Peach Weekly Matchup Discussion: Pikachu

[z00ted]

Matchup I really feel as though needs to be Re-discussed.

Pikachu

What should be discussed:

• Advantages vs. Pikachu

• Disadvantages vs. Pikachu

• What to ban against Pikachu

• What to counter-pick against Pikachu

• Any videos that can be analyzed and further the discussion

 

[deepseadiva]

...well?

It's like Praxis making a G&W thread and asking everyone to discuss amongst themselves.

 

[z00ted]

err.. I'm not the only one that beats Pikachus, that's why I wanted to discuss the matchup.

 

[deepseadiva]

Your opinion is the only one that matters atm imo.

So give us a juicy write-up.

 

[Eddie G]

Um...Nicole beat ES@M as well, and I play the matchup a ton. Illmatic doesn't have to shoulder the entire responsibility of a writeup if he doesn't want to.

 

[Nicole]

just cause i beat him doesnt mean i know anything about the Mu

seriously, i played how i wanted and it worked because peach has a clear advantage against pikachu. her aerial priority destroys him. other than that i have no idea about what small particulars peach has over him or he has on her. i would be interested to hear what ill and kyon have to say as they both have much more matchup experience than i do.

 

[Queen B. Kyon]

Hmmm.....

 

[Nordal]

When I go home Raz will probably visit and we'll learn this matchup for specifics. In the meantime, discuss what is known?

 

[Nordal]

Bumping if that's okay. After playing with Raz offline and several of the Peaches online, I do believe this matchup is completely even. I'll go into specifics tomorrow

 

[z00ted]

It's not an even matchup.

60:40

I'll bring up my points after Nordal brings up his.

 

[Tesh]

I think Illmatic does alright against Pikachu. This is just from personal experience though.

 

[Nordal]

Well then I guess I'll make a few of my points right now then Ill.

I hear A LOT of people complain or bring up Peach's priority in this matchup, and it's true. Peach's moves consistently have much higher priority than pikachu's. But of course there are always exceptions (Forward smash beating most of her ground game and ground floated aerials, Uair beating Dair, D smash beating landing Bair).

Turnips:

Turnips are so.... weird in this matchup. Normally turnips help Peach with her approaches and with camping, but Pikachu's Fair just destroys them. Glide toss approaches won't work because Fair allows Pikachu to catch the turnip and hit Peach as she's gliding forward. Defensive glide tosses put both in a neutral position and Fair will either catch the turnip or extinguish it (they don't have good priority unless it's a dot eye/stitchy).

Aerial approaches with turnips are nullified as well. Fair will either catch a forward thrown turnip or extinguish it, and Pikachu's body is thrown pretty far ahead from his original position. This is important because it will often hit Peach before her Fair comes out, and assuming you're not by her feet, you'll hit her mid-> upper body and avoid Dair's hitbox, beating dair approaches as well.

Fair is just really, REALLY gay vs Peach because it's quick, sticks you out further than you originated and a lot of her aerials (in particular her approaches) have semi-laggy startups and are interrupted before they come out.

Peach's Bair will beat Fair flat out, so watch out for that one and try to shield->punish.

How you use a turnip after you've caught it is up to you. Another thing to note is that Fair is pretty safe on shield when she's holding a turnip (I won't say safe for certain since I don't know frame data very well) because her great out of shield game (particularly Nair) is only really usable in float form from OoS (which is really hard to do and really easy to mess up, unless it's Bair but that doesn't apply if you're pressuring her from the front).

Peach's Dair:

**** this move. It's as gay vs Pikachu as Pikachu's Fair is vs Peach. It beat's his ground game and the only real answer to it is to shield and then punish or get around the hitbox with Fair, Uair, or Bair. Luckily SDI exists but still it's priority over his ground game is annoying.

Peach's Fair:

I treat this move like Metaknight's forward smash. Laggy startup, virtually no end lag (actually I believe it has -2 frames of landing lag if done while fastfalling, so gaaaaaaay). You basically want to punish what comes after. And of course if you can get under her before she lands with it you can hit her from below (she swings downward so if you're underneath you can do w/e).

Let's see, some other quick mental notes are:

-Peach floating way above you and Dairing (to zone you out) can be thundered.

-If Peach Dairs after you Uthrow her I think thunder is guaranteed (not COMPLETELY sure on this one).

-If Peach is holding a turnip she can not infamously combo break from Uair combos using Nair, so Uair->Nair will always work (I think at least, as I said I don't frame test these are just observations I've made from playing against and as Peach).

