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MU help: Meta Knight
- Thread starter ividal
- Start date
Nikes
Smash Lord
We have a good MK player I fight regularly in my scene, so I'd be more than happy to help. I haven't got a full grasp of the MU yet so a lot of this will just be theory but I'll test and see if these work in action tomorrow.
Things to look out for are his dash attack into upB and his dash attack in general, his rolls, and dash grabs. He is very hard to punish since his smashes have practically no lag so he can just shield or roll away instantly, so your only real option is getting very good at reading and anticipating those rolls ahead of time...though he can sort of spam them back and forth and mix it up with how fast it is so getting the read is way easier said than done. >_> Idk if it's reliable or not but I actually really like egg roll in this MU since it's quick enough to punish rolls and jumping to the ledge with it and breaking out lets you get back to safety. I also find mixing up my movement and dashing back and forth around the place and in-place forces them to second guess themselves, hard to explain exactly what I mean so I'll see if I can show you what I'm talking about if I can record a match with him tomorrow. Bear in mind if you're not careful you'll get Dsmashed or grabbed or even dash attacked when doing this if it's not purposeful. Going for dash grabs from any distance is a very bad idea in general (but not always) because of the end lag on it, he'll just roll then run up and Fthrow to upB you. If he's running at you, you actually have a few good options;
Jab: If timed right it should beat his dash attack or dash grab, and if he rolls you can still always act on that and punish. Reversed downB is good if he rolls behind you (but beware if they shield the 1st hit they can roll away before the 2nd hit), and dash grab or dash attack will catch them for sure if they opt to roll back.
SH Nair: This move is amazing since you can retreat or advance so far with it and keeps it up, so if they're spamming rolls you can catch them with this. It's a good idea to mix it up with some ground options though since you might get Usmashed if you just keep doing it over and over.
Dash dancing: Good mindgame that can throw them out, only do it for like half a second or so before acting though.
Dashing away then back with dash attack or dash grab is really good too.
Wall of text, I'm not very good at condensing text just yet. =_=;
Things to look out for are his dash attack into upB and his dash attack in general, his rolls, and dash grabs. He is very hard to punish since his smashes have practically no lag so he can just shield or roll away instantly, so your only real option is getting very good at reading and anticipating those rolls ahead of time...though he can sort of spam them back and forth and mix it up with how fast it is so getting the read is way easier said than done. >_> Idk if it's reliable or not but I actually really like egg roll in this MU since it's quick enough to punish rolls and jumping to the ledge with it and breaking out lets you get back to safety. I also find mixing up my movement and dashing back and forth around the place and in-place forces them to second guess themselves, hard to explain exactly what I mean so I'll see if I can show you what I'm talking about if I can record a match with him tomorrow. Bear in mind if you're not careful you'll get Dsmashed or grabbed or even dash attacked when doing this if it's not purposeful. Going for dash grabs from any distance is a very bad idea in general (but not always) because of the end lag on it, he'll just roll then run up and Fthrow to upB you. If he's running at you, you actually have a few good options;
Jab: If timed right it should beat his dash attack or dash grab, and if he rolls you can still always act on that and punish. Reversed downB is good if he rolls behind you (but beware if they shield the 1st hit they can roll away before the 2nd hit), and dash grab or dash attack will catch them for sure if they opt to roll back.
SH Nair: This move is amazing since you can retreat or advance so far with it and keeps it up, so if they're spamming rolls you can catch them with this. It's a good idea to mix it up with some ground options though since you might get Usmashed if you just keep doing it over and over.
Dash dancing: Good mindgame that can throw them out, only do it for like half a second or so before acting though.
Dashing away then back with dash attack or dash grab is really good too.
Wall of text, I'm not very good at condensing text just yet. =_=;
ividal
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2014
- Messages
- 51
Thanks for the tips, it is hard to react like you said, but i didnt consider using egg roll, also i should practice my SH nair so i do it more, hope you can get that match recorded so i can get an idea.
Again thx for the info
Chrisgopher
Smash Cadet
I haven't had much luck with the Egg Roll since if you're not starting out on flat ground, it takes forever to get going. Also, I'm pretty sure meta Knight's tornado can cancel out the Egg roll even at top speed. I usually reserve the Egg Roll as a wild card when they may not expect it. I rarely see other Yoshi players use it.
Lukingordex
No Custom Titles Allowed
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2012
- Messages
- 3,056
- Switch FC
- SW-6444-7862-9014
The MK MU is... weird, not a bad one, but a weird one.
