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Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 16 - Sheik - Hayabusa Heroes

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
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Welcome to the Sheik matchup discussion.

Falco and Sheik.png

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from the Sheik Frame Data thread by @Aeralfos and the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character threads.

As of patch 1.1.4.
Move Hit Frames|:4falco:|:4sheik:
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|2-3, 7-9, (infinite), (finisher)
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|5-6 or 7-8
Ftilt|6-8|5-8
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|5-8, 19-23
Dtilt|7-9|5-6
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|12-12, 26-27
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|11-11, 14-15
Down Smash|7-9|11-12, 18-19
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|3-6 or 7-30
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|5-7
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|4-6 or 7-14
Uair|7-11|4-15, (3 more hits), 23-24
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|15-18 or 19-33
Grab|8-9|6-7
Dash Grab|10-11|8-9
Pivot Grab|11-12|9-10
 
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Sheik is fast.

Her needles are fast, she follows up her attacks fast, she can combo us like crazy, and it's tough to gimp her with that teleport of her's.

What's her priority compared to ours? Do we have anything that dents her game plan of racking up damage on us and juggling us off the stage? Lasers are practically not good options at all here, and Reflector will only work if we reflect needles on reaction, which is only gonna happen from a distance. Otherwise, she could block it and ruin us with the endlag.

Do any of our aerials beat her? I know she's got a sicknasty uair, along with that fair that combos into itself, and even her dair is Sonic-tier IIRC.

Also, what are likely customs she'd use? Any chance of our customs tipping the scales even slightly like, say, Fast Fire Bird and Void Reflector?

There, some questions that need to be answered. I've fought Sheiks but not with Falco, something I'll fix soon enough.
 

Ffamran

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First off, priority is apparently not thing at all; it's a made up term according to @Lavani. This is all on you, buddy. :p

Anyway, disjoints are what priority really is
. So, Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's Side Smashes for example are disjointed, so while it looks like say, Mario isn't in their range, they're actually hitting him "indirectly". For Falco, I know his Fair is disjointed and his Dtilt is because tails, wings - not Falco's arms -, swords and such are disjointed. I don't know about Sheik, but I think her Fair might be.

Edit: Priority exists, but not on this weird sense of X's moveset out-prioritizes Y's moveset. More detailed info here: http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Priority.

In this MU, I think it's a bit like against Fox and Sonic which we'll cover later. Fox, Sheik, and Sonic can rack up damage fast, but Falco's damage per hit is better than theirs. None of them want to trade with most of Falco's moves. So, Sheik has to constantly apply pressure on Falco and never let him catch a break which is sort of easy since Falco's disadvantaged state is horrible compared to Sheik's and pretty much everyone not a heavyweight, has a fast Nair, or can escape easily. At neutral, I think Sheik has a edge, especially in the air since aside from Nair and Bair, Falco's slower and even then, Falco's Nair doesn't have that much range on Sheik's Nair. For their advantage states, it's either even or in Falco's favor since Falco will have no trouble killing while Sheik has less options to kill with. Here's the thing, Sheik can setup kills and get near kill percents fast while Falco just kills at the right percent.

Sheik never wants to let Falco or anyone for that matter live past 150%. That's a sign of, "I don't know how to get that kill." A good Sheik should kill and/or gimp Falco below that, especially since if she can drag Falco far and deep enough and destroy his second jump which everyone should be saving, he won't be able to recover even with Distant Fire Bird. A Falco or Fox near the ledge using (Distant) Fire Bird or Fox is a free stage spike. Fast Fire Bird is safer, but Falco needs to not go too deep or get screwed over when knocked off stage. A well-timed Burst Grenade will wreck Falco since he isn't invincible and doesn't have a hitbox for Falco Phantasm or the customs. Falco Phantasm and Phase going past Burst Grenade and landing on the stage means free punish because of the end lag.

One thing Sheik can do faster than Falco is Jab cancel. Sheik can Jab to Utilt, Ftilt, Dtilt, and grab. Maybe Jab to Side Smash? I don't know since I didn't test it, but that means she can hit confirm or mix up her jabs. Falco can sort of do this with his Jab, but it's slower and I wouldn't be surprised if Sheik can Jab or Nair interrupt. I'm not sure on Sheik's throws, but Falco mileage out of pretty much all of his throws, especially D- and U-throw.

