Roy vs ganon

[TheGoat]

Ganon just lolcancels all of roys attacks and respons with jab/ftilt. Then he wins the war of attrition. Am I right, or I just haven't played enough good roys?

 

[Ripple]

You've not played against any real roy players

 

[TheGoat]

You've not played against any real roy players

Teach me the way, johny bravo. I guess space attacks better and get behind his shield? I know roy is definitely a lot faster than ganon.

 

[darkoblivion12]

I haven't played against ganons in a while, but generally Roy has superior movement and grab game. Work around his fairs and try to dtilt him while he's landing. Also Roy's fair is faster than Ganon's so you can beat him in the air if you know he's going to fair. The matchup is really precise and if you **** up you die. Also DED3 down is pretty good against CC.

 

[exarch]

Counter all of his attacks that aren't grabs. GG stay free ganon.

 

[-ACE-]

Ganon def wins the matchup. probably a tad worse than 60/40 imo (for those who like numbers)

 

[BTmoney]

ganon is free

if he goes for any aerial DD grab it
if he wants to play footsies with you he should flat out lose
if he refuses to jump or approach dtilt

do not engage him in the air

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ganon just lolcancels all of roys attacks and respons with jab/ftilt. Then he wins the war of attrition. Am I right, or I just haven't played enough good roys?

Ganon can lolcancel grabs?

 

[low tier user]

Roy could counter Ganondorfs strong attacks and even his meteor smash.

 

[Dark Lady]

Roy could counter Ganondorfs strong attacks and even his meteor smash.

No. No he can't. Counter is heavily punishable, and I, for one, would not want to hand Ganon a free FSmash. Or DSmash. Or USmash. Or Grab...

Yeah, just don't.

 

[low tier user]

No. No he can't. Counter is heavily punishable, and I, for one, would not want to hand Ganon a free FSmash. Or DSmash. Or USmash. Or Grab...

Yeah, just don't.

Yeah but if you exploit it well you can have quite an advantage over Ganon.

 

[Dark Lady]

Yeah but if you exploit it well you can have quite an advantage over Ganon.

Risk vs. Reward. And in most situations, it's way too risky.

Like, say you're playing against a Jigglypuff. You learned to read your opponent and know how to predict his rest. Then you counter right when you think he/she will do it. If you were successful, then yay! Countered rest! Bye puff!

But that window is so slim, if you missed (which is the more likely scenario when countering) Jiggs rests you and you die.

The same with Ganon. You can read his smashes and stuff, and learn your opponent, but whiffing your counter = Tons of Damage for Ganon. And when countering, the ball is 9/10 on your opponent's side of the court, and the higher quality the player, the more advantage he/she will have vs your counter and the more likely you will whiff and get combo'd/killed.

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Scratch that, you can't even counter rest. XD. 100 Risk >0 Reward.

 

[low tier user]

Risk vs. Reward. And in most situations, it's way too risky.

Like, say you're playing against a Jigglypuff. You learned to read your opponent and know how to predict his rest. Then you counter right when you think he/she will do it. If you were successful, then yay! Countered rest! Bye puff!

But that window is so slim, if you missed (which is the more likely scenario when countering) Jiggs rests you and you die.

The same with Ganon. You can read his smashes and stuff, and learn your opponent, but whiffing your counter = Tons of Damage for Ganon. And when countering, the ball is 9/10 on your opponent's side of the court, and the higher quality the player, the more advantage he/she will have vs your counter and the more likely you will whiff and get combo'd/killed.[/quoly You actually have facts backing up what you say instead of just opinion. I get what you're saying but if you see what he's doing before he completes the move, you can counter him. Jiggpuffs rest, on the other hand, is just based on pure luck.

 

[Dark Lady]

You actually have facts backing up what you say instead of just opinion. I get what you're saying but if you see what he's doing before he completes the move, you can counter him. Jiggpuffs rest, on the other hand, is just based on pure luck.

And now, actual fact time! :D

Dis here be Roy's countah.


*Click here if the img link is not working
The actual counter is on frames 8-20. The full animation is 59 frames, and has no IASA. So you're on lockdown for almost a full second.

Let's now take a laggish common move out of Ganon's ground arsenal (Not Warlock punch or his utilt. Those take stupid long.)

Dis here be Ganondorf's DSmash

Uncharged, you get 49 frames of animation and attack in front of him starts on frame 19. It also has an IASA on frame 47.


If you counter 2 frames before Ganon DSmashed, You're getting hit with it. If both of you launch at the same time and whiff, he has a +13 frame advantage. You'd have to use a successful counter within 11 frames of him starting his attack at the latest (if my math is right); that's .183 of a second window-ish. So unless you perfectly baited it, you probably won't be able to react in time.

