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[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

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Thirdkoopa

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Sakurai doesn't ignore sales charts Koopa. The more popular (ie better selling) series get more characters, and the characters from the series are the more popular ones. There are some contradictions, but that doesn't change things as a whole. =/
Or what seems to also be happening is the Popular series get complete quicker then the less popular series that have viable supporting characters possibly get there supporting characters along with other adds.

You seem to think it has a gigantic influence. Sure, he may actually take a gander at them, but it's not the god of everything. Furthermore, I've explained my huge reasoning behind it: It's an awful way to build up a roster on that basis alone.

edit: Build up on which series gets there supporting characters first? Sure. Adding them for the sake of just being from that series? No. (However Toad and Bowser Jr wouldn't be only for that, so they get some nods to me still being neutral)
 

Pieman0920

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The completion thing is moronic though. Its just that characters of less popularity have to be brought into the game as the more popular characters are exausted. It makes the illusion that each series it going into a "balanced" state, but that's just a very terrible hypothesis. Even if you were to go by that though, you'd have to understand that the popularity there is determining who is getting in, and due to popularity, what "balances" a series will keep expanding as the series gets new additions to its cast.

It really makes zero sense to not pay attention to what fans would like and just put in unpopular and uneeded characters from other series just because they were important there. That's why the whole idea is like the "we need more villains" or "we need more females" because it defines the things by what's important in a series, instead of what's important as a whole.

And I just frigging said that there are contradictions to it, so its not the only thing that's going on when deciding the roster, but it is clearly one of the bigger things going alone there (along with the desire to promote sales with better advertising, which is the case for characters such as Ike, Lucario, and Lucas)
 

ToiseOfChoice

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Sakurai doesn't ignore sales charts Koopa. The more popular (ie better selling) series get more characters, and the characters from the series are the more popular ones. There are some contradictions, but that doesn't change things as a whole. =/
Compare series totals:

Super Mario Bros. --- 210+ million
Pokemon ------------- 186+ million
Legend of Zelda ------ 57+ million
Donkey Kong ---------- 50+ million
Kirby ---------------- 30+ million
Yoshi ---------------- 21+ million
Wario Land/WarioWare - 20+ million
Metroid -------------- 14+ million
Star Fox ------------- 10+ million
F-Zero ---------------- 8+ million
Fire Emblem ----------- 6+ million
Mother/EarthBound ----- 2+ million



Or by highest selling game:

Super Mario Bros. [NES] ------------------- 40.24
Pokemon Red/Blue/Green [GB] --------------- 31.37
Donkey Kong Country [SNES] ----------------- 9.30
Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time [N64] ----- 7.60
Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3 [GB] -------- 5.19
Kirby's Dream Land [GB] -------------------- 5.13
Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island [SNES] - 4.12
Star Fox 64 [N64] -------------------------- 4.03
F-Zero [SNES] ------------------------------ 2.85
Metroid Prime [GCN] ------------------------ 2.83
EarthBound [SNES] -------------------------- 0.92
Fire Emblem: Mystery of the Emblem [SNES] -- 0.70



And then the total number of characters per series (counting Young/Toon Link as one):

Pokemon -------------- 8 [9 individuals]
Super Mario Bros. ---- 5
Legend of Zelda ------ 5 [4 individuals]
Star Fox ------------- 3
Fire Emblem ---------- 3
Kirby ---------------- 3
Donkey Kong ---------- 2
Mother/EarthBound ---- 2
Metroid -------------- 2 [1 individual]
Yoshi ---------------- 1
F-Zero --------------- 1
Wario Land/WarioWare - 1



Way more than "some" contradictions here.

Should also mention that it's apparent Sakurai has no qualms with a relatively unknown character if he deems them "likable" enough. That should've been obvious when we got stuff like Ness and Marth over Wario and Dedede (among others).
 

Thirdkoopa

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The completion thing is moronic though. Its just that characters of less popularity have to be brought into the game as the more popular characters are exausted. It makes the illusion that each series it going into a "balanced" state, but that's just a very terrible hypothesis. Even if you were to go by that though, you'd have to understand that the popularity there is determining who is getting in, and due to popularity, what "balances" a series will keep expanding as the series gets new additions to its cast.
Here we go again...

Anyways, to answer that: See? Less popular supporting characters. It's clearly also a factor.

And you still have no proof that he actually uses sales as a huge determining factor. Find me a quote or something and then I'll start to side with you more, until then, no. At least I've shown that sakurai keeps going into more and more series and yet everyone is absolutely fine with it.

It really makes zero sense to not pay attention to what fans would like
We're discussing two characters with only a good ammount of fan request. Ignoring what his fans would like wouldn't be doing that. He didn't add a new Mario character to Brawl, yet there weren't huge complaints, were there? There's also Krystal, Claus, K. Rool, Samurai Goroh, Ridley, Isaac, Little Mac, Roy, Mewtwo...

...You want me to go on about fan pleasers? :U You get the point. We're arguing Mario supporting characters, not ignoring his fanbase. The fanbase still seems fine with all sorts of supporting characters as shown.

edit:
Pieman equips spike
Toise uses Ultra Hammer
TK uses shell toss
this games winner is paper mario and koops toise and tk with logic.
 

ScoobyCafe

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Another argument brewing?



Wait, it's over already? Aww :(

Actually you know, Wolf's moveset is pretty good. It's just so hard and tricky to be actually good with. I'm a fan of his moveset yet I can't get it right for jack :laugh: Regardless, the point is that they CAN Make a moveset.
Am I seriously the only one who dislikes Wolf's moveset? Not just his moveset, but his whole persona aggravates me, considering how he's infinitely more appealing in Assault.

Plus the weapons in that game? Dude, Wolf with gattling guns? Wolf with a sniper rifle? I was hoping he'd be kinda like Yugo in Bloody Roar with weapons, but nope, we get Tennessee Wolf with claws. Of course.

