Question on buffering upsmash out of throws/grab release

[LanceStern]

At the Dedede boards, they have found a way to buffer their hyphen smash (dashing upsmash) out of down throw by holding jump during the down throw animation and then upsmashing.

There is something about jump cancelling - or holding the jump button - that makes it work.


A small peach trick that helps us make the Ness/Lucas match LOL is that when we grab them and pummel, once they ground release we can re-grab them again across the stage until we feel like ending their misery.

This is because Ness and Lucas have an extra ___ frames of helplessness when they are grab-released. So adding all of that together, can we buffer Peaches' upsmash (EDIT: I meant to say hyphen smash) out of a ground release? That would mean that around 90% we could grab -> KO ness and Lucas.



I've tried it on lvl 9 CPUs. I have both got a sweet spotted upsmash for the KO (around 90%) and I've had them shield. The cool thing is they couldn't really punish after the shield because the upsmash pushed them back.


Any thoughts?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

This is because Ness and Lucas have an extra 10 frames of helplessness when they are grab-released

I tested this myself and got mixed results too. I don't think Peach would be able to get an Up Smash on them tbh - you've only got 10 frames to follow up with something

 

[LanceStern]

Is it 10 EXTRA frames or just 10 frames total?

What's the typical helpless amount of frames?

 

[z00ted]

man Lance, I sware you come up with one of these threads every week.

you remind me of some wacky inventor in a cartoon or something.

I bet you will find something groundbreaking one of these days

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Is it 10 EXTRA frames or just 10 frames total?

What's the typical helpless amount of frames?

They suffer 10 extra frames of lag. 40 frames in total...I think
IIRC, upon ground grab release, each side suffers 30 frames of lag (give or take a frame, I remember someone once saying that the grabber suffers 29 frames and the person grabbed suffers 31 but I'm not sure if that's true) and upon air release, the grabber suffers 30 frames of lag whereas the person grabbed suffers 50 frames of lag (provided they don't land)

The exceptions to this are
-Bowser (he suffers only 20 frames of lag when grab releasing someone) = +10 advantage upon grab releasing for Bowser
-DK (he suffers only 20 frames upon being ground grab released) = +10 advantage upon being ground grab released for DK
-Jigglypuff (she suffers 49 frames of lag upon air grab release...lol)
-Ness/Lucas (these guys suffer 40 frames of lag upon being ground grab released) = -10 advantage upon ground grab releasing for Ness/Lucas

...but that means that we get a +10 advantage upon ground grab releasing them (40 - 30 = 10)

Unfortunately, since we only have 10 frames, I wouldn't have thought it'd be possible to get an Up Smash in considering Up Smash's first hit comes out on frame 14...maybe that's why we've been getting mixed results since it's only off by 4 frames
Although, I'm not factoring in the frames needed to start moving in order for the Up Smash to actually connect


Does anyone know how much of a frame advantage DeDeDe has upon using D Throw on a CGable character? It must be a lot more than 10 if he can not only running regrab characters (and he has to run quite a bit to regrab some characters) but also buffer an Up Smash into some characters since his Up Smash comes out on frame 20

I suggest you get someone else like hotgarbage to check all of this stuff cause I could very well be wrong with my info (it'd be much more reliable coming from somebody else )
I'm just gonna stick to Air release --> Fair for now since I'm not sure if getting an Up Smash would be 100% guaranteed

Grab release --> Up Smash could however be a nasty surprise for the Ness/Lucas player if they aren't expecting it and it could also be a real threat to Lucas since Peach doesn't really have any finishers out of a grab release on him

man Lance, I sware you come up with one of these threads every week.

you remind me of some wacky inventor in a cartoon or something.

I bet you will find something groundbreaking one of these days

And I will always be there to question it and be an annoying **** in general <3

nah but it's good someone is testing this stuff and generating potentially useful stuff

 

[LanceStern]

I'm trying to find that kicker that puts Peach over the top. Good play is definitely the best way to win, but having a guaranteed KO or a +70% advantage every stock is not too shabby either.