I have some personal thoughs on it but I really can't describe what exaclty they are lol
I have some personal thoughs on it but I really can't describe what exaclty they are lol
ReturningFall
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2015
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- 126
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- RecurringN
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- 1934-0989-6824
Don't forget we can turn around in egg roll, it can set up some interesting mindgames on unwitting opponents.
Not really sure if it's a good option since you lose priority as you turn around and are not fast enough that a smart opponent can't refocus and respond, but some people will throw out some punishable attacks or grabs on seeing your approach and you can punish accordingly. Watch out for your opponents reaction if you plan to spam.
Not really sure if it's a good option since you lose priority as you turn around and are not fast enough that a smart opponent can't refocus and respond, but some people will throw out some punishable attacks or grabs on seeing your approach and you can punish accordingly. Watch out for your opponents reaction if you plan to spam.
Nikes
Smash Lord
The MK player didn't go to the thursday meet I mentioned and he went Diddy in the friday night tournament but I was able to get a few matches recorded last night at a meet with his MK, not very good play on my end but I'll upload them soon anyhow.
YoHeKing
Smash Master
Well for one thing nair or up air combo breaking you should not do. Just remember though if you find a meta knight starting to edge guard you or your edge guarding a MK you can use fair as much as you want. None of his aerials can get through the hitbox. I dont find eggs usefull but idk. I always spam fair against them but not directly to them as they will punish!!! But if you see a metaknight approaching you from below your best option is to retreat.
warionumbah2
Smash Master
That's a bad idea since Drill Rush beats all of Yoshi's aerials and can stage spike. MKs Bair comes out faster than Yoshi''s Fair so MK can effectively edgeguard Yoshi while Yoshi has to constantly gamble when he decides to go off stage since that can end his stock.
YoHeKing
Smash Master
Im talking about when your at the right spacing. Its easy to react to meta knights drill and yoshis moves can go through it anyways. I did forget to mention not to attack him if your 2nd jump is gone. But yoshis fair you dont just throw out without spacing. Metaknight just cant get through the hitbox fast enough. Approaching him to edgeguard while hes far away isnt bright. I need to be more specific haha!
warionumbah2
Smash Master
Its easy to react to Drill yes but Yoshi can't do anything about it other than throw an egg and hope it hits, its a guranteed safe option to snap the ledge and Yoshi's moves go through it? Which one?
If you're going in with a Fair its easily telegraphed MK has multiple jumps and a teleporting down b, its best if Yoshi pressures MK on stage with eggs instead of putting himself in a disadvantage situation.
Fair requires spacing yes but the start up on that move is pretty bad compared to a disjointed Bair that comes out on frame 7, even so Yoshi is in disadvantageous situation for being near the ledge in the first place since MK covers all get up options making sure Yoshi doesn't get away without taking around 15% or more.
Yoshi needs to find other means in sealing K.O's because edgeguarding isn't one of them in this MU.
YoHeKing
Smash Master
Do you main meta knight? I dont agree with all off this because yoshis fair is pretty fast with 2x the range then MK. Would love to get some battles in.
Chrisgopher
Smash Cadet
I've gottta disagree with you on the head dunk > drill run. The drill run is definitely faster to start, even though it may not be by much. Plus, take into consideration the strikes themselves. The head dunk starts at 12 o'clock and takes time to wind down to 6, while the drill run immediately starts punishing towards the side after the charge-up. Your best bet is to either neutral air as MK is winding up the drill run, or air dodge as he starts a-twisting. Range is only a small part of the equasion - by the time you notice the drill run, you don't have the time to start a forward air counter unless you have spidey-sense or some ****.
I agree here. I've watched a MK player that has trained to slay yoshis and in most of the edge-guarding exchanges, meta knight comes out on top. If Yoshi gets a good forward air dunk from a bit above or gets an up-air in then that's about it. All in all, meta knight makes the edge his ***** - his multiple jumps mean he can hang out on the edge as long as needed and recover too.
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CelestialMarauder~
Smash Ace
Do any of you guys use Dair? If he's gonna drill rush you, you'll either do a quick trade or you'll win as long as you know when to start it up. Some of you are overestimating drill rush, some of you are undersestimating it and there's just a lot of theory craft going in every direction. Why is everyone so fixated on drill rush though? Eggs beat it out.
Chrisgopher
Smash Cadet
True. What we really have to fear are the tornado and shuttle loop. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
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CelestialMarauder~
Smash Ace
Personally im not even kind of afraid of nado anymore. Just shield it. Shuttle loop is kinda scary though
Chrisgopher
Smash Cadet
I'm afraid of tornados since I'm from the midwest. Also my reaction time on them isn't good enough yet.
