Kanunuu
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2015
- Messages
- 56
So I was curious on your guyses thoughts on optimal times to use Foxes throws. This includes all of his throws. Here are my thoughts.
Down throw:
DI AWAY- At zero percents against certain fast fallers, a RAR bair is impossible if they di down and away. This is because they are too low to follow up with a shorthop bair. This begins to work at higher percents but also falls off shortly after and a jump or airdodge read is required. It should be noted that an air dodge results in a frame trap in which fox has a myriad of punishes. Which I think the optimal punish would be pp uptilt, (if their percentage is high enough) or just a regrab.
If you grab then towards the edge this changes due to fox being unable to follow up with rar bair. Sh double lasers will do the job here but be wary that some people instinctually di in at the edge and this can net you an up air.
Another good mix up option is to force a tech situation with shff fair, you can potentially get a Jab lock for huge damage or even a stock if your opponents character has poor vertical recovery, (Ac dair to ff fair to footstool.)
DI IN- This is obviously best case situation but if your opponent does di in, at lower percents you can get fh fair to up air, and at higher percents you can set up for an airdodge 50/50 up air kill.
Up throw: Your second best throw. This puts your opponent in a horrible position.
If they jump they are left without a jump and either have to drift to mid stage or to the ledge. If they drift towards the edge you can hit them with a bair that will likely end the stock. If you are unable to reach them, simply put yourself in an edge guard position. How you play this out is dependent on the matchup. (Eg. Against sheik just try to two frame her with dtilt/ up tilt. Hold sheild near the edge and put yourself in a position where you can cover all options. Or you can attempt a ledge trump 50/50 situation.)
If they try to airdodge to the ground/ledge, after the jump/ up throw, they are vulnerable to airdodge reads and frame traps. Against characters with poor double jumps such as yoshi and ness, an up throw may be smarter than a down throw do to the nature of them wanting to preserve their jump.
If they attempt to trade on the way down, your best bet is to take the trade. This is difficult against characters such as cloud and villager, due to the safety of their dairs and their dis jointed nature. You can try to out space this with bair/trade with up air. Your other option is to bait this. Follow their drift and hit then with a frame trap sh up air, or simply an upsmash. Overall it is best to use up throw at high percentages unless you read their di in.
Forward throw:
This is mainly used at the edge when you read/react to a normal get up. This is a great position for you for many reasons. Regardless of them, if you land a grab at the edge and f throw, follow up with lasers. This is all di, weight, hurtbox, and fallspeed dependent. You have to react and laser accordingly.
1. They are forced to recover and have zero stage control.
2. They are forced to di either not at all, in, or away. If they di away they are sent further off stage and can potentially die at high percentages. If they di in, simply down throw and up air. If they do not di at, then they are either godlike for covering most of the mixup options, or have poor reaction time/understanding of the game. Which means you should win anyway. If they di away on your dthrow mixup, then a sh/fh laser is guaranteed.
3. You can potentially keep them in an infinite loop of option coverages until they mess up and get edgegaurded or decide to get them to a good percent where you have a kill set up. (Eg. Nair to upsmash butt-tilt to upsmash dair to up smash. Literally anything because fox has probably the most kill setups out of the cast besides maybe bayonetta.)
4. This cycle of ledge get up option coverages unstales your prominent kill moves, so that when they recover back to stage control, your next conversion should kill.
The option coverage is as follows: Shield at the edge. Space yourself to cover a regular get up with a grab. Nair out of sheild to cover ledge hop and ledge get up attack. If you hit them against their get up attack, they won't be knocked off far. turn around to cover a potential jump to the stage with sh/fh bair and up tilt. A regular sheild works too. Cover the roll with up tilt/pp uptilt, upsmash at kill percents, or just grab. If they come off the ledge with an attack. Most can be up smashed oos, or sheildgrab. If they drift back to the edge and regrab. An up tilt, dtilt, and dsmash all cover their lack of invulnerability. It should be noted that certain characters have more options of recovery than others. For example, Fox can ledge hop dair your sheild. Due to his auto cancel, you will not only be put at a frame disadvantage, you will likely be crossed up, completely losing stage control and the situation will be reversed. He can also side b to the stage. This is difficult to react to and if you attempt to read his ledge hop dair, you might get punished if he side bs. In this situation it is probably a better idea to not use this form of option coverage and simply give them the stage back. This is of course all matchup dependent. And you have to learn that for yourself.
I kinda trailed off topic, but the point is to only f throw at the ledge.
Back throw: Literally only useful for stage positioning. Not recommended for anything else since he has better options.