I think the reason we all view Brawl as so easy to see is because most of them were at a forum who speculated, thus being able to narrow choices down.

As for Left-Fielders: I'm fine with them as long as they're important or add something. Like we may already have Mario, but Paper Mario could be added to help Mario RPG's and a unique moveset, so It's not a complete loss or anything like that.
Pretty sure there was a fair amount of speculation for Melee, and I'm sure none of us anticipated some of the characters who got picked. I miss that feeling. :(

And I don't think left-fielders necessarily have to be important so long as they add something. Falco wasn't necessarily important back then, but he definitely made Melee a bit more interesting. Currently looking at Rosalina as a possible left-fielder.

But yeah. I have a feeling I'll know every character added to Smash 4 at this rate. :laugh:
I'm afraid to say that I might know it as well. I hope I don't. :(
 

Pieman0920

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Compare series totals:

Toise's post....cutting out charts for sake of space....

Way more than "some" contradictions here.

Should also mention that it's apparent Sakurai has no qualms with a relatively unknown character if he deems them "likable" enough. That should've been obvious when we got stuff like Ness and Marth over Wario and Dedede (among others).
They still correlate, especially when you count the Mario spinoffs with the Mario series itself. And as I said, its not the only thing, but the main thing. The highest selling series are still getting the most characters, and the other series on there that have multiple characters are still much higher selling than the series that have nothing at all. (Sans Wii ___ games, but I don't think I need to really go into that)

Here we go again...

Anyways, to answer that: See? Less popular supporting characters. It's clearly also a factor.

And you still have no proof that he actually uses sales as a huge determining factor. Find me a quote or something and then I'll start to side with you more, until then, no. At least I've shown that sakurai keeps going into more and more series and yet everyone is absolutely fine with it.
The proof is who is included and how much is included from each series. Unpopular (and unknown series) don't get characters at all. Series that are less popular generally don't get as many characters, while series that are more popular get more characters. How is this hard to see? And what you've shown is exactly what I've shown, except you're interpreting it that every series needs to get X-amount of characters, while my theory is just that X-amount of characters are added due to factor Y. Really we're both just making hypothesis that can't really be proven.


We're discussing two characters with only a good ammount of fan request. Ignoring what his fans would like wouldn't be doing that. He didn't add a new Mario character to Brawl, yet there weren't huge complaints, were there? There's also Krystal, Claus, K. Rool, Samurai Goroh, Ridley, Isaac, Little Mac, Roy, Mewtwo...

...You want me to go on about fan pleasers? :U You get the point. We're arguing Mario supporting characters, not ignoring his fanbase. The fanbase still seems fine with all sorts of supporting characters as shown.
He did add a Mario character in Wario, though since Wario is so popular he expanded out into his own series. There probably would have been huge complaints if he was out.

And sorry that I cut into your debate there, but I'm not really trying to bring up anything regarding the Mario series real expansion (which I've already given my opinions long before) but rather just interjecting on the statement that sales mean nothing.
 

Thirdkoopa

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Another argument brewing?



Wait, it's over already? Aww :(
My Koops/Paper Mario part was a joke since I've been playing it so much. It's brewing up. Feel free to join in.

Am I seriously the only one who dislikes Wolf's moveset? Not just his moveset, but his whole persona aggravates me, considering how he's infinitely more appealing in Assault.

Plus the weapons in that game? Dude, Wolf with gattling guns? Wolf with a sniper rifle? I was hoping he'd be kinda like Yugo in Bloody Roar with weapons, but nope, we get Tennessee Wolf with claws. Of course.
This games winner is...TENNESEE WOLF. SEE I COME FROM TENEESEE HAR HAR /redneck wolf voice.

I hate how you got images stuck into his head. Also I agree his design in Brawl stinks. His moveset may differ from the cast but the design of his character...ARG COMMAND RAGE.

Pretty sure there was a fair amount of speculation for Melee, and I'm sure none of us anticipated some of the characters who got picked. I miss that feeling. :(
You know, back then in melee, outside of Fox, nobody really stood out that much. Melee's was pretty left field. Brawl was really predictable for me. Smash 4 may shape up to be the same way.

I however do think they should add something in there importance, or you'll get "LOL REMOVE THIS CHARACTER" Or "LOL CLONES" I think Paper Mario would make a good Left-Fielder since If he had, say my moveset, nobody could really hate the idea of him that much.

but the main thing.
-You have no proof behind this.
-Sakurai has never said anything about it, or so on, his dev team.
-Each roster disproves you further and further.
-It's still not ignoring people.

And yet outside of pretty sales numbers that don't even have much, you haven't said much about the characters themselves. So I don't know If you're trying to argue the Mario Supporting characters or you just love thinking Toise's and My point of views are flawed because It's not yours yet It's what is currently happening.
 

Big-Cat

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10$ Says I'm the only person who actually wanted Wolf and Krystal for there actual characters rather than being unique :laugh:
Can I have that ten dollars now? I was neutral on Wolf, but I don't like Krystal solely for her moveset. I like her as a character as well.

Anyway, I like characters that come out of nowhere. That's one of the things that keeps me hoping for Nook and Kumatora. It spices up an otherwise predictable roster.
 

Pieman0920

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-You have no proof behind this.
-Sakurai has never said anything about it, or so on, his dev team.
-Each roster disproves you further and further.
-It's still not ignoring people.

And yet outside of pretty sales numbers that don't even have much, you haven't said much about the characters themselves. So I don't know If you're trying to argue the Mario Supporting characters or you just love thinking Toise's and My point of views are flawed because It's not yours yet It's what is currently happening.
Just a head ups in case you didn't notice, but I edited my previous post to give you a responce. :V

And you have no real proof on your thing but the general data still shows that popular series get more. You have no proof though that it means what you're saying rather than what I'm saying though. Common sense dictates though that expansion in series is for the sake of the fans not some weird sense of balance.