Fire Rolling - inputting down or diagonally down with Fire Fox/Bird and its customs - with Fast Fire Bird might not be a good idea because of Sheik's speed, but Fire Sliding might be workable if someone can figure out the exact angle and pull it off consistently. Falco will just land at idle and slide because of Fast Fire Bird's momentum. That said, it's probably safer than using Falco Phantasm to chase Sheik.

That's all I got since I don't fight a lot of Sheiks.
 
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NotAnAdmin

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Shiek has everything Falco doesn't like in one indecisive MU.

-Faster projectiles, can force Falco to approach
-Quick mobility in general, amazing air game
-Can rushdown Falco and juggle him with ftilts and fairs and grabs into at least 50% due to fall speed and even potentially gimp if near the edge
-Her uair grab reset technique that chains into itself and racks up damage way too quickly


Falco does more damage on average, but the main issue is getting close and not getting left in the dust by Shiek's speed.
Overall, an uphill battle, I would opt for switching to C. Falcon.
65-35
 
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Legato

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I am afraid to say that I mostly have negative things to say about this MU. I played M2K's Sheik on FG for 2 hours a little while back with my Falco, didn't think it was him until I saw his ledge game. Yes... it was him.

Perhaps it was the vast difference in skill, but I would argue that a great Sheik can best Falco's gimp game any day. Sheik is just too fast, and that is a big issue. The thing is that by 70% if his sheik ever got me to the ledge of a stage, then it was near impossible to recover. Sheik's fair is just too fast. he would actually grab the ledge and wait for me which resulted in 2 situations. I could either use phantasm and try to recover above the ledge or sweet spot the ledge, but then M2k would react to it and drop off the ledge into bair or nair (he never missed the reaction...period). Phantasm is useless to sheik because we can't shorten it. This took a lot from our recovery mind games, but phantasm does have a use on battlefield where there are platforms to dampen the punishes (I never reaped the benefits though as we played on FG).
If I recovered low, then he would stage spike me, without fail. If I got the tech he would quickly move back to the ledge and punish accordingly with bair/nair/fair which he had plenty of time to do. Sometimes he would just teleport after the tech and still catch me in a second stage spike. I still cannot see any option that would have kept me in the game. He also used her needles to take away my second jump or delay my phantasm and force me into a low recovery up-b, which promptly would end in a stage spike. Recovering low was a big NO on this MU. I found that I could survive by recovering high because he would make a mistake, but he always could punish my landings in the end.

When I tried to gimp him, he would always use her needles to stop fair, teleport, then punish me to death, so I seldom tried gimping after that. He would even trade hits with Sheik's teleport, which unfortunately ends badly for falco if a Sheik can time it well. She just has so much stage control that it's crazy hard to deal with her.

I admit, I am nowhere near M2K's level, and he is someone very experienced with gimping Falco. Still, I must say, trying to gimp a good sheik=very risky, but not impossible I am sure. I sure as heck never gimped M2K in our matches. He seldom two stocked me though, which I considered a win lol. I almost always took the stock using dtilt, usmash, and bair which kill relatively early since Sheik is so light.

In summary, recover high and you get punished. Recover low and you get punished. Air dodging from high recovery just isn't possible with Sheik because her fair is so fast. If you air dodge, she can go into another fair before you can air dodge again. There is no reason for Sheik not to approach you in the air. I tried fair, but M2K always reacted to it because it came out too slow. Same issue with dair. Furthermore, falco has no horizontal movement while in the air, so it is just disastrous if a good sheik gets you in the air, which she can do easily with about 50% of her moves (utilt, ftilt, dtilt, grab, fair, uair, usmash). Maybe fast-fall fair can work, but it seems way too risky and I never profited from it. Bair is your best bet, but he never went behind me for that reason alone and Falco lacks the tools outside of neutral to position an Sheik into the bair.