Hope this wasn't too long of a read, please tell me if I got anything wrong or if you have anything else to add. I'm curious what you guys think about this.
-Nunu
Down throw:
DI AWAY- At zero percents against certain fast fallers, a RAR bair is impossible if they di down and away. This is because they are too low to follow up with a shorthop bair. This begins to work at higher percents but also falls off shortly after and a jump or airdodge read is required. It should be noted that an air dodge results in a frame trap in which fox has a myriad of punishes. Which I think the optimal punish would be pp uptilt, (if their percentage is high enough) or just a regrab.
If you grab then towards the edge this changes due to fox being unable to follow up with rar bair. Sh double lasers will do the job here but be wary that some people instinctually di in at the edge and this can net you an up air.
Another good mix up option is to force a tech situation with shff fair, you can potentially get a Jab lock for huge damage or even a stock if your opponents character has poor vertical recovery, (Ac dair to ff fair to footstool.)
DI IN- This is obviously best case situation but if your opponent does di in, at lower percents you can get fh fair to up air, and at higher percents you can set up for an airdodge 50/50 up air kill.
Up throw: Your second best throw. This puts your opponent in a horrible position.
If they jump they are left without a jump and either have to drift to mid stage or to the ledge. If they drift towards the edge you can hit them with a bair that will likely end the stock. If you are unable to reach them, simply put yourself in an edge guard position. How you play this out is dependent on the matchup. (Eg. Against sheik just try to two frame her with dtilt/ up tilt. Hold sheild near the edge and put yourself in a position where you can cover all options. Or you can attempt a ledge trump 50/50 situation.)
If they try to airdodge to the ground/ledge, after the jump/ up throw, they are vulnerable to airdodge reads and frame traps. Against characters with poor double jumps such as yoshi and ness, an up throw may be smarter than a down throw do to the nature of them wanting to preserve their jump.
If they attempt to trade on the way down, your best bet is to take the trade. This is difficult against characters such as cloud and villager, due to the safety of their dairs and their dis jointed nature. You can try to out space this with bair/trade with up air. Your other option is to bait this. Follow their drift and hit then with a frame trap sh up air, or simply an upsmash. Overall it is best to use up throw at high percentages unless you read their di in.
Forward throw:
This is mainly used at the edge when you read/react to a normal get up. This is a great position for you for many reasons. Regardless of them, if you land a grab at the edge and f throw, follow up with lasers. This is all di, weight, hurtbox, and fallspeed dependent. You have to react and laser accordingly.
1. They are forced to recover and have zero stage control.
2. They are forced to di either not at all, in, or away. If they di away they are sent further off stage and can potentially die at high percentages. If they di in, simply down throw and up air. If they do not di at, then they are either godlike for covering most of the mixup options, or have poor reaction time/understanding of the game. Which means you should win anyway. If they di away on your dthrow mixup, then a sh/fh laser is guaranteed.
3. You can potentially keep them in an infinite loop of option coverages until they mess up and get edgegaurded or decide to get them to a good percent where you have a kill set up. (Eg. Nair to upsmash butt-tilt to upsmash dair to up smash. Literally anything because fox has probably the most kill setups out of the cast besides maybe bayonetta.)
4. This cycle of ledge get up option coverages unstales your prominent kill moves, so that when they recover back to stage control, your next conversion should kill.
The option coverage is as follows: Shield at the edge. Space yourself to cover a regular get up with a grab. Nair out of sheild to cover ledge hop and ledge get up attack. If you hit them against their get up attack, they won't be knocked off far. turn around to cover a potential jump to the stage with sh/fh bair and up tilt. A regular sheild works too. Cover the roll with up tilt/pp uptilt, upsmash at kill percents, or just grab. If they come off the ledge with an attack. Most can be up smashed oos, or sheildgrab. If they drift back to the edge and regrab. An up tilt, dtilt, and dsmash all cover their lack of invulnerability. It should be noted that certain characters have more options of recovery than others. For example, Fox can ledge hop dair your sheild. Due to his auto cancel, you will not only be put at a frame disadvantage, you will likely be crossed up, completely losing stage control and the situation will be reversed. He can also side b to the stage. This is difficult to react to and if you attempt to read his ledge hop dair, you might get punished if he side bs. In this situation it is probably a better idea to not use this form of option coverage and simply give them the stage back. This is of course all matchup dependent. And you have to learn that for yourself.
I kinda trailed off topic, but the point is to only f throw at the ledge.
Back throw: Literally only useful for stage positioning. Not recommended for anything else since he has better options.
Hope this wasn't too long of a read, please tell me if I got anything wrong or if you have anything else to add. I'm curious what you guys think about this.
-Nunu