CelestialMarauder~
Smash Ace
Seriously if you see it comming your way just hold shield. They're super punishable out of shield this game
YoHeKing
Smash Master
Maybe its just my reaction time lmao. I react really fast and read pretty good. Other then that though.
I disagree with the edgeguarding part... theres no way to trully edgaurd a good yoshi with a controllable projectile and a 2nd jump with armor and can be combined with air dodges. Also once the head dunk starts it keeps going even if yoshi gets hit.
I disagree with the edgeguarding part... theres no way to trully edgaurd a good yoshi with a controllable projectile and a 2nd jump with armor and can be combined with air dodges. Also once the head dunk starts it keeps going even if yoshi gets hit.
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I believe the previous conversation of drill rush was with yoshi trying to return to the ledge. In which case the Yoshi cannot air dodge it (drill is too slow), and thus is forced to counter attack. Drill rush spiking is most effective when opponents don't' recover high, thus yoshi's egg toss would be of little help as MK would be behind yoshi (with yoshi being in between the stage and MK). In this scenario meta knight has all the freedom to choose his angle and direction (or whether to actually commit to a drill rush spike), while the yoshi has a very predictable path to recovery. Its not impossible for the yoshi, but the situation is definitely puts yoshi in a trouble spot.
Otherwise the standard drill rush won't be used very frequently when in the neutral as the move is slow and does low damage with little combo utility.
CelestialMarauder~
Smash Ace
uhhhhh, when would that situation ever have even the chance of happening? Why would he be on the other side of us if we were recovering? Why can't we just double jump back on stage to avoid that super laggy drill rush? Do we not have our double jump? If we didn't why didn't he just do something else I'm sure anything would be more effective than going to the other side of us and then drill rushing to the stage.
Im confused are we trying to edge guard him and he's drill rushing to the stage?
When would it happen? When yoshi isn't recovering high back onto the stage, thus aiming for the ledge or if yoshi is attempting to go off stage to gimp MK.
Obviously MK has other options (possible better options if Mk is the one jumping off to gimp), but the previous convo was mentioning drill rush stage spiking and not drill rush in the neutral, that was the main point which I was trying to clarify, as drill rush in the neutral won't be happening frequently if at all.
To drill rush stage spike, MK has to have the opponent in between him and the stage, MK drills into the stage, opponents go flying down and MK bounces up. Its one of the options available to mk on V shaped stages.
It isn't that much different than yoshi (or MK) doing bair into a low recovering opponent to stage spike them (opponent is in between yoshi and stage).
edit:
Also if mk whiffs and the opponent reaches the ledge first mk's drill will bounce him off the side and onto the ledge leading to a ledge trump.
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CelestialMarauder~
Smash Ace
No i get that it's an option i just feel like its an irrelevant option because everything else he can do is better than that, and if there is no one inbetween us and the stage, we will DJAD back on for free. I don't get why we were trying to discuss ways to beat that when we could just ignore it all together
The convo started when YoHeKing was discussing edge guarding, which warionumbah followed up on the priority of moves. I do grant it that drill rush stage spiking is situational, especially in higher level play, I wouldn't call it irrelevant though. Again I was just clarifying that because it looked like you were discussing drill rush in the neutral which you are right in that drill rush in the neutral is no threat at all.
If a double jump could be baited out of yoshi sooner or if MK threw out an aerial in an attempt to gimp and missed, this automatically places yoshi in between the the stage and pending on position MK's next best offensive option before resetting to the neutral is either shuttle loop (SL) or drill rush stage spike. Since most higher levels of play don't have players going too deep for gimps, this is why its rather rare.
YoHeKing
Smash Master
Yoshi dosnt recovor low in the first place. Drill rush dosnt go through his 2nd armor and yoshi shouldnt edgaurd MK unless hes diagonally from the cliff. Its kinda easy to react to a drill rush in the first place and would be easy to tech. MK cant really get through eggs if he trys to edguard. 90% of the time iI dont even need the 2nd jump. The eggs can float yoshi basiclly all the way from the blastzone to the cliff. After hitting the MK with an egg thats when you most lilly can do true or strings with his 2nd jump.
If yoshi dodge cancels his 2nd jump he basiclly goes max jump and is invincible all the way up. Edgaurding isnt easy for MK against yoshi. There both possible of course but MK and Yoshi wont be able to edguard each other. Both of them can try and most likly be safe if they are good and know what there doing.
If yoshi dodge cancels his 2nd jump he basiclly goes max jump and is invincible all the way up. Edgaurding isnt easy for MK against yoshi. There both possible of course but MK and Yoshi wont be able to edguard each other. Both of them can try and most likly be safe if they are good and know what there doing.