 

[low tier user]

And now, actual fact time! :D

Dis here be Roy's countah.


*Click here if the img link is not working
The actual counter is on frames 8-20. The full animation is 59 frames, and has no IASA. So you're on lockdown for almost a full second.

Let's now take a laggish common move out of Ganon's ground arsenal (Not Warlock punch or his utilt. Those take stupid long.)

Dis here be Ganondorf's DSmash

Uncharged, you get 49 frames of animation and attack in front of him starts on frame 19. It also has an IASA on frame 47.


If you counter 2 frames before Ganon DSmashed, You're getting hit with it. If both of you launch at the same time and whiff, he has a +13 frame advantage. You'd have to use a successful counter within 11 frames of him starting his attack at the latest (if my math is right); that's .183 of a second window-ish. So unless you perfectly baited it, you probably won't be able to react in time.
Yeah, thats about right. Unless you spend time practicing countering his Dair, you probably wont get it right. Well, theres always air dodging. I practice doin that stuff even if it takes a while to get down.

 

[darkoblivion12]

My general idea on counter is that it's unusable unless you're very certain an attack will hit. Throwing them out when an attack might connect is very, very bad and will likely get you killed. Plus the other part of counter is that you lean back. You change where people are likely to aim for, so they miss and get a free punish.

 

[low tier user]

I haven't played against ganons in a while, but generally Roy has superior movement and grab game. Work around his fairs and try to dtilt him while he's landing. Also Roy's fair is faster than Ganon's so you can beat him in the air if you know he's going to fair. The matchup is really precise and if you **** up you die. Also DED3 down is pretty good against CC.

Roy's counter can be used on Ganondorf's Dair, if exploited well.

 

[Dark Lady]

Roy's counter can be used on Ganondorf's Dair, if exploited well.

Back to the frame drawing board.

Remember that Roy's counter does not actually begin until frame 8, lasts twelve frames, and he's locked in for 59 frames; because here we have...

A Ganon that dares to dair! :O

Ganon's Dair can be IASA frame 38, can be auto cancelled to bait a reaction at frame 3, has a max of 44 frames, and L-cancelled for 17 frames of lag
The attack starts on frame 16 and lasts 4 frames.
If you're timing your counter for his dairdevil of an attempt, you have an 8 frame window to start your counter. That's less than 10 frames to react to. and if you bait his dair and preemptively counter, he can just autocancel it, or, with enough height, jump away and smack you upside the face because his move is much shorter lag-wise than yours.

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like, don't think i'm trying to attack you or anything; i'm not. I merely want to let you know that counter is never a reliable move, unless someone is throwing out Falcon/Warlock punches. And no one in high tiered play will ever hand you such an opportunity.

 

[exarch]

Ganons like to jump out of combos and dair. Roy has crappy combos. So combo him into his combobreaker and counter it. Pretty good.

 

[Deleted member]

ganon is free

if he goes for any aerial DD grab it
if he wants to play footsies with you he should flat out lose
if he refuses to jump or approach dtilt

do not engage him in the air

you forgot "don't get chaingrabbed"

but yeah pretty much.

ban YS.

 

[Kadano]

And now, actual fact time! :D

Dis here be Roy's countah.


*Click here if the img link is not working
The actual counter is on frames 8-20. The full animation is 59 frames, and has no IASA. So you're on lockdown for almost a full second.

Let's now take a laggish common move out of Ganon's ground arsenal (Not Warlock punch or his utilt. Those take stupid long.)

Dis here be Ganondorf's DSmash

Uncharged, you get 49 frames of animation and attack in front of him starts on frame 19. It also has an IASA on frame 47.


If you counter 2 frames before Ganon DSmashed, You're getting hit with it. If both of you launch at the same time and whiff, he has a +13 frame advantage. You'd have to use a successful counter within 11 frames of him starting his attack at the latest (if my math is right); that's .183 of a second window-ish. So unless you perfectly baited it, you probably won't be able to react in time.

Nice layout, but how did you get to the conclusion 11 frames were too short to react? Marth’s fsmash hits in front of him on frame 11, and you can’t tell me players aren’t able to PS or even normal shield it in time. So countering dsmash with Roy should be easily feasible.

 

[Dark Lady]

Nice layout, but how did you get to the conclusion 11 frames were too short to react? Marth’s fsmash hits in front of him on frame 11, and you can’t tell me players aren’t able to PS or even normal shield it in time. So countering dsmash with Roy should be easily feasible.

I said probably wont be able to. Experienced players could, sure, but trying to counter that D-Smash is just not the best option. There are a lot better ones, like wavedashing backwards and punishing it. I only use Roy's counter to edgeguard spacies when they come up predictably.