HOWEVER; in neutral game I did have some success. Combos off of utilt and nair actually did happen because Sheik does have to space a little close to you sometimes. I also challenged his fair with my fair and won. The main issue is Sheik's f-tilt. If M2K and any sheik for that matter manages an f-tilt on me, it is pain city straight to 50-60% without fail. M2K typically could position to the ledge off of one mistake by using his f-tilt combos, and as you can imagine it typically meant death at that point. In contrast, if I did manage a hit, I usually got a good 40-50% on Sheik myself (this includes M2K's sheik) and this was at a time where my falco's punish game was in its infancy. Still, good luck getting that punish. Sheik is just overall very, very safe. I had to do hard reads for those punishes. Make them respect the bair and dtilt. Those seem to be the best tools against Sheik because of their spacing. Dtilt is pretty good since it usually combos into fair/bair. Her combo game definitely depends heavily on her getting within those hit box range, so just make it as difficult as possible for her to get in by using those.

Pre M2K, I placed the MU at 40;60 Sheik's favor. After my matches with M2K, it felt more like 30:70. But, then again, I am not at that competitive level, so take it skeptically. I just don't use Falco against Sheik anymore. I prefer Link or Fox for this one.

Sorry about the wall of text! Good luck on this MU, it is truly an uphill battle.
 
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Dagon97

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Falco's shine outranges fair I belive so that could be used. On the downside is that Falco is gimp food for sheik.
 

Dark Dire Wolf

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I just fought a decent Sheik. There's no moment to punish her! She's hit you and is out of range, Falco's just too slow. I really agree with Legato's assessment.
 
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Ffamran

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A competent Sheik will be trouble no matter what MU, but a Sheik on Zex's level is hard to find. Most Sheiks might not be troublesome, especially if they're cookie cutter ones or rookie ones who don't really know what they're doing which makes Sheik's killing issues even more emphasized as unlike Mario, Link, or Villager, she can't spam buttons and land easy kills. Sheik needs to play smart and her ability to gimp, continually pressure, make on the fly decisions takes a lot of skill.

Anyway, we could/should still study Steelsburg's Falco and Mr. Game & Watch vs. Shaperr's Sheik and Mr. Game & Watch, Domino vs. Neighbor, Liquid vs. Zex, and Kato's Falco and Bowser vs. Zex.
 
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Legato

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Zex definitely plays very well. Liquid could have punished some of those burst grenades with a SH phantasm since Zex was becoming a little too liberal with them. It looks like spacing with dtilt and ftilts work to some degree. It looks like using reflector might work when sheik is in the air, otherwise I see a lot of punishes happening in the videos and against myself in this MU.

In two of these videos I notice that Falco tries to read the roll but just can't reach sheik in time. Phantasm would cover this distance and potentially combo to bair, so maybe that would work better than trying the dash attack? Teching is a must when recovering from the bottom of the stage. I dread that ftilt-->fair string that they do, happens all the time to me. I haven't tested this, but when sheik moves off-stage to reach us, I think a fair before using the double jump might remove any threat off stage when they go too deep. Very situational, but I think it would have aided one of these falco's in one of the posted videos. This MU is just really tough for Falco. Perhaps fair also shuts down bouncing fish though? I'll have to double check, but I think it would contest it quite well.

I have had some success with utilt--->nair on Sheiks since she does fall rather fast. Also, dtilt--->fair is imperative to be able to land in this MU, we need all of the damage we can get and it is a true combo at many percents (I believe 30-60 in this MU). Frame trapping will not happen much, but our best chance is through nair-->dtilt/utilt etc. Lasers are a must for edge guarding as well and I have had some success with reflector in this area. Falco will likely reach rage, so dtilt will kill at a reasonable % in this MU. It looks like if we trade 10% for every 20% received that we might stand a good chance at taking the first stock actually thanks to rage.
 

NotAnAdmin

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Perhaps fair also shuts down bouncing fish though? I'll have to double check, but I think it would contest it quite well.
I've seen the fair get smacked by the bouncing fish many times. It seems to be one of the few moves that completely ignores it.
Still though check it out, I could be wrong, possibly you can "outspace" it in the air with the disjoint hitbox.
 

Ffamran

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Snipnigth

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Shiek is much faster than falco, but she has a hard time killing, she can combo us fairly well, but we can combo her too, its a stressful matchup for Falco but not imposible, the way i like to play agains her is letting her approach me and punish her wifs, or shilding her fairs and punishing with grab dash atack or bair/usmash out of shield, a lot of sheiks start their combos with ftilts, if you shield it while giving the back to her then you can hit her with a guaranteed bair out of shield, but you have to be fast with it so you catch her before her ftilt animation is done.....basically just play safe if she cant land a smash on you or a bouncing fish shes not gonna be able to kill you until your in like 180%, make her whif and punish that and master you oos options falco has some really good oos options.