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I also realize that I didn't give too much MU help here, I play both MK and Yoshi (yoshi is a secondary now though). I also must admit while I play both I don't fight the other as often as I should while playing them. So take this with a grain of salt.
For those yoshi's out there that need help with the MU, here is just some basic general advice I give to friends or fellow board members.
First MK has to approach yoshi and MK has limited approaching options. His two main approach options are dash grab and dash attack, both of which are absolutely phenomenal and both are also initiated out of the same movement option. What makes these two moves great though is that in the game of rock paper scissors, meta knight has an approach option to beat out shields (using dash grab) or short range grabs (using dash attack), the range and speed of these moves are great as well. The third and lesser approach option MK has is rising dair. In most situations, most of MK's aerials and specials are unsafe on shield.
This means that MK relies on baiting slightly more than other characters since his footsies is a little bit below average. What this translates to in MK's game play is that he goes from cold to hot really fast, he opens you up then he goes through his bread and butter combo. His bread and butter combo is an initiator (grab or dash attack) which tosses you in the air, Stacking damage if possible from Uairs, and a shuttle loop finisher. This is the core of MK's gameplay along with tornado which he relies on for damage building outside of the bread and butter combo. Tornado can punish bad habits hard (like bad rolls and dashes) so make sure to recognize those habits and reframe from repeating them.
So the crux to fighting meta knight is to keep him in his cold state since MK is combo centric and not footsie centric, for yoshi mains this translates to being patient. Don't throw out attacks aimlessly, keep your aggression in check with hit confirms, zone with eggs. Essentially let MK be the one to make the mistakes, not you.
Both of MK's main approach options can also be stopped with tether grabs of appropriate length. If any of yoshi's attacks clank with MK's, know that MK is missing traditional fast jabs most other characters have so you can easily punish with your own jabs if within range.
Last and not least, if you see me online, make sure to not implement any of these against me.
For those yoshi's out there that need help with the MU, here is just some basic general advice I give to friends or fellow board members.
First MK has to approach yoshi and MK has limited approaching options. His two main approach options are dash grab and dash attack, both of which are absolutely phenomenal and both are also initiated out of the same movement option. What makes these two moves great though is that in the game of rock paper scissors, meta knight has an approach option to beat out shields (using dash grab) or short range grabs (using dash attack), the range and speed of these moves are great as well. The third and lesser approach option MK has is rising dair. In most situations, most of MK's aerials and specials are unsafe on shield.
This means that MK relies on baiting slightly more than other characters since his footsies is a little bit below average. What this translates to in MK's game play is that he goes from cold to hot really fast, he opens you up then he goes through his bread and butter combo. His bread and butter combo is an initiator (grab or dash attack) which tosses you in the air, Stacking damage if possible from Uairs, and a shuttle loop finisher. This is the core of MK's gameplay along with tornado which he relies on for damage building outside of the bread and butter combo. Tornado can punish bad habits hard (like bad rolls and dashes) so make sure to recognize those habits and reframe from repeating them.
So the crux to fighting meta knight is to keep him in his cold state since MK is combo centric and not footsie centric, for yoshi mains this translates to being patient. Don't throw out attacks aimlessly, keep your aggression in check with hit confirms, zone with eggs. Essentially let MK be the one to make the mistakes, not you.
Both of MK's main approach options can also be stopped with tether grabs of appropriate length. If any of yoshi's attacks clank with MK's, know that MK is missing traditional fast jabs most other characters have so you can easily punish with your own jabs if within range.
Last and not least, if you see me online, make sure to not implement any of these against me.
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YoHeKing
Smash Master
nair is safe on shield I think. It only has 4 frames of lag and if you start it up it should only be 5 frames and 1 frame of a hit. So even if MK perfrct sheild his grabs would have to be faster then 4 frames.
WhiteMageBD
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2015
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- 188
- NNID
- wmiller2533
I thought you can jump out of mk uair strings because of super armor 2nd jump.
Lukingordex
No Custom Titles Allowed
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2012
- Messages
- 3,056
- Switch FC
- SW-6444-7862-9014
Nikes
Smash Lord
EVERY. TIME. MK is so dumb to fight, especially when he has you at his golden % between 20-30% where he can do that the easiest.
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Nikes
Smash Lord
Little bit of a bump, but what do we actually do to fight MK in general, like do we spend more time hovering in the air or do we play a close quarter combat game with him? I really just struggle with the MU since we can't get any reliable hits like we would on a bigger character, and his dash attack into Uair chain is really threatening, especially when the MK mixes up his direction he's using it in before the upB, so it feels like a guessing game where you have to get lucky.