I don't think I need to get into the characters themselves since they almost all explain themselves. And seriously stop getting to prissy about your views. Remember that they are just theory no matter what you do. Mine are theory too, but once you get all high and mighty about it you really are losing yourself. Your proof is the same thing that my proof is, but you're just interepreting it a different way, which I don't agree with. (And remember, Toise is just another poster like the rest of us, not some type of higher authority on the matter)
 

Thirdkoopa

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The proof is who is included and how much is included from each series. Unpopular (and unknown series) don't get characters at all. Series that are less popular generally don't get as many characters, while series that are more popular get more characters. How is this hard to see? And what you've shown is exactly what I've shown, except you're interpreting it that every series needs to get X-amount of characters, while my theory is just that X-amount of characters are added due to factor Y. Really we're both just making hypothesis that can't really be proven.
It doesn't need X-Amount of characters. For example, there's no way Yoshi could par up to four with important characters along with Metroid as opposed to say, Fire Emblem, Star Fox, Mario, LoZ, etc.

Regardless: It can't be proven because it can't. Which is what I'm saying.

He did add a Mario character in Wario, though since Wario is so popular he expanded out into his own series. There probably would have been huge complaints if he was out.

And sorry that I cut into your debate there, but I'm not really trying to bring up anything regarding the Mario series real expansion (which I've already given my opinions long before) but rather just interjecting on the statement that sales mean nothing.
It's not really much of a debate. It's just turned into one but eh, whatever shakes up the thread.

And Sales may very well mean nothing to Sakurai. Ok, maybe it does to an extent, but in the grand scheme of things, It's very possible that it doesn't now.

And Wario =/= Bowser Jr/Toad. As you said: "Wario has his own series" 2 of them, actually.

Can I have that ten dollars now? I was neutral on Wolf, but I don't like Krystal solely for her moveset. I like her as a character as well.
WOO. I actually personally wanted to see Wolf more than Krystal, but since I'm a huge fan of the series and can see why Krystal should have a spot, I'm totally fine with it.

I just surely hope she doesn't end out a clone or at least not much of one. While her staff is cool, has anyone ever made a moveset without it?

edit:

Common sense dictates though that expansion in series is for the sake of the fans
Which each series has a lot of fan request "For there fans" (asides from Kirby). Common sense also dictates it's for the importance of the Characters, which to be personally honest, Bowser Jr and Toad are debateable to that. Furthermore, they do have characters on par to there request. There request isn't abnormal unlike Sonic, so you CAN Keep them the same.

Seriously, I want to see any one of you attempt to deny the cute Isaac Kirby.

As for Toise: Toise however brings up clear proof asides from just his own opinions, which I hardly see from him anyways. He even stated that he thinks Pokey is more likely yet likes Claus more as a character, much like myself on the last part. Him and Fatmanonice aren't the super-god of characters, but they do think outside and are pretty logical. Not even that biased asides from FMOI's love for geno. I consider Cafe pretty logical too for thinking outside the box asides from just general discussion.

But I don't think of you badly or anything. Your stage ideas rule; It's just that I don't agree with everything you say on characters.
 

Big-Cat

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I can't picture anything without the staff because I've visualized her with it since 2002.
 

ToiseOfChoice

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They still correlate, especially when you count the Mario spinoffs with the Mario series itself. And as I said, its not the only thing, but the main thing. The highest selling series are still getting the most characters, and the other series on there that have multiple characters are still much higher selling than the series that have nothing at all. (Sans Wii ___ games, but I don't think I need to really go into that)
Mario, Pokemon, Zelda, and Kirby correlate. The rest do not. That means out of twelve series, eight of them do not match up to sales.

If the roster DID work that way, by Brawl we'd have already gotten...

- Dixie Kong
- King K. Rool
- Kamek*
- Mona and/or Captain Syrup
- Ridley**
- Samurai Goroh

and we'd never have gotten...

- Wolf
- Roy
- Ike***
- Lucas***

* Yoshi is the only Mario spinoff that can be argued as "part of Mario," but even then it wouldn't matter since Mario and Pokemon can do anything they want with those numbers.
** Assuming Zero Suit Samus doesn't take his "slot."
*** Unless they'd replace Ness and Marth.



I could swear I had this discussion with you before, something to the effect of "you're ignoring how 'lesser' series have been managing more characters than 'bigger' ones since 64." EarthBound, Star Fox, and Fire Emblem have always been taking a dump over the whole slot-earning theory.


@Kuma: You better be ready to share that $10 with a lot of people.
 

Thirdkoopa

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No! This is mine! MINE!
ToiseOfChoice WOO THE GRAVEYARD OF THIS THREAD said:
- Everyone agrees that Mac is extremely likely, possibly the most likely newcomer ($5 says he's in the SSB4 debut trailer). The guy seriously has nothing against his chances of making it in.
Smash 4: The Official Joke Betting Game! Watch Kuma get hungry for cash.

Speaking of which another topic: SSB4 debut trailer gogogo. To start off, Isaac would be an awesome character to show off in it.
 

Pieman0920

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Trying to quote everything would a nightmare. :V

@Toise

Things overall still correlate very well, though there are obviously other factors involved here, which I've already admited to. There isn't one ruling factor here, but sales/popularity is clearly one of, if not the biggest thing there. Still for certain series such as say F-Zero and Metroid, there's no way around having only around one character because the series themselves are set up that way. (F-Zero has loads of characters, but outside of visual designs, there's really nothing to go off of. Metroid has the problem of Samus consistently killing off every side character she meets) There's also the factor of characters who are added in because they could help increase sales by being in the much more mainstream series that Smash is (Lucas, Lucario, and Ike) As I've said before, the one thing that really never made sense to me was Wolf, who I really can't explain other than admitting that at times Sakurai does like screwing with people's expectations. Still that one thing doesn't change the whole thing.