P.S: Lasers in this matchup are fairly good actually, they have longer range than sheiks needles, you can also use them to trade hits with her needels, but dont use it in the range of her bouncing fish because she can jump over the laser with it and hit you.
 
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Spark31

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Shiek is much faster than falco, but she has a hard time killing, she can combo us fairly well, but we can combo her too, its a stressful matchup for Falco but not imposible, the way i like to play agains her is letting her approach me and punish her wifs, or shilding her fairs and punishing with grab dash atack or bair/usmash out of shield, a lot of sheiks start their combos with ftilts, if you shield it while giving the back to her then you can hit her with a guaranteed bair out of shield, but you have to be fast with it so you catch her before her ftilt animation is done.....basically just play safe if she cant land a smash on you or a bouncing fish shes not gonna be able to kill you until your in like 180%, make her whif and punish that and master you oos options falco has some really good oos options.

P.S: Lasers in this matchup are fairly good actually, they have longer range than sheiks needles, you can also use them to trade hits with her needels, but dont use it in the range of her bouncing fish because she can jump over the laser with it and hit you.
As a Sheik main, I can say that the usual Sheik mentality is make your opponent approach you, so it will be fairly difficult to do so. Lasers are fairly easy to perfect shield and needles make your (falco's) own approach game extremely difficult. Also, most sheiks like to initiate combos with f throw, not f tilt (at low percent it can combo into grab but this is rare). Shielding fair isn't always the best option either, as if you attempt to shield grab, and sheik properly spaced the fair and follows up with jab, it is impossible for any character to shield grab her. Also, you underestimate the kill options sheik has. Most sheiks can at least get the kill at around 130%, usually with and up air or something to that extent. Especially if she's in rage. She also likes baiting opponents out and then going for a vanish, going for rising storm -> bouncing fish (A guaranteed combo from needles to bouncing fish essentially... One of her best kill options), and going for stage trump bair if she has stage control.
 

Snipnigth

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As a Sheik main, I can say that the usual Sheik mentality is make your opponent approach you, so it will be fairly difficult to do so. Lasers are fairly easy to perfect shield and needles make your (falco's) own approach game extremely difficult. Also, most sheiks like to initiate combos with f throw, not f tilt (at low percent it can combo into grab but this is rare). Shielding fair isn't always the best option either, as if you attempt to shield grab, and sheik properly spaced the fair and follows up with jab, it is impossible for any character to shield grab her. Also, you underestimate the kill options sheik has. Most sheiks can at least get the kill at around 130%, usually with and up air or something to that extent. Especially if she's in rage. She also likes baiting opponents out and then going for a vanish, going for rising storm -> bouncing fish (A guaranteed combo from needles to bouncing fish essentially... One of her best kill options), and going for stage trump bair if she has stage control.
your rigth, but i belive that a falco with good reflexes can fight in eaqual ground with sheik, its true that falcos lasers are easy to shield but he same can be said for sheiks needels, flaco can also shot a laser at the same time she throws them, its a good trade if they are not completely charged since falcos laser do more damage than non charged needels...falco has a lot of tools to work around her and can kill earlier than her...sheiks upsmashes, bouncing fish and uairs, are really easy to evade if you know they are coming and you kinda know when a shiek is trying to get the kill on you, most of the times im playing vs sheik i get to around +160% before she can ko me.....its a really hard matchup for falco thats true, you have to make a lot of oos punishes and a lot of mindgames to make her wif and make mistakes, but with practice and fast reactions ill say its almost even, almost..
 

TheReflexWonder

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I have never played this matchup in any significant capacity, but I've been playing a lot of Falco in the past couple weeks, so I feel invested in this discussion.

I would imagine that having so many pokes that can reasonably challenge/outrange pokes of Sheik's does a lot of good in a way that most other characters can't match. Does Falco get punished when hitting a jumping Sheik with Down-B? How does Falco Jab match up against Sheik Jab/tilts? Falco up-angled F-Tilt vs. Sheik F-Air? Does Dash Attack have the range and speed to do useful things against a shorthopping Sheik that chooses to retreat?