-Illmatic Peach mains who get desperate for the kill and repeatedly ground float Fair to try and force the kill can be F smashed, or Fair'd.

-Down smash has surprisingly good priority vs Peach when she's trying to land. Make sure she's used up her float though.

-Forward smash overall doesn't seem to be a very effective move on Peach. Her Fair and Bair have both consistently beaten it due to the angle she comes in at and she can just easily float over it.

-Peach's airdodge seems to move her a pretty good distance despite it's ****ty invulnerability frames. Read where she's going for the thunder kill because she seems a bit difficult to kill with thunder after you up smash (surprisingly)

-Dair seems to usually at least clash with her Uair (when she tries to combo juggle you). Don't land Dair vs Peach when she's on the ground. Her up smash can kill you really early and her up tilt beats every Dair in the game.


I'll think more about it tomorrow.

 

[z00ted]

cool

i'll post my thoughts tomorrow
definitely wont be that big of a post though, since you covered quite a bit

 

[z00ted]

Aim Chat With Nordal On Peach vs Pikachu matchup:

octilleryclinton 1:52 am
had to post your name cuz im trying to break that kill desperation habit of yours
granted it's not as common as it used to be

illmatiiiccc 1:52 am
don't worry about it

octilleryclinton 1:52 am
but my goal is to make you a juggernaut

illmatiiiccc 1:52 am
like i said, i was just throwing out fairs hoping to land one
cause i had a lead xD lol
i played tons of Pikachu vs Peach tonight with Vinnie
it's not even >_>

octilleryclinton 1:53 am
you as pikachu?

illmatiiiccc 1:53 am
his Pikachu is extremely good too.
him

octilleryclinton 1:53 am
does he know the matchup tho

illmatiiiccc 1:53 am
well, yeah
he mains Peach
well
secondaries her

octilleryclinton 1:53 am
vinnie
mains everyone

illmatiiiccc 1:53 am
:]
plus, he plays me 24/7

octilleryclinton 1:53 am
he's a mk/ic/gw main technically tho
im full on pikachu
with peach on the side
and just starting IC's
i know the matchup from both sides

illmatiiiccc 1:53 am
yeah, I know

octilleryclinton 1:53 am
and just like
frustrating little things ive had vs trevonte's fox
which sounds weird but
i exploit those same weaknesses
as pikacu
pikachu*

octilleryclinton 1:54 am
only vinnie showed different options as peach but even then our matches were pretty even
and laggy too
but i just don't see this as an uneven matchup

illmatiiiccc 1:54 am
yeah, we don't lag at all
trust me it's not even
or else I wouldnt win
as much as I do versus the character

octilleryclinton 1:55 am
i used to think it was slight peach advantage but now i think its even

illmatiiiccc 1:55 am
an aggressive peach that baits the kill ***** pikachu

octilleryclinton 1:55 am
and you discredit yourself as a player by saying that
esam has beaten every marth he's played in tournament, yet he says it's even

illmatiiiccc 1:55 am
plus, Pikachu isn't that great of a killer and is light (disregarding amazing horizontal di)

octilleryclinton 1:55 am
he is but so is peach

illmatiiiccc 1:55 am
imo

octilleryclinton 1:55 am
and his kill moves are stronger than hers

illmatiiiccc 1:56 am
in this specific matchup, peach has much more killing options though

octilleryclinton 1:56 am
she does

illmatiiiccc 1:56 am
which helps
and she has quicker kill moves

octilleryclinton 1:56 am
she wont be killing as early unless both are super patient
pikachu's nair
is 3 frames
that's as fast as hers

illmatiiiccc 1:56 am
well, im under the impression that peach will not be dying by a dumb thunder or something
Pikachu's nair is harder to land.

octilleryclinton 1:56 am
they're both hard to land
xD

illmatiiiccc 1:56 am
ehhhh
yeah, sorta.
anyways, throw more stuff at me

octilleryclinton 1:57 am
more matchup specifics?