And I thought our dicussion before was over if Roy would return (which got into what qualified a character to be the next representative of their series) and if Jody Summer was important in F-Zero (which was based around this "completion" thing that Koopa seems to love so much, which I can only assume he pushes because its the only thing that makes sense for adding in two extra Earthbound characters)

Also I'd while I won't deny that Wario's series have expanded, and WW has very little to do with Mario, he's still a Mario character even if he's not with the Mario series....if that makes any sense. Sort of like how Tingle is still a LoZ character even if he is said to have his own series.

@Koopa

Neither of your theories can be proven unless Sakurai comes in here and says that one of is right...or that both of us are wrong. Still its not good to just assume that my beliefs were created because I disagree with Toise and you. That's just really dumb.

Look above on my stance on Wario. He's representing a different series now, but he's stil best known as a Mario character, so if you're really counting Smash as a series that takes in all of Nintendo's history, then Wario is still part of the Mario series. (And I think that his overalls alt costume is proof that Sakurai remembers that)

Toise brought data there, which can be interpreted either way. And I'm glad Toise thinks that Porky is the more likley Mother character, since that really makes sense...heck, that's what I've been saying for awhile too. (Even though I don't think Porky will make it in, doesn't mean I don't think he makes more sense than say Claus)
 

Thirdkoopa

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@Koopa

Neither of your theories can be proven unless Sakurai comes in here and says that one of is right...or that both of us are wrong. Still its not good to just assume that my beliefs were created because I disagree with Toise and you. That's just really dumb.

Look above on my stance on Wario. He's representing a different series now, but he's stil best known as a Mario character, so if you're really counting Smash as a series that takes in all of Nintendo's history, then Wario is still part of the Mario series. (And I think that his overalls alt costume is proof that Sakurai remembers that)

Toise brought data there, which can be interpreted either way. And I'm glad Toise thinks that Porky is the more likley Mother character, since that really makes sense...heck, that's what I've been saying for awhile too. (Even though I don't think Porky will make it in, doesn't mean I don't think he makes more sense than say Claus)
Just to clarify: I love the idea of other smaller series being complete because it gives players a general idea of the series. Why the hell do we have 530 trophies when Mother is still confusing to It's character origins? Heck, why are the only Mother and DK Characters Monkies and kids who use PK Thunder up there ***? It gives a great chance for variety to Nintendo's bigger franchises, and furthermore, fans do seem to be fine with it as support is all over the place. It's kinda awkward to explain my true stance on it, so we'll just leave it at that.

10 Bu...Ok, less Smash 4 casino thread. Anyways: I'm saying we need to think outside the box in theories too much. Even with facts and much info Toise and I have brought to the table, you still happen to think that Sales is a "God" Factor. Mine could very well not be, but we have no indication that says sales = god factor. Influenced? Yes. God Factor? Eh...

The point is that Wario =/= Those other supporting characters. While his origins are very well from Mario, he was put in for the fact that he has games outside of those that have sold very well. I guess It's a 3 for 1 special. Also don't forget Wario Land.

How so? Interpreted either way when he (Along with FMOI) Have hardly shown bias? He's debated tingle yet likes Tingle. He's debated Toad with me yet has a Toad plushie. He's said that he thinks Pokey should be in before Claus, yet he also likes Claus more. FMOI Even gave a full fledged argument for tingle when he doesn't even like the character.

Sure, the info may not point to something 100% Correct, but It's sure more logical than "THIS SERIES DESERVES MORE CHARACTERS" Or "THIS CHARACTER SHOULD GET IN BECAUSE I LIKE IT MORE" Or "SALES CHARTS AHOY!" Or "FEMALES AND VILLIANS AND SO ON" Or...

Yeah; I don't need to go on.
 

ToiseOfChoice

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I'm trying not to quote jenga but I can't help it, so maybe just this once. Hoping Koops doesn't outjenga me at any point.

Things overall still correlate very well, though there are obviously other factors involved here, which I've already admited to. There isn't one ruling factor here, but sales/popularity is clearly one of, if not the biggest thing there.
4 out of 12 counts as "very well?"

And it still wouldn't justify why someone like Wario or King Dedede (who have always been very popular) took so long to be playable over the likes of Ness and Marth (who were pretty much made through Smash).


Still for certain series such as say F-Zero and Metroid, there's no way around having only around one character because the series themselves are set up that way. (F-Zero has loads of characters, but outside of visual designs, there's really nothing to go off of. Metroid has the problem of Samus consistently killing off every side character she meets)
Except F-Zero and Metroid have Goroh and Ridley at the very least, even by your interpretations of those two series. Even Yoshi has Kamek if you felt like ignoring all the other Mario characters in Yoshi's Island.


There's also the factor of characters who are added in because they could help increase sales by being in the much more mainstream series that Smash is (Lucas, Lucario, and Ike) As I've said before, the one thing that really never made sense to me was Wolf, who I really can't explain other than admitting that at times Sakurai does like screwing with people's expectations. Still that one thing doesn't change the whole thing.
Those three are from evolving series, so you get a free pass.

And another free pass for Wolf, since he manages to contradict Sakurai's own words.


And I thought our dicussion before was over if Roy would return (which got into what qualified a character to be the next representative of their series) and if Jody Summer was important in F-Zero (which was based around this "completion" thing that Koopa seems to love so much, which I can only assume he pushes because its the only thing that makes sense for adding in two extra Earthbound characters)
No no, it was before Roy and Jody, it was like one of my first posts. I think it was about how you didn't think DK should get K. Rool or Dixie and I was like "look at Star Fox." It was the first big sales post I made here. Pretty sure I jumped into a conversation you had with someone else.


