Sonic is OP

[Tero.]

I agree with most of your post, however sonic is undoubtably the best character in the game at the moment. At least with the amount of knowledge we have right now, and a very limited amount of people willing to experiment with the game since it's all prone to change.

I dont think that sonic is undoubtably the best character in the game at the moment

 

[SAX]

I dont think that sonic is undoubtably the best character in the game at the moment

Really? Interesting. Who would you say rivals him? He seems to have a MK vibe to him imo. His down B has an option coverage for everything applicable in the game. He can gimp extremely well, one of the best recoveries in the game, has ridiculous range on his tilts and knockback (primarily Utilt and Ftilt) has great shield pressure... etc etc. Not saying he is impossible to beat, just like it's not impossible to beat fox or mk, but the ability to do anything out of his down b makes his bait and punish game so absurd.

 

[SAX]

Yes comparing Marth's entire moveset to two moves of Sonic is a great example. From a player standpoint there is nothing wrong with using your best option, however from a design standpoint having two options (actually mostly down-b) outclass all his other options is poor design imo. I'm gonna counter by saying if you can deal with his spindashes purely via MU experience and reaction time than the Sonic is doing it wrong. You have to preemptively throw out a move or shield if you want to beat him out, both options Sonic can abuse by cancelling his spin.

I guess that's one way to look at it, but every character has there mix of good and bad moves. Sonic actually only has ONE good approach, which is downb. I guess you could say side b too, but it doesn't have as much prio has Downb and is only REALLY good vs spacies. IT just so happens that Sonic's downB is one of the best things in the game,haha. I guess both perspectives are pretty open-ended, but wizzy said that the developers are going to make sonic unable to wavedash out of his down b in version 3.0. I think that will fix a lot of the problems people are complaining about, since sonic won't have every option at his fingertips when he uses down b, and there will be more effective ways at punishing it, henceforth. I still want his utilt and his ftilt adjusted too tho -_- that's my main concern hahahha but maybe that's just because I play snake hahah

 

[Solharath]

Yo that ftilt.

It wins games.

 

[Nguz95]

You guys don't know what kind of monster you're dealing with, and the real Ike isn't here to save us

He died in that mental hospital right?

 

[SAX]

Yo that ftilt.

It wins games.

Quoting because he is correct.

 

[whitmorethetoadpirate]

I guess that's one way to look at it, but every character has there mix of good and bad moves. Sonic actually only has ONE good approach, which is downb. I guess you could say side b too, but it doesn't have as much prio has Downb and is only REALLY good vs spacies. IT just so happens that Sonic's downB is one of the best things in the game,haha. I guess both perspectives are pretty open-ended, but wizzy said that the developers are going to make sonic unable to wavedash out of his down b in version 3.0. I think that will fix a lot of the problems people are complaining about, since sonic won't have every option at his fingertips when he uses down b, and there will be more effective ways at punishing it, henceforth. I still want his utilt and his ftilt adjusted too tho -_- that's my main concern hahahha but maybe that's just because I play snake hahah

I don't like the idea that he won't be able to WD out of down b, that's not really what was wrong with it. They didn't remove that option from Ike's QD, they just made it so you couldn't do it till later in the move.

I still agree with Arcalyth's post about balancing it similarly to Ike's QD, but we'll see how it goes.

 

[Sonjicboom]

No WD out of spin dash? That will stymy P:M Sonics to no end. In the mean time, dtilt -> utilt is a fun damage-dealer.

 

[tripp6313]

No WD out of spin dash? That will stymy P:M Sonics to no end. In the mean time, dtilt -> utilt is a fun damage-dealer.