illmatiiiccc 1:57 am
yeah
we can ctrl + c -> ctrl + v this convo
on the matchup thread

octilleryclinton 1:57 am
i think you should also realize
no other pikachu uses Fair vs peach the way I do
i dont think they realize how good it is vs her

illmatiiiccc 1:58 am
it's really good

octilleryclinton 1:58 am
i studied esam vs kyon

illmatiiiccc 1:58 am
vinnie was doing it versus me

octilleryclinton 1:58 am
and k prime vs you
neither of them used it
at all

illmatiiiccc 1:58 am
i just adapted quickly when you used it and vinnie used it
i dont have to use turnips, honestly
or i can just throw them up

octilleryclinton 1:58 am
you shouldnt use them

illmatiiiccc 1:58 am
or backwards glide toss

octilleryclinton 1:58 am
he ***** you when you do
xD

illmatiiiccc 1:58 am
not necessarily
offstage turnips are pretty good

octilleryclinton 1:58 am
you know what i mean
approaches

illmatiiiccc 1:58 am
well yeah
the typical illmatic -> foward glide toss
doesn't work as well versus pikachu

octilleryclinton 1:59 am
it does when they dont know
about Fair

illmatiiiccc 1:59 am
but it doesn't drastically effect the matchup

octilleryclinton 1:59 am
that's not the only case tho
regular toss and aerial tosses are both ***** by it
you shouldve seen raz trying stuff
hell only vinnie realize that you can only be completely neutral with a turnip if you're doing float aerials with it in hand
even then Fair can poke you before your Fair comes out
its so gay
but your Dair is gay too

illmatiiiccc 2:00 am
trust me

octilleryclinton 2:00 am
its just one giant gay orgy

illmatiiiccc 2:00 am
Peach > Pikachu lol

illmatiiiccc 2:00 am
insane shield pressure
Pikachu has a poopy shield

octilleryclinton 2:00 am
great OoS game however

illmatiiiccc 2:00 am
plus, we have more kill options and have quicker killing moves
both characters have great OoS game
if you even think about touching my shield first
you're dead
and the same goes for me (in some situations but not as drastically)
peach has
nair
and bair
plus she can GF them
to catch landings
pikachu has like.. a upsmash lol

octilleryclinton 2:01 am
to catch landings?

illmatiiiccc 2:02 am
and a utilt at higher percentages

octilleryclinton 2:02 am
downsmash baby

illmatiiiccc 2:02 am
o
l

octilleryclinton 2:02 am
it beats snake's landing aerials
now think about how peach's hitboxes compare to his

illmatiiiccc 2:02 am
*is not snake*
*floats away*

octilleryclinton 2:02 am
assuming you dont have float

illmatiiiccc 2:02 am
that **** is soo easy to read lol

octilleryclinton 2:02 am
if you have float i shouldnt be trying to read a landing

illmatiiiccc 2:02 am
you have to stay neutral to pull it out

illmatiiiccc 2:02 am
even if i dont have a float
peach is more "floatier"

octilleryclinton 2:03 am
which can lead to Uair juggling
which usually does beat Dair btw
sometimes it doesnt when i misspace it tho
that's just annoying :/
quick
should i have
ice cream
or milky ways

illmatiiiccc 2:03 am
both
nah nah
milky ways

octilleryclinton 2:03 am
there can only be one

illmatiiiccc 2:03 am
too late for cold *** ice cream
another thing i want to add
is that Peach is going to be outputting a lot more damage compared to pikachu
and they are both fairly light characters
it just... makes sense
Peach > Pikachu

octilleryclinton 2:04 am
i disagree with her outputting more damage

illmatiiiccc 2:04 am
it's one of the few high tier matchups that I can wholeheartedly back up

octilleryclinton 2:04 am
pikachu can combo peach very effeciently as well

illmatiiiccc 2:04 am
true

illmatiiiccc 2:04 am
but it's not drastic
we are almost guaranteed a shieldpoke

octilleryclinton 2:04 am
with Dair?

illmatiiiccc 2:05 am
if the Peach has good skill in combos / strings
not soley dair
i mean like
two dairs
falling double nair
almost always works
if it doesn't
just land next to them
and dsmash or ftilt lol

octilleryclinton 2:05 am
if you're backing up with Dair you do realize pikachu can SH Fair you OoS right

illmatiiiccc 2:05 am
we can just falling nair and beat that
right?

octilleryclinton 2:05 am
I think fair is more disjointed than her nair
either way i usually hit with fair before Dair is done

illmatiiiccc 2:06 am
probably, im not tooo sure on that specific ****

octilleryclinton 2:06 am
and it hits cuz its above her feet

illmatiiiccc 2:06 am
cause it doesn't happen to me often

octilleryclinton 2:06 am
like
i completely understand
where you're coming from
you ****ing beat
esam
pooped on k prime
and all the peach mains have been ****** the pikachus

illmatiiiccc 2:06 am
so you just think
pikachus need to step it up? lol

octilleryclinton 2:07 am
maybe
didnt you think the peach mains needed to step it up?
when you were first starting off?

