Smash Wii U Proof if you ever needed it that SSB4 (Wii U version at least) is between Melee and Brawl in Speed

[R0Y]

Credits to DaBoss on Neogaf: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108149919&postcount=18013

---------------------------------------- Brawl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Smash 4 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Project M ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Melee -----------------------------

Total frames (brackets indicate amount of frames right before landing animation):
Brawl = 53 (50)
Smash 4 = 45 (43)
Project M = 39 (37)
Melee = 39 (37)

Frame that second jump starts:
Brawl = 16
Smash 4 = 16
Project M = 15
Melee = 13

Another thing to note. They all start falling at the 23rd/24th frame (Melee seems more like 22nd/23rd frame).

All 0.03 seconds per frame (30ms/frame)

It isn't a different GIF, but I still feel the PM one is missing a frame.

This measures fall speed assuming the jump heights are the same. And it clearly isn't, but still interesting to see.

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As we all know, Sakurai said SSB4 would be faster than Brawl but slower than Melee.

"So now, for this time around, we're sort of aiming for something that is in between those as far as the speed of the game. Because I don't really think this time we're in a situation where we're trying to accommodate that many new players." -Sakurai

So even slightly closer to Melee than Brawl, very interesting. Yes, this is just Fox, but being the extreme end of falling speed in Melee (to the point of feeling like he wears concrete shoes) to being 3rd fastest faller in Brawl, he should be a pretty good indicator of the speed of the game.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Falling faster or slower doesn't really indicate game speed reliably (Jigglypuff is not one of the slow characters, and her general gameplay would be sped up if she fell even slower than she does now), but this is still very interesting anyway.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

It's not proof as the OP claims but it is compelling evidence. Good work, DaBoss!

Btw, check out the source for larger versions of the gifs.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I was busy noticing that Pit got wrecked.

Nice to have someone compare the apparent speeds though. Although all that confirms would be the falling speed of Fox. The game speed could still be faster, and Fox's falling speed has just remained nerfed to avoid Fox being too good again.

 

[R0Y]

Falling faster or slower doesn't really indicate game speed reliably (Jigglypuff is not one of the slow characters, and her general gameplay would be sped up if she fell even slower than she does now), but this is still very interesting anyway.

Doesn't confirm, but it's pretty reliable, especially with a character like Fox. Much of the huge slowdown between Melee and Brawl was due to characters weighing far less. Only reason this isn't a great indicator itself is because the jump height in SSB4 cannot be reliably measured.

 

[Pazzo.]

Well, that is interesting. Not a complete case, but I'm glad things are coming together!

 

[DaDavid]

I think this says more about game-pace than game-speed, BUT in the end that's all I really care about so... cool to see.

 

[NewGuy79]

plenty good find, is there anymore of this gif frame data stuff?

with the direct over and done we got plenty of footage that we can dive into

 

[Renji64]

Good stuff

 

[Tornado_Man]

Good find. Though was there any doubt about the game's speed?

 

[Cap'nChreest]

I though that Captain Falcons Falcon kick had some awesome kill power in Sm4sh. Turns out it was Little Mac's Punch. And I forgot that Captain Falcon hadn't been revealed yet lol.

I really like that they are closing the gap in this game. Hopefully it ends up being very close to Melee. I don't know why P:M is up there though.

 

[Empyrean]

I literally watched the direct 3-4 times just to get a general idea of falling speeds in this game, and like this guy showed, things have been sped up. It sometimes even felt like some characters had their Melee/PM fall-speed back, but I don't have any comparisons to verify this.

 

[Mota]

Watching videos, it does seem faster, which gives me hope.

Now is there anything on hitstun?

 

[DaDavid]

Watching videos, it does seem faster, which gives me hope.

Now is there anything on hitstun?

Only if you believe that the cloud-trail behind players is a sign of hitstun.

 

[Downdraft]

OP, after reading the Sakurai quote, it just dawned on me that maybe one reason layers of gameplay were removed from Brawl was due to the Wii's success. Perhaps he imagined that Brawl would be more successful sales-wise than Melee. It sold a few million more copies, but I wouldn't call that successful. I don't know how many people know this, but the attach rates for Melee and Brawl are far different. Melee approximately sold 1 copy per 3 GameCube while Brawl has approximately sold 1 copy per 8.5 Wii. I wonder what Smash 4's attach rate will be. The Wii U population is small, but Mario Kart 8, Smash 4, and Zelda Wii U will hopefully at least double the system's sales.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Why isn't smash 64 represented on there and project m is? I think this game will be most like smash 64 in terms of speed.

 

[smashbro29]

(to the point of feeling like he wears concrete shoes)

I know it's not the point but it's gonna drive me nuts if I don't say it.

Before Nintendo ruined Star Fox, Fox and Falco had metal legs. So the kicks and fast falling speeds made sense.

Why isn't smash 64 represented on there and project m is? I think this game will be most like smash 64 in terms of speed.

I agree, get 64 on the board.

 

[R0Y]

I know it's not the point but it's gonna drive me nuts if I don't say it.

Before Nintendo ruined Star Fox, Fox and Falco had metal legs. So the kicks and fast falling speeds made sense.



I agree, get 64 on the board.

Rare "ruined" Star Fox with what didn't look like metal legs anymore.

I'll give you pre-Adventures having metal legs but Nintendo didn't ruin anything. I loved Star Fox Adventures by the way.

 

[smashbro29]

Rare "ruined" Star Fox with what didn't look like metal legs anymore.

I'll give you pre-Adventures having metal legs but Nintendo didn't ruin anything. I loved Star Fox Adventures by the way.

Nintendo gets final say on designs, ergo Nintendo ruined Star Fox.

