Luigi Tier Placement

[leesinger]

I think the community and many players currently have this wrong. I sincerely don't believe that Luigi is top 3 in the cast. He has too many bad Matchups and weaknesses for this to be the case. He is a fantastic character, make no mistake about that, but he is NOT top 3. I view him the same way I view Ness. Both have great options out of grab, quick aerials, ****ty recovery, a decent projectile, and slow run-speed and fall speed. Therefore I believe Luigi is certainly top 10, but he is NOT as good as everyone makes him out to be. He is a pub-stomper as in if you don't know how to deal with him and how to play against him then yes he will feel like an overpowered freight train. However simply by learning his weaknesses and he has many of them, he is probably the most overrated character in the game. I do believe he is top 10, he just has too many GOOD things about him not to be, but the top 3 charachters in my opinion, which again are Sheik, Pikachu, and ZSS are simply on another level.

One last point. Frankly, the idea of Tier Lists don't really encompass the true nature of character balance in a game, especially a game as well balanced as Smash4. I don't say that sarcastically either, this game is in a very good place right now, even the worst characters are playable, just not tourney viable, but hopefully that gets patched in over time. But yah, tier lists are dumb because actual balance is so much deeper than that and so dependent on matchups. I say pikachu is 3rd in the game, but Pikachu also struggles against Luigi, so it isn't as simple as just ordering characters on a list like that. Having said that , I want to reiterate once again that Luigi is top 10, not top 3 and for those of you who disagree with me, well I guarantee as the meta develops over time, I will be proven correct.

 

[Underhill]

I agree. Luigi is top ten, but he can struggle against characters who can camp him. Also, Luigi can have a hard time against Rosalina and Sheik.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I agree wholeheartedly. I love me some Luigi, but for ****'s sake, people, he's not top 3. I don't know about most overrated character in the game, I think Fox might compete with him there.

 

[leesinger]

I'm going to copy and paste this thread onto gen-discussion, because I feel like everyone will agree with me in this section considering we all play and understand how luigi works. Hopefully I'm allowed to do that.

 

[sims796]

I didn't realize people thought he was top 3. I always thought the general consensus was that he was always top ten.

 

[JohnnyB]

Some older tier lists have him as 3rd best after shiek and rosaluma. Most of the newer ones have him top 10-15.

 

[Yonder]

Some older tier lists have him as 3rd best after shiek and rosaluma. Most of the newer ones have him top 10-15.

Which newer ones have him top 15? None that I've seen. Zero and Esam still overrate him at 3rd, butt most lists I see have him at like 7th lowest.

Then again, Zer0 and Esam are the best players in the world, and Zer0 wants Luigi nerfed the most. Maybe we're missing something?

...

Nah. Maybe when they use the character they'll actually see his weaknesses.

 

[JohnnyB]

Dabuz and Ace both him at 9th. I thought the "official" tier list for August had him lower but nope, he is 3rd on that one too. I thought i saw one from a top level player that put Luigi at 11th but i can't find it so i might be wrong.

I hear what you are saying about Zero and Esam but if they want Luigi nerfed they had better start winning a lot of tourneys with him. If he is as good/brainless/easy as they say it shouldn't be hard for them to do.

I haven't seen any evidence that what top level North American players say has any bearing on patches. Tournament results seem to have something to do with it, but i don't think the dev team is listening when they preach about stuff like this.

 

[TriTails]

The fact he is probably Mario's worst MU, wins against Diddy, Sonic, Ness, Fox and Pikachu, as well as going even vs most top tiers except Rosalina and Sheik might be a factor.

And who the hell say Luigi is Top 3? ZeRo? ESAM? As much as I respect ZeRo, if there's anything that is good about him are definitely not his words, ESAM's tier list had Diddy at like 18th while Robin at 17th so take all of those with grain of salt.

The fact that ZeRo's first set loss was taken off by a Luigi and Luigi wins against Pika might fuel their bias too.