illmatiiiccc 2:07 am
lol, definitely
but i was talking about
Pikachu mains specifically in the Peach matchup

octilleryclinton 2:07 am
yes i do believe they do need to step it up
esam had no ****ing clue what he was doing vs kyon
that's not to discredit your win against him
you earned that and im very proud of you for it

illmatiiiccc 2:08 am
yeah, im well aware that ESAM doesn't really understand the matchup
even though we have all played him tons of times

illmatiiiccc 2:08 am
it's sorta like my Marth thing >_>

octilleryclinton 2:08 am
he doesnt understand peach
yes
exactly
plus i used to solo main peach so that kindve helps

illmatiiiccc 2:09 am
eh
let's talk about CPs now
and starters
like, stage stuff

octilleryclinton 2:10 am
gimme a sick
sec*
i have to murder something

illmatiiiccc 2:10 am
l0l

octilleryclinton 2:10 am
there's a cricket

illmatiiiccc 2:10 am
o
l

octilleryclinton 2:10 am
in our house

illmatiiiccc 2:10 am
j

octilleryclinton 2:10 am
chirping the **** away
and now it has to die for that

illmatiiiccc 2:10 am
y u k
y2k

illmatiiiccc 2:11 am
11
o L u Q y

octilleryclinton 2:12 am
the coward
fled under the couch
">:o"
it will die tomorrow/later

illmatiiiccc 2:13 am
u will die 2night
it will seek revenge
and gather the masses

octilleryclinton 2:13 am
im not afraid
i have raid

illmatiiiccc 2:13 am
o
l
-dead-

octilleryclinton 2:13 am
now then
stages
uuuhm
peach seems to do better on neutrals overall

illmatiiiccc 2:14 am
yeah, i totally agree

octilleryclinton 2:14 am
not including brinstar
what did esam ban against you anyways

illmatiiiccc 2:14 am
battlefield l0llllllllll
worst decision of his life

octilleryclinton 2:14 am
duhduhduhduh
pikachu's good stages vs her would probably be like
PS1
cuz of the f throw cg vs the wall

illmatiiiccc 2:14 am
yeah, i can see that
situational though

octilleryclinton 2:15 am
a nice little 60% you didnt see coming

illmatiiiccc 2:15 am
i was thinking halberd (low ceilings)

octilleryclinton 2:15 am
situational things happen all the time

illmatiiiccc 2:15 am
but i would usually ban that.

octilleryclinton 2:15 am
halberd?

illmatiiiccc 2:15 am
definitely

octilleryclinton 2:15 am
not a huge fan of the stage but yeah it could work
pikachu dies earlier too tho

illmatiiiccc 2:15 am
a (at times) bigger stage than FD
peach isn't the biggest vertical killer, though

octilleryclinton 2:15 am
delfino is pretty effective vs peach cuz the stage often interupts her float as its changing

illmatiiiccc 2:15 am
ehhhhhhh
idk, delfino would be nice for us

octilleryclinton 2:15 am
idk i ***** raz there so maybe its just bias xD

illmatiiiccc 2:16 am
it's always a "peach stage" imo

octilleryclinton 2:16 am
rainbow cruise
is dangerous for both characters

illmatiiiccc 2:16 am
both of us do well
yeah, exactly
really just player dependent

octilleryclinton 2:16 am
on the moving part where its solid ground
pikachu can f throw cg in the left direction
idk how far but i got like
50% off of that
he's obviously better at the moving part
but peach kills earlier and that's really bad news for pika

illmatiiiccc 2:17 am
hmmm yeah
so in my opinion
Peach overall, has better stage options
and counterpicks

octilleryclinton 2:17 am
its hard to say

illmatiiiccc 2:17 am
well

octilleryclinton 2:17 am
they dont really stage counterpick each other that hard

illmatiiiccc 2:17 am
ok
assume that the Pikachu bans Brinstar

octilleryclinton 2:17 am
aside from brinstar but that should be banned

illmatiiiccc 2:18 am
I would probably counterpick to Battlefield
since platforms mess up Pikachu quite a bit

octilleryclinton 2:18 am
yeah its harder to land

illmatiiiccc 2:18 am
so

octilleryclinton 2:18 am
not a bad pikachu stage in general its just
better for peach

illmatiiiccc 2:18 am
let's look at it from pikachu's standpoint
I would ban Halberd
(just me)

octilleryclinton 2:19 am
you would get taken to ps1

illmatiiiccc 2:19 am
would you take me to FD, I assume?
oh Ps1
not that big of a deal, honestly
Peach does well there.