Falco's Down-B helps to mitigate the monster that is Sheik's Neutral-B, even if it only ends up hitting Sheik for 2%. It can also let you safely poke at Bouncing Fish recoveries, right?
 

Ffamran

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I have never played this matchup in any significant capacity, but I've been playing a lot of Falco in the past couple weeks, so I feel invested in this discussion.
A2's been arguing that Falco doesn't struggle against Sheik as much as other characters similarly to Kirby. Kind of makes sense since both of them hit pretty hard and fast which could turn rage on Sheik players who don't have a fine grasp on her yet.

I would imagine that having so many pokes that can reasonably challenge/outrange pokes of Sheik's does a lot of good in a way that most other characters can't match. Does Falco get punished when hitting a jumping Sheik with Down-B? How does Falco Jab match up against Sheik Jab/tilts? Falco up-angled F-Tilt vs. Sheik F-Air? Does Dash Attack have the range and speed to do useful things against a shorthopping Sheik that chooses to retreat?
Depends, did you miss? If you miss with Reflector and Accele-Reflector - don't know why'd you use this custom against her -, you can't act until frame 51 while missing with Reflector Void means you can't act until frame 65. It's not safe on shield, so if a Sheik empty hops into shield, she's likely going to be able to punish him. Now, if it hits, only Reflector and Reflector Void would be safe since Accele-Reflector doesn't have that much knockback for its startup of 9 frames.

Jab is weird. Falco leans in and swipes which ends up giving him more horizontal and vertical range than Fox not to mention that he's slightly taller. Don't now exactly how much range it has compared to Sheik. Seeing as both Sheik and Falco have frame 2 jabs and knowing Falco, Fox, Captain Falcon, Sheik, etc. or anyone with a frame 1 to 3 jab can clank with each other and jab through each other, it's probably going to be this silly jab fest between the too except Sheik can act out of her jab faster than Falco - thanks, Brawl to Smash 4 changes.

Don't know about angled Ftilt vs. Sheik's Fair - blame the 3DS's Circle Pad. I could see Falco using Utilt or Up Smash to punish mis-spaced Fairs, but the question is how he gets under her and away from Fair's hitbox. Dtilt has the same range as Ftilt or even slightly more because of the disjoint at the end. Falco could out-space her with that - GimR's the only Falco I know that uses perfect pivot Dtilts and that could be a thing Falco could use to punish bum rushes. For Dash Attack, probably not. You've got an average speed Dash Attack on a character whose running speed is below average. It can punish rolls since it's slow and lingers for a bit, but for Sheik emptying hopping around. He'd need to be precise. Really wished his Dash Attack was frame 6 at the most or hell, swap with Fox since Fox abuses his frame 4 Dash Attack with his running speed.

Falco's Down-B helps to mitigate the monster that is Sheik's Neutral-B, even if it only ends up hitting Sheik for 2%. It can also let you safely poke at Bouncing Fish recoveries, right?
Reflector and its customs are all transcendent, so probably, but I don't know if Bouncing Fish makes Sheik invincible or partially invincible. I remember Lavani mentioning something about it... Maybe it was the disjoint. That said, Falco would be putting in a transcendent disjoint out, so that might not matter. Same if he could snipe her with Blaster. Side Smash's also transcendent, but it's really slow, so there's that.
 

BlueBirdE

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Edgeguarding wise, hows falcos fair and dair? I can see those 2 moves with the active hitbox catching sheiks up b on ledge and even a spaced fair on bouncing fish.
 

Snipnigth

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Edgeguarding wise, hows falcos fair and dair? I can see those 2 moves with the active hitbox catching sheiks up b on ledge and even a spaced fair on bouncing fish.
Its better not to challenge sheiks upb, its better to read her wake up when coming on stage, the only way to hit her out of her upb, its to hit her at the start of her animation before her invincibility starts, Sometimes i grab the edge and wait for her to up b, if shes close its easy to hit her out of it with bair, if shes far, its gonna be harder to reach in time... hope i helped...(I play a lot vs sheiks, 3 of my friends main her).
 

