I play more I'll see more disadvantages and just switch back to a regular control scheme. I go into this in a little more detail in a Lucas discussion thread.

With Wii Remote its a bit trickier with me :/
Thanks for all the help! I might post any questions I have later, but thanks!

With Wii Remote

Wii Remote

 

[Badge]

With Wii Remote its a bit trickier with me :/
Thanks for all the help! I might post any questions I have later, but thanks!

If you're even halfway serious about playing Smash, and you posting here indicates you are, I'd switch to a different controller. I can understand not wanting to make the switch away from Remote+Nunchuk or such if you're not trying to get competitive, but Wii Remote just limits you far too much.

Also about your original question: The most important technique you should learn for approaching is dashdancing. SH NAir for example, depending on the distance, can connect faster than your opponent is able to react to your jump. What you usually do is react to the opponent starting an approach, but proper dashdancing makes it near impossible to know that you're about to go in before it's too late.
tl;dr: You don't have to always go in if you're going towards.

Next, against shielding: Learn to JC grab (jump and then grab before you leave the ground, this allows you to do your standing grab out of a dash/run). It's much less punishable than a dash grab and unreactable (unless your opponent expects it and has a godly reaction time, maybe).
Further, if you NAir an opponent's shield and l-cancel it, jab them. Jab beats out many oos options and your opponent has to respect Jab 2, so mixing up between using Jab 2 (if they don't respect it) and not using it (if they do) is already okay shield pressure. You also don't always have to jab. If your opponent expects the jab and tries to wait it out, you can just grab them.

Transferring to using magnet and DJC FAir as your primary approach tools would be the next step (both are safe on shield, if you have a plan for what to do afterwards), but I don't think you'll be able to wd out of magnet or djc l-cancel FAir consistently with a Wiimote.

DJC PKF is probably your most reliable tool in the beginning. The only problem is that there's tons of counterplay to it that makes it a really fair projectile later and that you won't learn real fundamentals if you're used to being able to PKF->grab 95% of the time.

Also Badge with all this sick Lucas knowledge you're dropping I'd be keen to see some vids of you playing him.

I barely touched Lucas since 3.0. He feels really awkward with all the minuscle timing changes and I've also found other characters to better suit my play style. If I play Lucas nowadays it's purely on fundamentals without many character specific strategies or tech above DJC aerials (those thankfully didn't change). I only still post about Lucas because I have tons of knowledge from v1-3.0 and he's really fun to theorize about.

 

[D e l t a]

The best approach option to learn as a beginner Lucas (aside from playing on GCC over WiiMote), is to get down DJC PKF into aerial. Primarily, PKF into Fair. After I learned DJC PKF timings, playing as Lucas got significantly easier with a projectile on par with Falco. To this day, PKF into an aerial is still a fantastic approach option and forces your opponents to react accordingly or else they'll keep taking damage and getting combo'd out of PKF.

tl;dr Drop the WiiMote if you're serious about competitive play, and learn DJC PKF timings.

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

Lol, I've been practicing at my friend's house with GCC to get the hang of it, I started borrowing it. Since using it, I find it's a lot more awkward for me to use X and Y to jump in a serious match, however the C-stick does come in handy quite a few times. On the other hand, since I've gotten use to WiiMote, I easily shorthop without messing up it a regular match, compared to Gamecube where I sometimes jump to high. Other than the alternate jump buttons and the C-stick, is there anything else that good about gamecube? I mean I've gotten used to using WiiMote, and I'm not sure about the whole switch.

 

[D e l t a]

Other than the alternate jump buttons and the C-stick, is there anything else that good about gamecube?

GCC has more flexible options, will never de-sync or require batteries, feels better overall. Basically most players that ported from Melee stuck with the GCC to Brawl & Sm4sh. DACUS is much easier to perform and most tech skill is generally easier. Plus, there isn't wireless interference or lag.

 

[Badge]

Other than the alternate jump buttons and the C-stick, is there anything else that good about gamecube?

In addition to what Deepvoiceguy said, it also has an analog stick, which is required for quite a bit of tech, lightpress shoulder buttons (e.g. for l-cancelling without tech input) and just more buttons which you can use to make whatever is hard easier. Further, as most people use it you'll get much better input on how to perform techniques with it than with WiiMote.

For Lucas in particular, multiple jump buttons, c-stick and an analog stick are almost required to perform certain tech well like DJC aerials, DJC PKFs or wavedashes.

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

Another question: How do people do dash->jump off stage->back air without losing momentum? Is this one of those things that require a GCC?

 

[D e l t a]

Another question: How do people do dash->jump off stage->back air without losing momentum? Is this one of those things that require a GCC?