Yea that tends to be a good trend with a lot of characters i've noticed... I kinda like the up throw into fair for sonic... that spike is awesome! or SD full jump into down air is pretty awesome too

 

[Paradoxium]

Really? Interesting. Who would you say rivals him? He seems to have a MK vibe to him imo. His down B has an option coverage for everything applicable in the game. He can gimp extremely well, one of the best recoveries in the game, has ridiculous range on his tilts and knockback (primarily Utilt and Ftilt) has great shield pressure... etc etc. Not saying he is impossible to beat, just like it's not impossible to beat fox or mk, but the ability to do anything out of his down b makes his bait and punish game so absurd.

Well for one I'd say peach has a pretty good chance of winning, that down smash completely destroys spin dash, Mario's fire balls break spin dash as well as we'll as his cape reflects it, luigis wave dash it quick enough to deal with the bait and punish, Marth's decent wave dash and long grab range are also a nightmare for sonic, and pit is quick enough with his air move to also beat sonic, G&W's downtilt also pops sonic off the ground and sets him up. Sonic may be op, but not as absurdly powerful as you people are making it sound.

 

[cannedbread]

sonic is obnoxious*

 

[SAX]

Well for one I'd say peach has a pretty good chance of winning, that down smash completely destroys spin dash, Mario's fire balls break spin dash as well as we'll as his cape reflects it, luigis wave dash it quick enough to deal with the bait and punish, Marth's decent wave dash and long grab range are also a nightmare for sonic, and pit is quick enough with his air move to also beat sonic, G&W's downtilt also pops sonic off the ground and sets him up. Sonic may be op, but not as absurdly powerful as you people are making it sound.

Sonic has options out of ALL of those situations though, bar Luigi. Peach's Dsmash > Jump and homing attack; Marios fireballs > Shield WD shield; G&W Dtilt > jump homing attack. Etc Etc.And are you saying that G&W, Mario, Marth, and Luigi are better characters? Obviously that's not what you said, but that was my case. Sonic is undoubtedly the best character in the game. I don't disagree with you. Sonic is NOT unbeatable. (We've all seen the best sonic [Wizzrobe] get beaten before.) Neither is Fox or MK in melee and brawl, but they stand out as the obvious best character of the game (MK moreso than Fox). However, just because a character is not unbeatable does not mean that character needs to be nerfed in selective ways, or that he isn't the best character.

 

[Paradoxium]

Sonic has options out of ALL of those situations though, bar Luigi. Peach's Dsmash > Jump and homing attack; Marios fireballs > Shield WD shield; G&W Dtilt > jump homing attack. Etc Etc.And are you saying that G&W, Mario, Marth, and Luigi are better characters? Obviously that's not what you said, but that was my case. Sonic is undoubtedly the best character in the game. I don't disagree with you. Sonic is NOT unbeatable. (We've all seen the best sonic [Wizzrobe] get beaten before.) Neither is Fox or MK in melee and brawl, but they stand out as the obvious best character of the game (MK moreso than Fox). However, just because a character is not unbeatable does not mean that character needs to be nerfed in selective ways, or that he isn't the best character.

Well, a jump homing attack probably will stop peaches d smash, but I'm pretty sure G&W can shield fast enough after a down tilt. And WD shielding towards Mario is not an ideal situation, I'm sure Mario players use fireballs to force this type of reaction out of there opponents anyways. Marth and Mario have a good shot at being better than sonic, but we wouldn't know right now in this undeveloped metagame, and just because wizzrobe dominated everyone pretty one sidedly does not mean sonic is op, wizzrobe is a good player, sonic is a good character, and no one has a clear grasp on the meta game vs sonic.
I just don't want a massive nerf that we are all gonna regret just because of one tournament, without his options sonic could turn into pretty ****ty character, they might as well start fresh and completely redesign him.
But a slight nerf would be ok

 

[Juushichi]

if you think GnW is just going to dtilt then just hold spin longer.

That MU is terrible and it's really hard to hit the damn character.

Dtilting Sonic on reaction is hard.