Also I'd while I won't deny that Wario's series have expanded, and WW has very little to do with Mario, he's still a Mario character even if he's not with the Mario series....if that makes any sense. Sort of like how Tingle is still a LoZ character even if he is said to have his own series.
It's the fact that Wario (and DK while we're at it) have clearly successfully branched off from Mario, even ignoring the games that aren't platformers. There's no Mario or Bowser or Mushrooms or Goombas or any of that in Wario Land or DKC. Compare that with Yoshi, where... well, you know.

Basically it's a matter of how divorced the content is, even if Wario and DK still pop in for sports and whatnot.


This is only 5 quotes, that's not too bad right?
Don't quote this line, no matter how tempting.


edit: gotta head out, so gonna have to throw this out now while I still have the chance:

In terms of his criteria for characters to be included in the game, Sakurai said that to merit inclusion, characters had to stand out, and do something that only that character can do. Additionally, new additions to the roster had to improve the balance of series representation -- you don't want half of the roster from the Mario series, or Zelda. The developer put an additional emphasis on individuality. "Clarifying the concept early on of what a character can do was very important," he said.
- Notes from Sakurai's GDC 08 presentation

To be honest Pieman, I can't even remember your character theory anymore because I keep getting all this evidence that says this one is pretty much correct. And I'm not saying that out of malice or some kind of internet snark, I honestly can't even comprehend how your theory is supposed to work anymore.
 

Dsull

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i bet Sakurai looks for forum threads like this for the next game's character designs. I bet we'll see toad/paper mario/krystal show up in SSB4 just because of the stir it caused in this thread lol. Isaac too, for that matter.

As for the whole DK thing branching from Mario, you got that backwards. the VERY first game Mario and DK appeared in was good ol' Donkey Kong. The reviews on that game from nintendo mentioned the guy in the red had didnt even have a name for awhile, and they were intending to focus on the monkey not the jumping guy in overalls. It backfired. Not sure how they intended to push the monkey when he was the bad guy tho.

And it still wouldn't justify why someone like Wario or King Dedede (who have always been well known) took so long to be playable over the likes of Ness and Marth (who were pretty much made through Smash)
Yea i didnt even know who either of those characters were till i started playing smash. EarthBound for the SNES was in america already i just never heard of it. Fire Emblem i found out was a Japan only series till recently and thats why i never heard of him. Actually i still havent found the specific game he comes from. I'm surprised they didnt put Lyn in there for the simple 2 facts:
1) she's the first main character of the series
2) she's a she, and Nintendo lacks she characters.
 

Pieman0920

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I don't have all the time in the world right now, so Koopa, I'll get back to you later on.

@Toise

For the most part yes, that is a fairly good correlation. While the middle tier of Nintendo series seem to have discrepencies in regards to their exact amount relative to each other, they are still cleraly in a middle tier of characters as opposed to the lower tier Nintendo series which generally don't have much of anything. Plus, I'd chalk the DK series as something that was intended to fit in there. If it wasn't for technical difficulties, it would have Dixie in there, and would have had three characters (still two slots though) and that would balance out things fine. Heck, the other series work there well too once you accept the fact that certain series like F-Zero and Metroid just don't have the characters in general, and Wario/Yoshi series are still pretty tied into Mario. (Though as I admit later on, Wario much less so)

And I actually didn't read you Wario/Dedede thing correctly before. I thought you were reffering to them being unpopular, which didn't make much sense to me. In any case, for Dedede we actually did get an explanation that Sakurai didn't want to seem like he was favoring his own characters back at around Melee, but decided not to worry about that with Brawl since he wasn't part of Nintendo any more. For Wario, I'm not quite sure. At the time he was still part of the Mario series of characters, and its possible he just got cut out because there were already two new Mario characters already in Melee (and Doc was just easier to put in)

As for Goroh and Ridley, we also have a explanation why Ridley wasn't in by Sakurai himself, which had to deal with the mechanics of him. Even so, both he and Goroh are still somewhat obscure, though Ridley less so. Goroh's direct disclusion though could just be another factor of him just not having any traditional skills to work off of at all. Remember Captain Falcon's inclusion in the first place was likely just a because he was given the moveset of those dragon-fighter-whatevers that were in the prototype version of Smash. Whle Goroh has other reasons for being the next F-zero character in line, the only real reason I think he has a significant chance is because they could just BS a Samurai moveset in there. As a character he is very underdeveloped, and if it wasn't for that moveset pottential, I'd say that it would be best to give a second racer style moveset to someone from the Excite-series.

And we first had a debate back in one of those DK ones? Its been so long since then. I still hate K.Rool, but I guess at this point there are a bit too many fans complaining for him to be in that I can't ignore that he has significant chances. Still Smash would be better off without the generic putz. :V

Back in the begining of the Wario series there were Goomba-esque things and they are still there in Shake it, but I get your point. I still think though that Wario's still considered a major character in the Mario series itself (Mario 64 for the DS had him as a playable character for instance) though he can equally be seen as a character from a different series. Thus despite the fact that he has his own series, the fact that he still was the next character in line for the Mario series, makes it so he sort of represents both, which as I said to Koopa, is reflected in his overalls look.

And I don't have a real character theory or even a character list. In my head I rank what makes sense for the new character of each series, and then I think of how the series should be represented. The bolded part of the quote is quite obvious in that if everything was determined by sales/popularity, we'd only have about three of four series with everything else getting nothing, but its still clear to me that the more popular series still do get more representation, be it characters, items, or stages, if they are more popular.
 

Thirdkoopa

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I'm trying not to quote jenga but I can't help it, so maybe just this once. Hoping Koops doesn't outjenga me at any point.
I won't. Well, at least not to your post.