 

[R0Y]

Nintendo gets final say on designs, ergo Nintendo ruined Star Fox.

That's some "logic." Nobody ruined Star Fox and if anybody did it was Rare's design alone.

Melee Fox looks like a Shiba Inu by the way.

 

[Khao]

My ideal dream fall speed is Brawl's floaty falling, but with Melee's fast-fall speed once you fast fall.

Just generally having an intermediate speed between both seems like a perfect compromise, I dig!

 

[smashbro29]

That's some "logic." Nobody ruined Star Fox and if anybody did it was Rare's design alone.

Melee Fox looks like a Shiba Inu by the way.

This is getting a bit off topic.

But I'm eager to see this through, that is good logic. All you did was put the word in quotes.

If Nintendo allows a company to do something with their IP it is their fault. It really is that simple (Like how Capcom ruined Devil May Cry). They could have corrected it in subsequent games but didn't unless you count 64 3D. So whoever you want to blame, it'll never be the same and it's worse off for it.

Melee Fox looks like Fox as he was in the only two Star Fox games that had any cultural relevance. That's what's important. Yes I know Falco looks like some kind of colorful parrot and Fox looks like some kind of dog to some people but that's irrelevant when they're standing on 2 legs fighting with lasers. Sonic sure as hell doesn't look like a hedgehog.

This is somewhat on topic because the way Fox works now (kicking and fast falling) makes 0 sense without the metal legs.

(This is ignoring the design in Brawl/4 is actually a big deviation from any design).

 

[Smash G]

I hated fall speed in Melee. I want it to make sense . Being fast does't make you fall faster...

Anyways this isn't really proof since it only compares one character. Fox could be faster or slower and that wouldn't mean jack if the rest of the characters didn't have similar changes.


EDIT:
And to the people arguing about who "ruined" Starfox. Face the facts. He was never that good anyways. A few decent games. Nothing epic. Don't tell me either Star Fox for the N64 or SNES was as far reaching as other Nintendo games like Mario and Zelda. Star Fox is minor leagues compared to Nintendo's other big players.

 

[smashbro29]

I hated fall speed in Melee. I want it to make sense . Being fast does't make you fall faster...

Anyways this isn't really proof since it only compares one character. Fox could be faster or slower and that wouldn't mean jack if the rest of the characters didn't have similar changes.


EDIT:
And to the people arguing about who "ruined" Starfox. Face the facts. He was never that good anyways. A few decent games. Nothing epic. Don't tell me either Star Fox for the N64 or SNES was as far reaching as other Nintendo games like Mario and Zelda. Star Fox is minor leagues compared to Nintendo's other big players.

Interesting that you bring that up. It's a very valid point.

On your edit however: Star Fox 64 is a classic you can keep playing for better scores. It's a game that never really ends. So it's fresh on my mind very often.

Can't say the same for Legend of 1 Hour Tutorial or Super Rehash Bros. (See it's easy).

 

[lami]

I hated fall speed in Melee. I want it to make sense . Being fast does't make you fall faster...

Anyways this isn't really proof since it only compares one character. Fox could be faster or slower and that wouldn't mean jack if the rest of the characters didn't have similar changes.


EDIT:
And to the people arguing about who "ruined" Starfox. Face the facts. He was never that good anyways. A few decent games. Nothing epic. Don't tell me either Star Fox for the N64 or SNES was as far reaching as other Nintendo games like Mario and Zelda. Star Fox is minor leagues compared to Nintendo's other big players.

Star Fox 64 was pretty damn successful. For the 4.03 mil copies sold, and the lasting impression it left on a lot of kids growing up. I still quote SF64 to my friends. It all really comes down to personal preference. (and fanboyism.)

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Lets not make this thread about Starfox its bound to get locked if this keeps going.

 

[2ndComing]

I have no opinion on Star Fox really but I know its a decent series but you all need to chill with that. Star Fox isn't ruined and there is not to much wrong with the recent games besides Command I believe. Plus the boots could easily be covering his metal feet, did ya ever think about that? I feel its more of nostalgia blindness than anything and the new design is fine, nothing bad, everything evolves and changes so its time to stop living in the past and move on and just accept. Otherwise your just being sort of nostalgia blind

Anyway, I see the game is faster and it looks more natural than Melee characters with lead in their pockets and Brawl characters having air ballons attached to their back. The hitstun looks ok but I guess we have to wait and see and I like seeing that Link's recovery might be better, hopefully it is more horizontal this time like it is in PM. I just wish we could get out hands on the game, hopefully if I go to E3 this year I will get to play it after 5 hours of waiting because we all know how long that line will be

 

[[TSON]]

hopefully if I go to E3 this year I will get to play it after 5 hours of waiting because we all know how long that line will be

Didn't Nintendo say that all of their E3 demos would be available in the eShop this year, or Best Buy or something like that?

 

[Radical Larry]

Here's to hoping Link's fall speed is the same in Brawl's (or better) and his air speed is better. We already got some good stuff, but we need more.

 

[2ndComing]

Didn't Nintendo say that all of their E3 demos would be available in the eShop this year, or Best Buy or something like that?

They did that last year but if I remember right not all of them were playable right? If they do do that there will still be so much traffic

Here's to hoping Link's fall speed is the same in Brawl's (or better) and his air speed is better. We already got some good stuff, but we need more.

I like Link so far, he is ok but I hope his buffs make him better

also how are you gonna Main Ganon in everygame but PM where he is at his best

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Can someone get a GIF of fox jumping in smash 64 or at least his jump frame data?

 

[Shaya]

With the thread kinda faulting a bit...

This threads already been covering mechanical talks and whatnot though:
http://smashboards.com/threads/game-play-and-technical-analysis.352029/