 

[SAX]

Well, a jump homing attack probably will stop peaches d smash, but I'm pretty sure G&W can shield fast enough after a down tilt. And WD shielding towards Mario is not an ideal situation, I'm sure Mario players use fireballs to force this type of reaction out of there opponents anyways. Marth and Mario have a good shot at being better than sonic, but we wouldn't know right now in this undeveloped metagame, and just because wizzrobe dominated everyone pretty one sidedly does not mean sonic is op, wizzrobe is a good player, sonic is a good character, and no one has a clear grasp on the meta game vs sonic.
I just don't want a massive nerf that we are all gonna regret just because of one tournament, without his options sonic could turn into pretty ****ty character, they might as well start fresh and completely redesign him.
But a slight nerf would be ok

I completely agree. If you look on the first page, I agree with a lot of your ideas. I feel like the parts they should nerf are his tilts. Ftilt and Utilt. Both have ******** priority and range. I personally don't mind his spin. It's functional and makes sense for the character and helps sonic enter the melee physics.

 

[Paradoxium]

Yes, those tilts, those tilts, they are... Unforgivable

 

[HeroMystic]

The only thing PMBR should do to his spins is give them a different SFX so people can figure out what spin he's doing. Fortunately, I've played Sonic numerously so I know what his spins are, but it's obnoxious how samey they are.

 

[Solharath]

I dunno, nerfing Sonic's tilts would make Sonic's main priority be to spin all the time, because all of a sudden you are disadvantaged for not spinning. Seeing the complaints, the worst thing you can do is make it so spinning is always the best option.

I think the main nerf Sonic should have is to slow down the refresh on his spin hitboxes. The charging hitbox could stand to be a little slower to allow some sort of fast grab. Right now it seems like the only option is to powershield and jab or hope to be pushed out of it before it pokes you. That's more than a little broken, in my opinion, but everything else is generally fine.

My main concern is nerfing Sonic while buffing others is that you may miss the point of balance, and instead Sonic and [insert character here] may just swap places as who is considered the better character. Every character should be top tier, and I'd consider Sonic to be on par with Fox and Sheik now. Everyone else just needs to be brought there too.

Two cents, you can agree or disagree.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

It doesn't help that his new animations are still spins, just different kinds of spins.

My only real gripe with Sonic is that I find his moves hard to read because all his spins look like the same move before they actually come at me.

This makes it hard for me to choose an option other than to respect it and shield, giving the opponent the advantage.

It doesn't help that he can combo off of what seems to be nothing.

 

[TwicH]

I'm kinda nervous about the next balance update. I really hope they don't remove the ability to WD out of spins. It's not broken, it's just a really good tool.

Besides Sonic I use Link and Snake. They have so many good options to use against Sonic. I don't see why people can't just learn the MU and stop whining...

 

[Kally Wally]

I really hope they don't remove the ability to WD out of spins.

Prepare to be disappointed.

 

[Jacob29]

I'm kinda nervous about the next balance update. I really hope they don't remove the ability to WD out of spins. It's not broken, it's just a really good tool.

Besides Sonic I use Link and Snake. They have so many good options to use against Sonic. I don't see why people can't just learn the MU and stop whining...

Because it is an unfun MU. My friend plays Sonic and he has agreed not to play him if I don't play Falco.

All he does all game is downB into NAir or BAir and I can't do anything. I just have to wait for him to come to me, and me to TRY and punish him with my own nair as mario or somebody else.

It just isn't fun for the non-Sonic player. They are put into a position where we have to wait it out and the game plays to sonic's speed not to yours.

 

[tripp6313]

...

Because it is an unfun MU. My friend plays Sonic and he has agreed not to play him if I don't play Falco.

All he does all game is downB into NAir or BAir and I can't do anything. I just have to wait for him to come to me, and me to TRY and punish him with my own nair as mario or somebody else.

It just isn't fun for the non-Sonic player. They are put into a position where we have to wait it out and the game plays to sonic's speed not to yours.