 

[leesinger]

The fact he is probably Mario's worst MU, wins against Diddy, Sonic, Ness, Fox and Pikachu, as well as going even vs most top tiers except Rosalina and Sheik might be a factor.

And who the hell say Luigi is Top 3? ZeRo? ESAM? As much as I respect ZeRo, if there's anything that is good about him are definitely not his words, ESAM's tier list had Diddy at like 18th while Robin at 17th so take all of those with grain of salt.

The fact that ZeRo's first set loss was taken off by a Luigi and Luigi wins against Pika might fuel their bias too.

Wtf are you smoking. Mario's worst matchup isn't luigi, not by a long shot; ever hear of sheik? And its 50/50 vs diddy, Sonic and Ness. He only beats fox so hard because of his ability to cripple fox off-stage and its maybe 55/45 in luigi's favor vs pikachu.

 

[Underhill]

Wtf are you smoking. Mario's worst matchup isn't luigi, not by a long shot; ever hear of sheik? And its 50/50 vs diddy, Sonic and Ness. He only beats fox so hard because of his ability to cripple fox off-stage and its maybe 55/45 in luigi's favor vs pikachu.

60/40 or in Luigi's favor against Pikachu, actually; Same for Fox which is in Luigi's favor. Unless Pikachu can out-space him, combo him carefully, throws him off stage and gimp him, then he's going to have a tough killing him, especially when Luigi has better damage output, better kills, dangerous anti-air up smash, and better throws for kills, combos, set ups. Fox got better juggles, mobility, and lasers to camp, but still not strong enough compare to Luigi's dangerous combo game, better kos, better edgeguarding, and throws. Both Pikachu and Fox are light and Luigi is their worst match up. Also, Luigi is Mario's worst MU, but probadly at 60/40 at best.

 

[TriTails]

Marios think Luigi vs Mario is around 40:60 Luigi and it's borderline in 35:65.

If Luigi didn't beat Mario then why am I seeing Larry's second Luigi 2 stocking Ally. Or Poke winning against Ally despite being lesser skilled. Or how Ally and Zenyou having troubles with Luigis.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Marios think Luigi vs Mario is around 40:60 Luigi and it's borderline in 35:65.

If Luigi didn't beat Mario then why am I seeing Larry's second Luigi 2 stocking Ally. Or Poke winning against Ally despite being lesser skilled. Or how Ally and Zenyou having troubles with Luigis.

Ally isn't the only Mario player in the world brah.

Now, to give my viewpoint on this, here's my states (And memhpis' high level characters)
Lucario (If you count Kami)
Ganon
Yoshi X3
........Me.
Megaman
Sheik X2
Fox X2 (No problem here)
Pikachu (And if he knew the match up he'd probably beat me)
Sonic/Bowser (No problem here)
Ness (NPH)
Doctor Mario
Rosalina X2

So you can imagine, I don't really think Luigi is even high tier. His weaknesses are just so abusable that sometimes you're forced to pick a secondary to even have a chance at winning IMO.

 

[lijero13ss]

Luigi is #4 IMO behind sheik rosa and zss. However, my opinion on this will probably change if we keep on having no luigi mains make top 16 at nationals.

But for now, to me he is #4. #MyOpinion

 

[KenMeister]

How do you guys feel Luigi does against Mega Man and ROB? It seems like he possibly loses to weird MUs like that due to being out camped on paper, but I wanted to see if this was a general viewpoint so that I'm not throwing ideas out of my butt. Even if he did lose those MUs though, I don't feel they'd be relevant enough to sink his tier placement.

 

[leesinger]

How do you guys feel Luigi does against Mega Man and ROB? It seems like he possibly loses to weird MUs like that due to being out camped on paper, but I wanted to see if this was a general viewpoint so that I'm not throwing ideas out of my butt. Even if did lose those MUs, I don't feel they'd be relevant enough to sink his tier placement.

