Spike

[Mr.Random]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6msKCpYHEI Notice how Marth has always had bread and butter kills with forward air to dair? Well Roy can do the same thing only it's much harder to because of the risk so it's not worth it since it's a meteor snd your falling speed. Look at 5:32, I find that extremely unfair that Roy gets an awesome fire sweetspot which is hard to land off stage that doesn't spike. Soon after 5:32 M2K spikes him with down air. Please for the love of god make Roy's down air a spike . I hate that the only utility the down air sweetspot has is down tilt to dair at early percents. I think this change would make it worth the risk to go for a fair to dair because there is nothing more satisfying then landing a fire spike as a reward for taking a risk, if you miss you die.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I hate that the only utility the down air sweetspot has is down tilt to dair at early percents..

That's just not true.

 

[Blade-Fox]

You're trying to use a meteor like a true spike. Use a meteor like a meteor.

 

[Foxy K]

How viable is ledge hop to dair? Seems like it would never sweetspot unless they overshot the edge by quite a bit/just the right amount.

 

[Blade-Fox]

How viable is ledge hop to dair? Seems like it would never sweetspot unless they overshot the edge by quite a bit/just the right amount.

It works but only if you force them to overshoot it (they're recovering and you have ledge + invincibility for example). Depending on who it is though, they may meteor cancel it and get back.

 

[G13_Flux]

youre trying to compare marth and roy too much. roy has sooo many more kill options ONSTAGE than marth does its actually not even funny. onstage, marth has fsmash (decent kill move unless at the edge), and utilt (only at high percents). roy has fsmash (amazing kill move), bair (killing reliably at medium percents), DED (mid percents), dair (on floaties for relatively low percent star KO, or on platforms for low %), counter (low-mid %s near edge), flare blade (higher percents at middle of stage uncharged). AND roy can combo directly into almost all of these moves. Overall he has way more options than marth in terms of killing, and many of his options kill at the same percents that the ken combo does (character dependent), except onstage.

 

[FlashingFire]

Ledgehop Dair is useful for more than just attempting to meteor the opponent. It can also pop them up for a Flare Blade or, if you hit with the outermost hitbox, send them away at a semi-spike angle.

 

[Foxy K]

youre trying to compare marth and roy too much. roy has sooo many more kill options ONSTAGE than marth does its actually not even funny. onstage, marth has fsmash (decent kill move unless at the edge), and utilt (only at high percents). roy has fsmash (amazing kill move), bair (killing reliably at medium percents), DED (mid percents), dair (on floaties for relatively low percent star KO, or on platforms for low %), counter (low-mid %s near edge), flare blade (higher percents at middle of stage uncharged). AND roy can combo directly into almost all of these moves. Overall he has way more options than marth in terms of killing, and many of his options kill at the same percents that the ken combo does (character dependent), except onstage.

Which is all well and good but the dair sweet spot is really sexy so I want to know the best ways to kill with it. But, as you just showed, it's basically his least potent kill option, which probably contributes to the sexiness.

 

[Mr.Random]

Why did they decide not to make it a spike? It's an honest question. Can a PMBR member answer?

 

[Yurya]

Why did they decide not to make it a spike? It's an honest question. Can a PMBR member answer?

Not PMBR, but Spikes are not simply better than Meteors. Spikes are better at Killing Offstage while Meteors have much better combo utility onstage. Each has its own niches to fill.
Between Marth and Roy, Marth needs the Spike because of his otherwise lacking Kill game while Roy can easily Kill and can make more use of a meteor onstage to combo.
If you want to Spike use Marth flashier combos Roy.

 

[Foxy K]

I don't understand what properties about a meteor make it more usable to combo onstage.

 

[Phoenix502]

Meteor Smashes and spikes are primarily different in that meteor smashes will more or less send you straight down, but a mechanic that both Melee and Brawl have, called meteor cancelling, allow you to recover if you don't have enough damage to get KOed immediately... and while PM doesn't have it yet, Melee had a sound effect play when you did a Meteor Cancel.

Spikes are similar to meteor smashes, in that they'll send you downward, but they either strike somewhat weak or send you at an awkward enough angle (like down and just enough to the side) that the game won't register as a meteor smash, and thus, you can't immediately rebound with a meteor cancel.

more often than not, Meteor smashes are used for combos because if you're on the ground, you get launched up instead of down. and since meteor cancelling only works going down, you'll still be stuck in the hitstun of something that packs quite a punch. a good example is Falcon's Dair to Knee combo, you're launched upward, still stuck in hitstun, and a fast enough player can follow up with a Knee before you can move.

okay, I know it's a bit long winded, but that's primarily how I look at it...

 

[FlashingFire]

Also, Meteors that connect on a grounded opponent do 80% of the knockback but 100% of the hitstun, meaning the opponent is often close enough for you to take your time positioning your follow-up of choice.

 

[G13_Flux]

spikes only have combo utility at low percents, after that, simple DI kills any potential for combo. The only exception to this is really falco, but his huge jumps and combo options are really designed around this. other characters very rarely see use from an onstage spike as it really just allows the opponent to get knocked far enough away that they have good chance to get back positioning. I guarentee you that PMBR member will tell you that they werent trying to make another marth, so they focussed more on roys advantages from melee and further streamlined his moveset, building up from there. With so many other kill options onstage, roy brings out a much different flavor contributing to increased MU dynamics, further differentiating his place in the cast from marth. learn to combo into his fsmash and bair, and you will soon realize that roy really doesnt even need a spike. A spike would be a little bit of overkill.

 

[Foxy K]

Thanks guys, I didn't know all those minute details about meteors OR spikes. That should help me quite a bit.