Dude with Mario its cape to turn him around, fireballs to interrupt, you can actually grab him out of his downB, and after that just juggle him... My roommate does that to me all the time and he's just a beginner and is doing well with it

 

[Jacob29]

So to counter a Sonic who is only doing DownB and NAir you have to time the cape well? and get the right fireball?

Pretty hard to grab him out of DownB when he is doing it on top of me for the damage and knockup.

I can sometimes beat him but it still isnt a FUN win. I have to spam Fireballs to win? That isn't fun man.

 

[tripp6313]

see with cape it sends him back and reverses his controls until he lets go.. and its not so much spam fireballs... its just an option and short hop into Nair and smashes do clash as well which cashes him to be forced to stop... and he is a bit easy to juggle and once you get him off stage you pretty much win with mario's edge guard with proper reads of course... I mean i can see how its not fun... i'm not saying its not because i play a LOT of snake and put up against sonic it does get annoying whenever all my tactics against him are preemptive counters. however for a brighter note 2.6 is coming out either today or tomorrow and sonic will be receiving a nerf to spin dash where he won't be able to wave dash out of it along with probably with some others

 

[SAX]

No WD out of Downb. No Homing attack out of downb. Ftilt knockback reduced. Nair Knockback reduced. Can no longer stay in Downb Spin forever; has a timed release after like 3-4 seconds.

 

[SAX]

I dunno, nerfing Sonic's tilts would make Sonic's main priority be to spin all the time, because all of a sudden you are disadvantaged for not spinning. Seeing the complaints, the worst thing you can do is make it so spinning is always the best option.

I think the main nerf Sonic should have is to slow down the refresh on his spin hitboxes. The charging hitbox could stand to be a little slower to allow some sort of fast grab. Right now it seems like the only option is to powershield and jab or hope to be pushed out of it before it pokes you. That's more than a little broken, in my opinion, but everything else is generally fine.

My main concern is nerfing Sonic while buffing others is that you may miss the point of balance, and instead Sonic and [insert character here] may just swap places as who is considered the better character. Every character should be top tier, and I'd consider Sonic to be on par with Fox and Sheik now. Everyone else just needs to be brought there too.

Two cents, you can agree or disagree.

Honestly I agree. I actually think what they did with his down b (not being able to stay in it forever) was genius. It lets you time things rather than relying purely on reaction time, when down is already so hard to react to for many players. I don't think sonic deserves this much nerf... just the Ftilt and the timing of his downb would have sufficed.

The only thing I disagree with is your initial post. In 2.5b, sonic's only reliable approach IS his spin. His aerials have like no priority on them. Ftilt is mainly used for spacing on the ledge and edge-guarding. Nerfing sonic's tilts would do nothing to sonic's approach method. Sonic has no reliable approach method other than spin. Everything else is sub-par.

 

[whitmorethetoadpirate]

No WD out of Downb. No Homing attack out of downb. Ftilt knockback reduced. Nair Knockback reduced. Can no longer stay in Downb Spin forever; has a timed release after like 3-4 seconds.

Yeah, that's a little ridiculous. I agree with the Ftilt knockback reduction (but by how much?), but reducing Nair's knockback? That's one of his good kill moves, no reason to do that.

Also, why can he not WD out of spin dash? That made him a lot of fun to play and it wasn't really that bad. I didn't fully understand Super's post but now I do. I thought he was saying Sonic should be allowed some sort of fast grab, but I now realize he meant his opponent should be allowed some sort of fast grab. Now that I see that, I completely agree with that post and think that would have been a great idea. Especially when spin dash just wrecked shields.

 

[tripp6313]

meh... new sonic isn't bad at all... actually he's pretty fun still though his killing potential is lower now it feels :/

 

[whitmorethetoadpirate]

meh... new sonic isn't bad at all... actually he's pretty fun still though his killing potential is lower now it feels :/

Alright, I guess that's ok, but I thought his kill power was pretty low anyway. Didn't seem necessary to make it even lower. I haven't had the chance to play the new version yet since I don't have my own Wii to use.