Mega man is a hard counter to luigi, like debatably his hardest MU. Everything MegaMan has punishes luigi. MM has a great projectile game, can punish with grabs, can edgeguard luigi to hell and back, and don't even get me started on how good lemons are. Lemons literally beat every option has available. MU is 35:65 imo. Rob is 50/50. If luigi can get in and get the grab then you can pretty much combo him to 40-60%. Rob has great projectiles though and he has the tools to edgeguard Luigi. I've played against the best Robs in my state and gotten bodied because they understand how to wall Luigi out. They also use rob's dreidal to go for some nasty kill setups off of an edge guard. Rob's boxing game isn't horrible either and he can get kills off of grabs. I think its 50/50, but you could argue it being slightly in Rob's favor.

 

[Deleted member]

I think that he is top 10, not top 5.
Luigi has great strengths (such as his amazing combo game), but also pretty exploitable weaknesses (poor traction, air speed, limited approach, and a recovery that can easily be gimped for example). Some of the top tiers, like Sheik and Rosalina for example, can exploit these weaknesses to a certain extent. While he may give some top tiers a hard time, Luigi is given a hard time by perceived low tiers, like Little Mac for example.

I think some pros do blow it out of proportion with him; I doubt ZeRo would put him within top 5 range if ConCon didn't beat him (even then, that match was when ZeRo started to use Sheik).

For me, the top three is Sheik, Rosalina, and Zero Suit Samus.

 

[dehvin]

Seems only fellow Luigi mains actually see where Luigi truly ranks. Players who know the Luigi match up easily abuse all of his weakness's. Regarding the Megaman matchup, does anyone have any tips? I fought a MegaMan on the ladder and the lemons just completely stop you from moving it's rather frustrating.

 

[leesinger]

Seems only fellow Luigi mains actually see where Luigi truly ranks. Players who know the Luigi match up easily abuse all of his weakness's. Regarding the Megaman matchup, does anyone have any tips? I fought a MegaMan on the ladder and the lemons just completely stop you from moving it's rather frustrating.

You actually need a secondary for that MU. It isn't unwinnable, but the match is dictated by how well the megaman plays, not how well you play. If the megaman is using his projectiles and spacing aeirals properly and punishing your approach with grabs the MU is unwinnable. I picked up sheik a few days ago as a secondary just cause im tired of having to play the game according to how projectile users want it to be played. She can dictate the pace of the battle, not the other way around.

 

[TriTails]

Seems only fellow Luigi mains actually see where Luigi truly ranks. Players who know the Luigi match up easily abuse all of his weakness's. Regarding the Megaman matchup, does anyone have any tips? I fought a MegaMan on the ladder and the lemons just completely stop you from moving it's rather frustrating.

Shield lemons. Just shield. Not to punish, but to push him to the edge of the stage. When he is cornered that is your chance to punish his try to break through yourself due to lemons not being safe when unspaced. And don't fall for mixups.

And no. Contary to popular belief, pellets alone don't beat Luigi. The MU is in Mega's favor but I don't think it's a hard counter. 40:60 probably.

 

[leesinger]

Shield lemons. Just shield. Not to punish, but to push him to the edge of the stage. When he is cornered that is your chance to punish his try to break through yourself due to lemons not being safe when unspaced. And don't fall for mixups.

And no. Contary to popular belief, pellets alone don't beat Luigi. The MU is in Mega's favor but I don't think it's a hard counter. 40:60 probably.

Sounds like you haven't actually ever fought a top-level megaman before. "just sheild" is pretty much the worst advice I've ever heard of considering mega man can get guaranteed combos off of a grab on luigi. You realize lemons can auto cancel, so by shielding close to MM, you are basically guaranteeing he gets the grab.

 

[TriTails]

Sounds like you haven't actually ever fought a top-level megaman before. "just sheild" is pretty much the worst advice I've ever heard of considering mega man can get guaranteed combos off of a grab on luigi. You realize lemons can auto cancel, so by shielding close to MM, you are basically guaranteeing he gets the grab.

His combos are not strong enough to phase somone out.