Those three are from evolving series
The status of Earthbound is debateable, so 2.5.

I think it was about how you didn't think DK should get K. Rool or Dixie and I was like "look at Star Fox." It was the first big sales post I made here. Pretty sure I jumped into a conversation you had with someone else.
I remember this. Pieman was screaming "ITS ALL DEAD" And not even thinking about history in general that the two characters had. Entertaining as usual.

Basically it's a matter of how divorced the content is, even if Wario and DK still pop in for sports and whatnot.
Hey hey hey.
Bumpties are still cool.


In terms of his criteria for characters to be included in the game, Sakurai said that to merit inclusion, characters had to stand out, and do something that only that character can do. Additionally, new additions to the roster had to improve the balance of series representation -- you don't want half of the roster from the Mario series, or Zelda. The developer put an additional emphasis on individuality. "Clarifying the concept early on of what a character can do was very important," he said.
- Notes from Sakurai's GDC 08 presentation
Pieman's Defense Weakened with Power Down!
Toise uses a Power Punch capsule!
Koops uses Appeal!


What did I say about no gambling? :mad:


1) she's the first main character of the series
2) she's a she, and Nintendo lacks she characters.
1)No, she's the first character in America. Adding characters to fill in a critera = no. Marth also had reoccurance.
2)There's "She" Characters that are more deserving in there perspective series than Lyn.

NEWCOMER: TOAD!
I don't know why but I lol'd hard.

As for Trailer characters, characters I can see in the trailer:
Whatever Retro the crew picks when they're bored.
Isaac
Little Mac
Ridley
Some Third-Party. Possibly Megaman.
Other series that have been pretty ignored. Dunno why but I see a Wario character possible to fill up this.

Edit:

For the most part yes, that is a fairly good correlation. While the middle tier of Nintendo series seem to have discrepencies in regards to their exact amount relative to each other, they are still cleraly in a middle tier of characters as opposed to the lower tier Nintendo series which generally don't have much of anything.
Not really. Four out of Twelve is pretty bad, especially when only counting the series IN Smash that may possibly have supporting characters/already have supporting characters.

Granted, It's not like popularity does nothing. As stated, there's a reason Mario got complete first before everyone else. But that doesn't mean we should shoe-***** in content because "Fans ask for it" When there's tons of things fans ask for and "Because It's popular". Bowser's important and carrying Weight to the Mushroom Kingdom group? Duh. Bowser Jr and Toad important and carrying Weight to the Mushroom Kingdom group? Less so, or moreso, debateable.
 

Big-Cat

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Speaking of which another topic: SSB4 debut trailer gogogo. To start off, Isaac would be an awesome character to show off in it.
If they have a repeat of what happened in Brawl's first trailer:

Toad - Significantly requested character like Meta Knight
Lil Mac - Retro Character(albeit a revived one) like Pit
Krystal - Female addition like Zamus
Isaac - "About **** time" character like Wario
Mewtwo OR Megaman- Megaton character like Snake

Mind you, this is supposed to be like the Brawl trailer which is why I did this based on categories.
 

Thirdkoopa

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Oh the amazing debates I can stir up with any person and/or discussion in this thread. This makes up for yesterday.

If they have a repeat of what happened in Brawl's first trailer:

Toad - Significantly requested character like Meta Knight
Lil Mac - Retro Character(albeit a revived one) like Pit
Krystal - Female addition like Zamus
Isaac - "About **** time" character like Wario
Mewtwo OR Megaman- Megaton character like Snake

Mind you, this is supposed to be like the Brawl trailer which is why I did this based on categories.
That's actually not a bad list. Of course, I doubt we'll see a total repeat but If we were to, that would work well. If we were to go by categories, I'd say:

K. Rool - Pretty requested
Retro (Or Mac) - Don't know.
Isaac - "About ****ing time"
Krystal or Mona - Hey, a surprise here is nice. Right?
A character that's just "O_O" - One of the biggest announcements/Shocking announcements. There's multitudes of characters who fall under here but yeah.

Oh snap *Notices Arc is on* QUICK GUYS TO THE ABSOLUTELY SAFE CAPSULE BEFORE WE GET A WALL OF TOAD.
 

Arcadenik

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Very funny, Thirdkoopa, but I am warning you... I am on drugs right now so here comes my skewed view on things. :p

Anyway, I was doing some light reading on the sales/popularity debate between Pieman, Thirdkoopa, and Toise. I have determined that in order for both sides to be right, SSB4 needs to have a generic and uninspired roster that makes no risky moves and brings no surprises. That means keeping everybody from Brawl and adding only the most popular characters from existing franchises for the sake of balancing the Nintendo franchises.

Column 1: Mario main series
1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser
5. Bowser Jr.

Column 2: Mario partner series
6. Donkey Kong
7. Diddy Kong
8. King K. Rool
9. Yoshi
10. Wario

Column 3: Zelda series
11. Link
12. Zelda / Sheik
13. Ganondorf
14. Toon Link
15. Toon Zelda / Toon Sheik

Column 4: Metroid and NES series
16. Samus / Zero Suit Samus
17. Ridley
18. Pit
19. Little Mac (the only new Nintendo franchise)
20. Ice Climbers

Column 5: Kirby and F-Zero series
21. Kirby
22. Meta Knight
23. King Dedede
24. Captain Falcon
25. Samurai Goroh

Column 6: Star Fox and Pikmin series
26. Fox
27. Falco
28. Wolf
29. Krystal
30. Olimar

Column 7: Pokemon series
31. Pokemon Trainer (Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard)
32. Pikachu
33. Jigglypuff
34. Mewtwo
35. Lucario

Column 8: Fire Emblem and Mother series
36. Marth
37. Roy
38. Ike
39. Ness
40. Lucas

Column 9: Nintendo hardware mascots and third party series
41. Mr. Game & Watch
42. R.O.B.
43. Snake
44. Sonic
45. Mega Man (we only added two new franchises, this and Punch-Out)

So yeah.
 