I believe what you are referring to is a "drop down / drop zone" Bair. This is when you simply run off stage and immediately jump back up with a Bair. It can be performed with any controller. With a strict WiiMote only, this would require using the up direction of a wiimote for tap jump, a direction towards center stage, and the attack button. You lose full control without the ability to drop off and do this rising aerial 1 of 3 ways:

• Towards the stage- easiest to do. Simply requires analog stick and attack button. -> Jump +->+
• Straight up- fairly easy. Can also be performed with 2-3 inputs. -> Jump ->+
• Retreating- Getting difficult now. -> Jump ->+

Extra advanced stuff if you care to read

Spoiler

With these 3 options, there's also the option of adding direction to back off or go forward after the attack. Such as I hit them with the Bair going up and towards the stage, they CC it, but I'm already retreating, therefore their attack misses and I have a safe Bair off the ledge. OR, I do a retreating drop down rising Bair, it misses, now I want to get back towards the stage. The spacing and choice to retreat or move closer to the stage is based more on the situation. If you're getting pressured super hard, it's nice to have full control of your character so that you can regain momentum safely.

GCC allows full control of your character that a WiiMote simply cannot provide.

 

[GPJ4RCE]

Mixed up djc pk freezes with short hop freezes are a really good approach. Maybe throw in an empty hop to grab when closer.

 

[D e l t a]

Mixed up djc pk freezes with short hop freezes are a really good approach. Maybe throw in an empty hop to grab when closer.

While tomahawk grabs are nice, they're only practical with mixups. Because the enemy can see you landing (4 frames landing lag) and assuming you don't accidentally pull up shield because you press grab too early, it's 12 frames before your grab will reach them. Therefore time falling to ground + 4 + 12 = fall time + 16 frames before you frame perfect tomahawk grab your opponent.

I would say only do this if your opponent has been conditioned to stay in shield because your shield pressure is very good and you're constantly attacking -OR- if your opponent isn't that good / can't perform OoS aerials well assuming you crossed the enemy up on shield.

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

What are tomahawk grabs?

 

[D e l t a]

Empty hop = tomahawk

So empty hop -> grab / smash = tomahawk grab / smash attack

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

So tomahawk grab is when you short hop and press the grab button in the air? Also, how should I use a pivot grab? The wiki didn''t really specify, so it would be great if someone could clarify.

 

[Kipcom]

So tomahawk grab is when you short hop and press the grab button in the air? Also, how should I use a pivot grab? The wiki didn''t really specify, so it would be great if someone could clarify.

No, a tomahawk is when you jump, land, and then do a grab or attack once you've landed.

So for example, you are holding shield because you expected me to do an aerial or dash attack on your shield, so that you could get a grab on me. Instead of me hitting your shield with that aerial or dash attack, I jump in front (or behind you), and then I grab you once I land. Since you were expecting an aerial, you don't react to me just landing on the ground, thus giving me the opportunity to get the grab on your first.

Of course, people can read this kind of mindgame as well, so it's not like it's going to work 100% of the time.

 

[D e l t a]

Tomahawk is the same thing as empty hop. It's simply jumping then landing and performing an action on the ground.


This can bait out an opponents OoS option or keep them scared in shield. The average person will react to your landing & not doing an aerial approximately 3-8 frames later at high levels and about 9-20 frames later at most other levels. So this is a good mixup if you like to land with an aerial attack all the time and condition your opponent to stay in shield.

If the enemy goes to jump, it will be about 3-6 frames before they can jump and perform an aerial, whereas it takes you 4 frames of landing lag before you can act. When the enemy goes to roll, it takes 3 frames before they gain invincibility, so you can catch them before they have roll invincibility

EDIT: Didn't see Kip's tips. The last part of what I said is the more techy / frame data side of why this works.

 

[trancex]

I've been thinking about and messing around with dash dancing, running, and approaches with magnet. You can stay very safe and unpredictable in neutral with running grounded magnet > wd back, or dash dance > jump + immediate aerial magnet > DJC fair/WL back. Hit confirms are easy as pie because you're going to be wavedashing back for combos anyways. Thoughts?

 

[D e l t a]

I've been thinking about and messing around with dash dancing, running, and approaches with magnet. You can stay very safe and unpredictable in neutral with running grounded magnet > wd back, or dash dance > jump + immediate aerial magnet > DJC fair/WL back. Hit confirms are easy as pie because you're going to be wavedashing back for combos anyways. Thoughts?

All of this works. Neon, myself, and many other Lucas' expanding their metagame are doing this. Fighting Lucas is all about reading the player. He has tons of options in neutral.