 

[tripp6313]

yea...he definitely was lacking to get to the kill point initially. but his side tilt doesn't kill till way later now and hit side smash is pretty much the go to for low kills now unless really good air game is applied... they removed the out of Side B option however if you hit shield while in side b you now get a stop

 

[TwicH]

I tried out 2.6 Sonic today and I am not happy with what I experienced...

I thought they said they were gonna balance him not give him a heavy nerf. Welp, Meta Knight is pretty fun so I guess I'll pick him up instead.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Sonic is very much more balanced at the moment. He can still jump cancel side B with a regular ground jump or DJ and use fair to get automatic followups. He can't jump cancel it immediately to side B jump side b over and over, and he can't down B freely wherever he wants with impunity. He's just more dedicated when he does actions now instead of being able to cancel cancel. His recovery is in line with similar Melee characters that have stupid fast and controlling on-stage games (Read: Falcon), and his kill power and followups are reflective of how easily he can land hits. Sonic is a touchy design but I do feel that his current incarnation is most reflective of his momentum based style from his games. He only gets to go crazy after getting a hit in the first place, which, as easy as it is for Sonic, isn't so ridiculous that he gets to gain control of the game at the flick of a hat.

 

[Nazo]

Sonic is very much more balanced at the moment. He can still jump cancel side B with a regular ground jump or DJ and use fair to get automatic followups. He can't jump cancel it immediately to side B jump side b over and over, and he can't down B freely wherever he wants with impunity. He's just more dedicated when he does actions now instead of being able to cancel cancel. His recovery is in line with similar Melee characters that have stupid fast and controlling on-stage games (Read: Falcon), and his kill power and followups are reflective of how easily he can land hits. Sonic is a touchy design but I do feel that his current incarnation is most reflective of his momentum based style from his games. He only gets to go crazy after getting a hit in the first place, which, as easy as it is for Sonic, isn't so ridiculous that he gets to gain control of the game at the flick of a hat.

This is what I've been trying to explain to everyone.

 

[whitmorethetoadpirate]

Sonic is very much more balanced at the moment. He can still jump cancel side B with a regular ground jump or DJ and use fair to get automatic followups. He can't jump cancel it immediately to side B jump side b over and over, and he can't down B freely wherever he wants with impunity. He's just more dedicated when he does actions now instead of being able to cancel cancel. His recovery is in line with similar Melee characters that have stupid fast and controlling on-stage games (Read: Falcon), and his kill power and followups are reflective of how easily he can land hits. Sonic is a touchy design but I do feel that his current incarnation is most reflective of his momentum based style from his games. He only gets to go crazy after getting a hit in the first place, which, as easy as it is for Sonic, isn't so ridiculous that he gets to gain control of the game at the flick of a hat.

Man, this reply makes Sonic sound *gasp* balanced!

 

[DireDrop]

I'm really glad that Sonic is more balanced now. Is he still top tier material? In 2.5, the only character that ever gave me trouble was a patiently played bowser. But now that he doesn't have his ridiculous spin game anymore, does he still have an edge on the majority of the cast?

 

[Problem2]

Sonic feels balanced now. His poke and run kind of play style reminds me a lot of Captain Falcon, which is understandable, but not appealing to me. I like characters that create pressure and have a lot of mix-up potential. I guess I'll be switching to Diddy Kong or Fox.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Sonic is by no means poke and run. That's what he was in 2.1. He also isn't faceroll for free pressure no matter what the opponent does. That's what he was in 2.5. You're right to say he's like Falcon, but wrong as to what regard that's true. Sonic can still reap great rewards off hits (Flub fair now sets up for other aerials, for example), he just has to get a solid hit in the first place and then, no pun intended, roll with the momentum form it. He's at a much better character design at the moment than he has been in previous builds.