Thirdkoopa

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Very funny, Thirdkoopa, but I am warning you... I am on drugs right now so here comes my skewed view on things. :p
That's possibly the most boring roster, but sadly, asides from a few things (LACK OF ISAAC...PAWNCH) It's basically what a lot of boring generic and bland fan rosters do.

Congratulations. You've created a boring, bland, and generic fan roster! Arcadenik leveled up! Which one of these will he choose?
-> Logic
-> Randomizer
-> Drugs

And If we're going to be discussing fan rosters, my opinions on the next Smash game have already been summed up by Toise from way back when I was lurking. Well, OUTSIDE Of what he said about Square-Enix, the Retro's, and Krystal:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7817077&postcount=20017

I also must say that in an odd way, I enjoy seeing Cafe's rosters too because It's not the bland stuff you see in almost this entire thread, despite it not being as "Realistic"
 

Arcadenik

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Hey! Toise's roster in that link looks almost exactly like the bland roster I just posted.

I would be disappointed if Punch-Out was the only new Nintendo franchise with a playable character. I would love to see the following "new franchise" characters to be playable in the next game:

- Starfy (Starfy series)
- Isaac or the new protagonist (Golden Sun series)
- Saki or Isa (Sin & Punishment series)
- Takamaru (Mysterious Murasame Castle, a Japan-only NES game, and he also appears as a playable guest character in Samurai Warriors 3 for the Wii)
- Tingle (Tingle series, his games has nothing to do with Link, Zelda, and the Triforce)

Oh, and I was just thinking about this for a while... what if the reason Wario got WarioWare-inspired moveset instead of the expected Wario Land-inspired moveset was because it would be a programming nightmare to make Wario's transformations? Imagine if Wario was hit by Mario's Fireball, he turns into Flaming Wario. If he was hit by the Ice Climber's Ice Shot, he turns into Frozen Wario. If he picks up food items, he becomes Fat Wario. If he was flattened by Kirby's Stone, he becomes Flat Wario. Maybe that could explain why Wario is largely based on WarioWare instead of Wario Land and it could partly explain why he wasn't added in Melee in the first place.
 

Big-Cat

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OH GOD NOT THE THEORIES AGAIN!

He's probably like he is in order to distance himself from Mario and that such a moveset like you mentioned couldn't hope to work within the confines of Smash.
 

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@Arcadenik

Toon Sheik=Does not happen. Sheik uses a lot of kicks (all of her standard attacks except U-Smash, Dash Attack, and F-Air), some of which go over Sheik's head. Unless you want to create a character with hitboxes the size of raisins, Toon Sheik will not be created. Ever.

@Everyone

The idea of trailers came up a little while ago, and it got me thinking. Does anybody remember the trailer for Brawl which, at the end, showed Fox taunting and performing several actions with Blaster in hand? It would seem to suggest that Fox was intended to receive a new (or partially new) moveset for Brawl, with focus on the lasers. Which would explain why Fox has his blaster in the official art.

Aha. Here it is > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPuRgFnFzvM
 

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Why have a file named "Toon Sheik"? I am not buying the notion that Sakurai made a file and named it "Toon Sheik" for no reason whatsoever. Oh, and just because Sheik uses kicks and Toon Sheik cannot, doesn't mean Toon Sheik cannot be added. Sakurai even adapted Toon Link by changing Link's kicks into more sword attacks... it is possible Toon Sheik could have more punches in place of Sheik's kicks. I am not saying I want Toon Sheik (or Toon Zelda for that matter), I am only questioning.

And Kuma, you are right. The Wario Land moveset would probably not work properly in Smash - but imagine how difficult the programming would be like if you attempt to do something like that in Smash. Based on that theory, I understand why Wario was based on WarioWare and not Wario Land, but I still don't like his fart move.

N88, do you remember that Falco used two blasters in one scene in the Adventure Mode? It is odd that he only uses one, although I think he uses two in one of his throws?
 

n88

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@Arcadenik

Perhaps he considered it, then arrived at the same conclusion I have. Or maybe he intended for Toon Sheik to have a different moveset, as you suggest. I suppose there's no way of knowing. But I do believe that Tetra will happen rather than Toon Sheik, should Toon Zelda appear.


That is a little weird about Falco...
 

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@Everyone

The idea of trailers came up a little while ago, and it got me thinking. Does anybody remember the trailer for Brawl which, at the end, showed Fox taunting and performing several actions with Blaster in hand? It would seem to suggest that Fox was intended to receive a new (or partially new) moveset for Brawl, with focus on the lasers. Which would explain why Fox has his blaster in the official art.

Aha. Here it is > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPuRgFnFzvM
I wonder why Fox would have been given a new moveset if that was the case. I think holding his gun is really more of aesthetic thing, but that stance he has when standing has always bothered me. If this is the case, then maybe Falco would've taken Fox's old moveset.

EDIT: Forget what I said regaling his stance.

I was looking at Onishiba's post in the tier list thread yesterday and it got me thinking: We really did get a rush product and the evidence is blatant: The tacked on event matches, confusing storyline, Snake's disjointed hitboxes, etc. If everything went as planned and just waited, we might have gotten the game everyone can enjoy.
 

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@Arcadenik

Wario doesn't need to physically or visually transform to use those moves or other moves in Brawl, so I don't think that's why he wasn't included earlier. I believe Sakurai's knowledge of Wario Land is rather limited--WarioWare I'm sure he's familiar with, so...

As for labeling a file "Toon Sheik" for 'no reason whatsoever'--perhaps he intended to express or convey that Tetra would be the Sheik or Toon Sheik for Toon Zelda.