 

[~momentai~]

They suffer 10 extra frames of lag. 40 frames in total...I think
IIRC, upon ground grab release, each side suffers 30 frames of lag (give or take a frame, I remember someone once saying that the grabber suffers 29 frames and the person grabbed suffers 31 but I'm not sure if that's true) and upon air release, the grabber suffers 30 frames of lag whereas the person grabbed suffers 50 frames of lag (provided they don't land)

The exceptions to this are
-Bowser (he suffers only 20 frames of lag when grab releasing someone) = +10 advantage upon grab releasing for Bowser
-DK (he suffers only 20 frames upon being ground grab released) = +10 advantage upon being ground grab released for DK
-Jigglypuff (she suffers 49 frames of lag upon air grab release...lol)
-Ness/Lucas (these guys suffer 40 frames of lag upon being ground grab released) = -10 advantage upon ground grab releasing for Ness/Lucas

...but that means that we get a +10 advantage upon ground grab releasing them (40 - 30 = 10)

Unfortunately, since we only have 10 frames, I wouldn't have thought it'd be possible to get an Up Smash in considering Up Smash's first hit comes out on frame 14...maybe that's why we've been getting mixed results since it's only off by 4 frames
Although, I'm not factoring in the frames needed to start moving in order for the Up Smash to actually connect


Does anyone know how much of a frame advantage DeDeDe has upon using D Throw on a CGable character? It must be a lot more than 10 if he can not only running regrab characters (and he has to run quite a bit to regrab some characters) but also buffer an Up Smash into some characters since his Up Smash comes out on frame 20

I suggest you get someone else like hotgarbage to check all of this stuff cause I could very well be wrong with my info (it'd be much more reliable coming from somebody else )
I'm just gonna stick to Air release --> Fair for now since I'm not sure if getting an Up Smash would be 100% guaranteed

Grab release --> Up Smash could however be a nasty surprise for the Ness/Lucas player if they aren't expecting it and it could also be a real threat to Lucas since Peach doesn't really have any finishers out of a grab release on him



And I will always be there to question it and be an annoying **** in general <3

nah but it's good someone is testing this stuff and generating potentially useful stuff

Ok, I'm confused here. Does Peach have grab release shenanigans on Ness and Lucas from air release too? Because I've always heard that Peach can do the same thing to Ness and Lucas that she does to Wario (air release---> u-smash), but it has never worked for me.

Just to clarify, Peach can do stuff to Wario only out of air release, and on Ness/Lucas only out of ground release? Is that correct?

From what you're saying it sounds like DK has some sort of reverse ground release (10 less frames of lag than the grabber) on everyone. Is that true? xD

Thanks in advance!

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Ok, I'm confused here. Does Peach have grab release shenanigans on Ness and Lucas from air release too? Because I've always heard that Peach can do the same thing to Ness and Lucas that she does to Wario (air release---> u-smash), but it has never worked for me.

Just to clarify, Peach can do stuff to Wario only out of air release, and on Ness/Lucas only out of ground release? Is that correct?

From what you're saying it sounds like DK has some sort of reverse ground release (10 less frames of lag than the grabber) on everyone. Is that true? xD

Thanks in advance!

Peach has an air release --> Fair on Ness (the timing is extremely strict though, you have to buffer jump Fair and left/right altogether) but nothing out of an air release on Lucas as far as I'm aware. I'm pretty certain she can't get an Up Smash on those two

And yea DK suffers less lag when he is ground grab released so if you grab DK make sure you throw him

 

[Zekeishere]

Squirtle also only has 28 frames of lag after grab releasing someone. But has 32 frames after being grab released. (I THINK)

And in that sense, You... can't gr -> U smash ness/lucas.

 

[Razmakazi]

gotta take the dash and run into account in which case it doesn't but if you buffer dash and buffer jump and buffer the ground float and the fair then it works on squirtle.