A2ZOMG

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The best way to edgeguard Sheik is to N-air, honestly. Should often beat bouncing fish, and it's easy to time on her ledge snap given it's a nice fast lingering hitbox. Not too unrealistic to KO her offstage with this move. imo this is an important reason why Falco does pretty well in this matchup: actually good edgeguard tools.

I think Falco's ground game and generally improved utility from buffed N-air speak for themselves in this matchup, not to mention lasers and reflector (default is best in this matchup due to its speed) are pretty unique options for dealing with Needles.
 
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BlueBirdE

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I definitely have to try nair out. I feel taking full advantage of our off stage game is important despite the risks. Been experimenting combos and I think dthrow perfect pivot utilt can have its uses. Cant properly test without actual opponent but if we can truly link this we can get even more output out of our throws.
 
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Attila_

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Edgeguard sheik offstage? Not sure if srs.

Bouncing fish and Vanish are invincible, and her fair beats everything we have from the front.

If you're able to edgeguard, you're versing a terrible sheik.

Instead, we can pin her to the ledge pretty well. Keep her from regaining stage control.
 

A2ZOMG

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Edgeguard sheik offstage? Not sure if srs.

Bouncing fish and Vanish are invincible, and her fair beats everything we have from the front.

If you're able to edgeguard, you're versing a terrible sheik.

Instead, we can pin her to the ledge pretty well. Keep her from regaining stage control.
False. Bouncing Fish is only invincible at the very beginning and can be challenged with lingering hitboxes.

Vanish IS invincible but Falco has one of the more reliable aerials for hitting the 1 frame ledge snap window with Nair. Especially if you Dsmash Sheik offstage she like basically anyone else will eat a Nair at minimum as she returns as long as you react correctly.

This is in addition to his Usmash generally being amazing for edgetraps due to its lingering frames, which is nice in all matchups.

Sheik Fair is strong, but it is still worth trying to throw out Nair to intercept it or whiff punish. It's not exactly hard to disrupt her spacing this way and exchange favorably.
 
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pbjezgoud

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I honestly think this matchup is not as 'bad' as most think. I will say, however, it is a tough one.

In my experience, I've been able to take advantage of a lot of Sheik's aerial moves. A lot of Sheiks will Fair into a combo. Sheild grabbing has helped a lot with getting off a few of Falco's combos and avoiding Sheik's.

Aside from that, Falco's reflector is a great aerial option when approaching, and most of the time bouncing fish can be cancelled by Nair.

Falco does require quite a bit of reads, but he can still hold his own. His Fair and Fsmash KO pretty early.

I'm a fan of the Match up, being a Falco Main, simply because it makes you a better player. Sheik does have advantage, but it's not impossible.
 

pbjezgoud

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Edgeguard sheik offstage? Not sure if srs.

Bouncing fish and Vanish are invincible, and her fair beats everything we have from the front.

If you're able to edgeguard, you're versing a terrible sheik.

Instead, we can pin her to the ledge pretty well. Keep her from regaining stage control.


Here is a video of F-Air cancelling Bouncing fish. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxsxX5z1nUQ


False. Bouncing Fish is only invincible at the very beginning and can be challenged with lingering hitboxes.

Vanish IS invincible but Falco has one of the more reliable aerials for hitting the 1 frame ledge snap window with Nair. Especially if you Dsmash Sheik offstage she like basically anyone else will eat a Nair at minimum as she returns as long as you react correctly.

This is in addition to his Usmash generally being amazing for edgetraps due to its lingering frames, which is nice in all matchups.

Sheik Fair is strong, but it is still worth trying to throw out Nair to intercept it or whiff punish. It's not exactly hard to disrupt her spacing this way and exchange favorably.

I linked this to the other poster you were discussing this with. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxsxX5z1nUQ

This is a video of F-Air cancelling early and later into the Bouncing Fish.
 
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A2ZOMG

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Yeah F-air is pretty good against Bouncing Fish and her ledge snap too. N-air is a bit easier to time though as the hitbox is larger vertically and it comes out faster.
 

Ladder

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I find bair out of shield and shieldgrlab very useful in this match up.
Also is this matchup better for falco than it is for ness or not? (Ness is my secondary)
 
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