He can auto-cancel all he wants. If a pellet hits our shield we can drop it to only take 1 frame of shield drop lag due to the mechanics of shield stun replacing shield drop lag whenever something hits a shield, and if he goes for a grab we can interrupt it with our fast jab.

And why would Mega Man auto cancel his lemons? It already has ZERO frames of landing lag. IIRC he still takes the lemons ending lag in which case when he press A once he can't do anything but walk, jump, or fire another pellet for another 35 frames. He can fire pellets all he wants, they aren't doing anything to our shield and if he decides to try something funny he can get hit due to 1 frame shield drop lag. He basically has to try to space his pellets ALL the time or else he can be punished, and walking backwards is a way to do it, which lets us corner him and put him in disadvantage.

 

[dehvin]

Shield lemons. Just shield. Not to punish, but to push him to the edge of the stage. When he is cornered that is your chance to punish his try to break through yourself due to lemons not being safe when unspaced. And don't fall for mixups.

And no. Contary to popular belief, pellets alone don't beat Luigi. The MU is in Mega's favor but I don't think it's a hard counter. 40:60 probably.

You say push him to corner, but he never left the corner. Not once. Once he was in the corner all approaches were stopped by the lemons. He would constantly jump and do whatever the lemons are when he jumps and then again when he hits the ground. Unless I am missing something, please tell me how to deal with that.

 

[TriTails]

You say push him to corner, but he never left the corner. Not once. Once he was in the corner all approaches were stopped by the lemons. He would constantly jump and do whatever the lemons are when he jumps and then again when he hits the ground. Unless I am missing something, please tell me how to deal with that.

Shield again, and try to hit him.

Why? Because unspaced lemons are baaad. Press one wrong button of lemon and he can possibly be punished by DA/dash grab/SHFF aerials, etc. Mega Man needs space to ensure his lemons are safe, and if they are unspaced he is most likely can be punished.

If he is doing mixups, then try to mindgame him. The reason why this MU is in Mega's favor is still because he edgeguards us like a god, and his pellets are still annoying despite our shield tactics. He can escape our cornering strategies if we aren't careful. Although, the deal is usually 'You get walled out by lemons, you die. You grab him a few times, he dies'.

Then again, I never see Mega with such precision. None of us are perfect, he might mess up and let us get a hit in. Shielding lemons are frankly easier than using them. To be honest, I got this strategy from a tourney Mega player, or two if we want to be precise. I also have dealt with pellets before and my strategy is basically shield and be patient. I have ever got walled out for 60% by only dealing like 3% to the Mega, then I just press the R button and magic happened, I got in, got a grab, racked up like 60% (Because apparently the Mega player doesn't seem to be aware of Luigi's combo setups, kept falling for baits), and took his stock in the next one or two grabs. Then I two-stocked him.

But this haven't been implemented yet (I think) by tourney Luigis. I'd like to see this tactic being used in competitive plays, and see how well this strategy work.

 

[MonkeyArms]

You say push him to corner, but he never left the corner. Not once. Once he was in the corner all approaches were stopped by the lemons. He would constantly jump and do whatever the lemons are when he jumps and then again when he hits the ground. Unless I am missing something, please tell me how to deal with that.

You have two ways of approaching: jumping over lemons, or walking under them. Mega man can't counter jumps very well.

 

[FUEGO!]

Ally isn't the only Mario player in the world brah.

Now, to give my viewpoint on this, here's my states (And memhpis' high level characters)
Lucario (If you count Kami)
Ganon
Yoshi X3
........Me.
Megaman
Sheik X2
Fox X2 (No problem here)
Pikachu (And if he knew the match up he'd probably beat me)
Sonic/Bowser (No problem here)
Ness (NPH)
Doctor Mario
Rosalina X2

So you can imagine, I don't really think Luigi is even high tier. His weaknesses are just so abusable that sometimes you're forced to pick a secondary to even have a chance at winning IMO.

I know I'm not that Pikachu, but I can dream....

Also we've talked about this, Luigi is top of Mid or Bottom high tier at best. I still like him...kinda found my soul this week and my Luigi has his chops back.