@n88

Or maybe that was an early build of the game, which therefore implies that he didn't have all of his animations yet, specifically where he places the blaster in his holster. Holding the blaster in the official art is more about aesthetics.

His blaster was originally suppose to malfunction or something, though. I think this was to prevent laser spam or SHL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cywX3x_rQUI

I was looking at Onishiba's post in the tier list thread yesterday and it got me thinking: We really did get a rush product and the evidence is blatant: The tacked on event matches, confusing storyline, Snake's disjointed hitboxes, etc. If everything went as planned and just waited, we might have gotten the game everyone can enjoy.
This is why there shouldn't be deadlines. Give yourself as much time as you need to finish your product, then deliver.
 

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@Scooby

Wouldn't it seem more logical to create a "Fox without blaster" animation before a "Fox with blaster" animation, if you were creating Fox without a blaster? I've heard about the blaster malfunction, but never seen the animation.

I imagine that they released Brawl as is because it had already been delayed nearly a year and a half. Not a good decision, but one I can understand.
 

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What you're seeing in that trailer is his "without blaster" animation, they just didn't make it so the blaster goes in the holster after using it. They were probably in the midst of doing so.

And there wouldn't be any delays if they didn't give themselves deadlines. Other development teams that make wow-some games don't do this (the ones I'm thinking about, anyway), and their games usually come out amazing in quality. Brawl's development was sloppy, he didn't have everything together--Melee felt more complete, and it took less time to develop.

Sakurai shouldn't do deadlines, especially after Brawl. I won't accept anything short of amazing next time around.
 

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@Kuma

Any chance you could provide a link to that post?
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8983191&postcount=13607
Mind you that it's just a theory.

What you're seeing in that trailer is his "without blaster" animation, they just didn't make it so the blaster goes in the holster after using it. They were probably in the midst of doing so.

And there wouldn't be any delays if they didn't give themselves deadlines. Other development teams that make wow-some games don't do this (the ones I'm thinking about, anyway), and their games usually come out amazing in quality. Brawl's development was sloppy, he didn't have everything together--Melee felt more complete, and it took less time to develop.

Sakurai shouldn't do deadlines, especially after Brawl. I won't accept anything short of amazing next time around.
I think Nintendo has learned their lesson with this and TP. Now, they're waiting until they're certain about stuff in the game and to prevent hype trains the size of those two. Think about it. Punch-Out!, Sin and Punishment, NSMBWii, SMG 2, Other M, etc. had all been underwraps for the longest time and their releases so far have been within the year they're announced or the year following. I can't say for sure about what you can say for Zelda Wii since we've yet to see anything besides one promo art.

I wouldn't be surprised if the fans are responsible for the deadlines, not strictly just Nintendo.
 

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Oh, I'm 100% positive the fans had much to do with the deadlines, but I firmly hold the development team responsible for giving into the weight of their demands. If they cared, they would've given themselves all the time in the world in order to give the player a fulfilling, complete experience with their product. Hell, IF they cared, they would've released a follow up to Brawl which addresses all the issues the player has to deal with. They honestly need to get their priorities right when time SSB4 is in development, otherwise get some other competent development team to handle it. And don't do another DOJO since it contributed plenty to the massive hype Brawl no where near lived up to. The actual updates were more fun to me than Brawl. Phew!

So yeah, anyone think they can show me a Krystal or K. Rool moveset? I, like, need an idea of how they'd play if playable. lol
 

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Oh, I'm 100% positive the fans had much to do with the deadlines, but I firmly hold the development team responsible for giving into the weight of their demands. If they cared, they would've given themselves all the time in the world in order to give the player a fulfilling, complete experience with their product. Hell, IF they cared, they would've released a follow up to Brawl which addresses all the issues the player has to deal with. They honestly need to get their priorities right when time SSB4 is in development, otherwise get some other competent development team to handle it. And don't do another DOJO since it contributed plenty to the massive hype Brawl no where near lived up to. The actual updates were more fun to me than Brawl. Phew!

So yeah, anyone think they can show me a Krystal or K. Rool moveset? I, like, need an idea of how they'd play if playable. lol
For Krystal, staff or no staff?

For staff:

B: Ice Blast
Shoots what can be best described as frozen fire breath from her staff. This attack can be aimed upwards and downwards making it ideal for anti-air and edge-guarding.
Side B: Fire Blast
Shoots a projectile from her staff that is roughly the same strength as Din's Fire, but the move has significant startup.
Down B: Quake
Krystal thrusts her staff into the ground to create a shockwave around her that puts her opponents in the air open for combos. Not recommended for close range, best used as a punishment attack.
Up B: Rocket Boost
Unlike her fellow space anthros, this move only goes straight up, but she does have better vertical recovery. She hangs on to her staff while it launches upwards. The attack is its strongest at the beginning of the attack (think Luigi) while any other time deals only little damage.

Final Smash: I've never been able to come up with one that's perfect for her.

Overall, Krystal would be a pixie type character like Fox, but she has more of a punishment game so she technically plays more defensively and opportunistically.
 

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I would have liked for Toon Zelda in Brawl if she could transform into Tetra. I wouldn't like it if she transformed into Toon Sheik. But now that Spirit Tracks is out and Tetra is not coming back, is there any point for Toon Zelda to transform into Tetra now if she is added in SSB4? Tetra isn't topical anymore, you know?

ScoobyCafe, Sakurai did the Melee Dojo and it made fans hype for Melee. After they got the game, they were upset with the final roster. Sakurai did the same thing with Brawl and the results was the same anyway. It is really not Sakurai's fault the games weren't great. The games weren't great because it did not live up to our unrealistic expectations. The games themselves are actually great, it is just that it did not live up to what we had in mind. Brawl was a follow-up to Melee and SSB4 will be the follow-up to Brawl.
 
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