octilleryclinton 2:19 am
she does

octilleryclinton 2:19 am
pikachu's camp game is stronger there
it wraps around obstacles

illmatiiiccc 2:19 am
true

octilleryclinton 2:19 am
and that f throw cg might happen

illmatiiiccc 2:19 am
but if the Peach can react quickly to the jolts, she can turnip camp

octilleryclinton 2:19 am
she can

illmatiiiccc 2:19 am
and try to get a better pull

octilleryclinton 2:19 am
depends where she is

illmatiiiccc 2:20 am
yeah

octilleryclinton 2:20 am
but yes
she can turnip camp

illmatiiiccc 2:20 am
so, you still think it's even?

octilleryclinton 2:20 am
i do

illmatiiiccc 2:20 am
k
since you brought up a lot of good ****
i'm willing to drop my matchup a little

octilleryclinton 2:20 am
even esam thinks its even

illmatiiiccc 2:20 am
i'd say it's somewhere between 45:55-40:60
o
l
i'm not saying it's even though

illmatiiiccc 2:21 am
i'll stick to 55:45 Peach's favor.
Peach definitely has the tools to beat Pikachu.

octilleryclinton 2:21 am
i never said she didnt
even implies both characters have an equal shot of winning providing the players are equally competent

illmatiiiccc 2:21 am
well, Peach has "more" tools lol
yeah, I know

octilleryclinton 2:22 am
peach has "more" tools than anyone cuz of float
quality over quantity
but yes
she does have quite a bit of options
but still pikachu's Fair just
kills so much
;_;

illmatiiiccc 2:22 am
l0l

octilleryclinton 2:22 am
i felt your pain

illmatiiiccc 2:22 am
it's honestly not that bad

octilleryclinton 2:22 am
its not
its just annoying
like peach's dair

illmatiiiccc 2:22 am
if you're going strictly off of what happened today

octilleryclinton 2:22 am
dont be silly

illmatiiiccc 2:23 am
i didn't adapt yet, i played better later on
(johns)

octilleryclinton 2:23 am
ive been thinking its even for awhile
i had a hunch it was after consistently beating 2link on wifi
and thought it was after learning it for sure with raz

illmatiiiccc 2:23 am
o
l

octilleryclinton 2:23 am
raz doesnt combo as well but he's very proficient
and he has very good reaction time
but he was clearly getting frustrated by stuff i was doing because i was adapting and figuring the character out
i am just beginning to explore these uncharted territories
and now i want more milky way
fat fat fat fat fat

illmatiiiccc 2:24 am
tasty
k
that was good
i dont need to post in the peach boards now
just copy and paste
thanks my nigggaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[z00ted]

sorry, triple post l0l

 

[Meru.]

Dear Illmatic.

I will not be reading a chatlog.

Pikachu's nair is harder to land.

octilleryclinton 1:56 am
they're both hard to land
xD

illmatiiiccc 1:56 am
ehhhh
yeah, sorta.

HOWEVER this caught my eye. Peach's Nair is waaaaay easier to land than Pikachu's. It especially works well vs Pikachu as an OoS option, since he doesn't have that much range at all. Basically every misspaced move of Pikahoe can be punished with OoS Nair. FC Nair also seems to help tremendously vs a (landing) Pikachu. Her aerials shine in this match-up, and Nair is no exception.

 

[Nordal]

Dear Illmatic.

I will not be reading a chatlog.



HOWEVER this caught my eye. Peach's Nair is waaaaay easier to land than Pikachu's. It especially works well vs Pikachu as an OoS option, since he doesn't have that much range at all. Basically every misspaced move of Pikahoe can be punished with OoS Nair. FC Nair also seems to help tremendously vs a (landing) Pikachu. Her aerials shine in this match-up, and Nair is no exception.

Nair is good for catching landings, but it doesn't have enough range to punish most of his ground game OoS, and you'll probably only hit with the weak part of nair to punish his FH aerials OoS. You're better off jabbing OoS.

If you don't read it then it's your loss. It was mostly a matchup discussion.

 

[z00ted]

it was a pretty good matchup discussion :/