M-Tude
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2014
- Messages
- 66
Hey there fellow Roy players!
This is a guide of sorts that details my ideas of what a perfect Roy tech-chase looks like, and why tech-chases with Roy are so important. There's not too much Roy discussion going on around here, so I was hoping to spark something. Involve newer people, draw out advice from the sages of Roy.
So I’ve been thinking. We all know that Roy’s damage output is pretty miniscule most of the time, and most of his options of attack are very unsafe at higher levels of play. Aerials are CCable, D-tilt is too, to an extent, and DED can be CC’d or SDI’d out of at higher percents and just in general by non-fast fallers.
So what other ways does Roy really have to rack up damage?
So his DD grab game is really great. I think that Grab tech-chases the way to go to rack up damage and set up for a kill. Grabs can’t be CC’d or SDI’d out of, and you pretty much know what your opponents options are out of any given grab. I feel like this could help Roy control the pace of a match.
Now, I’m not a Roy main, but I do enjoy him a lot. Even more so, I want to be a feared fox-slayer with Roy. So let’s all get better, eh? I wanted to get some discussion about Roy going so that we can all learn a bit from each other and improve out game.
When I first thought about the possibility of a tech-chase-->death strategy for Roy, I came up with a “guaranteed multiple option coverage” tech-chase framework that allows Roy to cover all options of his opponents’ teching patterns for free.
Roy multiple coverage option (potentially covers every option)
· D-throw-->Turnaround D-tilt (no-tech or tech in place)-->Turnaround F-smash (tech behind)/Run JC-grab (tech away)
Now, tech-chasing is almost never just guaranteed. At least not with more work and thought than I put into the model above. So after trying it and finding that it did not work as I had originally planned it, I came up with another idea.
Tech-chasing with Roy on reaction; drawing inspiration from Fiction's article on tech-chasing.
While the floor plan above is not realistic to cover every option, it can be used as a model for laying out your options for a tech-chase on reaction. So let’s rethink the D-throw model in a more doable/reaction based manner.
With this model of reaction, you could hypothetically cover every option with a little more training, precision, and attention to detail, than just a simple multiple-option coverage move. Covering Tech in place and tech behind is fairly easy to do on reaction—you don’t really even need to move! It’s tech away that is the hard one, but it could be done. Lets try F-throw next.
U-throw
Chaingrab on spacies, lol
U-throw is the easiest to tech-chase from at low percents as long as there are no platforms within reach, because it gives you the most time to react to your opponents DI and space yourself their landing position. Unfortunately though, it is most likely that platforms will at some point get in the way of an U-throw tech-chase. Keep in mind, also, that fox can jump out of U-throw tech-chase right before he hits the ground around 40% and falco around 30% whereas they cannot jump out of F-throw and D-throw. They may not know this though, as they are used to being CGed off of U-throw, so don’t be afraid to abuse the U-throw and their ignorance. Falcon can jump out even earlier (sub 20%) but once again, abuse ignorance. If they do jump out, turnaround U-tilt is a great move at low to mid % that catches them and sends them to land within tech-chasing distance. U-air-->grab is another good one at mid to high percents if they let themselves fall within range. Then I would recommend tech-chasing with a different throw.
This brings us to discuss another important part of tech-chasing in general—(awareness of) Stage Position.
At any given point you may find that one of your throw tech-chase options is altered by the presence of either a platform or a nearby ledge.
Now, I’ll admit—while I have a dream of taking my Roy and having him feared as a fox-slayer across the land—as a ganon/falcon main, I don’t necessarily know the best punishes for tech-chases on platforms. I’m hoping that as part of a community initiative we could all think of some great punishes together.
Platform tech-chase options: Here are just some of my un-optimized ideas for a platform tech-chase but please comment more ideas that are undoubtedly more fun, complex, and overall cooler!
If after reading this you have no other comments, just leave a comment to help me figure out ways to better punish platform techs than a marvelously unimpressive U-air.
Maybe we can advance Roy’s meta to have a death-touch against fast fallers (without a CG necessary, and on any stage), even if we have a noodle-touch against the rest of the cast.
—The Tude
Excess data:
I believe that Shiek and Ganon can also be tech-chased somewhat in this manner, though I have never tried it on a human before. I have their jump out percents for F & D throw listed below. Both of them have long techrolls, which may make it more difficult, but I still think we could get a good 50% on them with one grab. Let me know if anyone has experience in this.
Shiek and Ganon can jump out of D-throw at 47% unless DIing away, then its like +100%. Shiek might be able to jump out a bit earlier if DIing in, but she can also be regrabbed in the air (before she jumps out) from 50-90% as long as she DI’s in.
Ganon cannot jump out of F-throw for many % after 100.
Shiek can jump out of F-throw with DI up or in around 90%. Otherwise it’s far over 100% as well for no DI or DI away.
Note on %: I did none of the % testing using in depth software like dolphin or other frame data/TAS applications. Some % may be off by a small margin. I believe that my friends and I did a good job with our human DI testing, but please feel free to test the % yourselves.
This is a guide of sorts that details my ideas of what a perfect Roy tech-chase looks like, and why tech-chases with Roy are so important. There's not too much Roy discussion going on around here, so I was hoping to spark something. Involve newer people, draw out advice from the sages of Roy.
So I’ve been thinking. We all know that Roy’s damage output is pretty miniscule most of the time, and most of his options of attack are very unsafe at higher levels of play. Aerials are CCable, D-tilt is too, to an extent, and DED can be CC’d or SDI’d out of at higher percents and just in general by non-fast fallers.
So what other ways does Roy really have to rack up damage?
So his DD grab game is really great. I think that Grab tech-chases the way to go to rack up damage and set up for a kill. Grabs can’t be CC’d or SDI’d out of, and you pretty much know what your opponents options are out of any given grab. I feel like this could help Roy control the pace of a match.
Now, I’m not a Roy main, but I do enjoy him a lot. Even more so, I want to be a feared fox-slayer with Roy. So let’s all get better, eh? I wanted to get some discussion about Roy going so that we can all learn a bit from each other and improve out game.
When I first thought about the possibility of a tech-chase-->death strategy for Roy, I came up with a “guaranteed multiple option coverage” tech-chase framework that allows Roy to cover all options of his opponents’ teching patterns for free.
Roy multiple coverage option (potentially covers every option)
· D-throw-->Turnaround D-tilt (no-tech or tech in place)-->Turnaround F-smash (tech behind)/Run JC-grab (tech away)
Now, tech-chasing is almost never just guaranteed. At least not with more work and thought than I put into the model above. So after trying it and finding that it did not work as I had originally planned it, I came up with another idea.
Tech-chasing with Roy on reaction; drawing inspiration from Fiction's article on tech-chasing.
While the floor plan above is not realistic to cover every option, it can be used as a model for laying out your options for a tech-chase on reaction. So let’s rethink the D-throw model in a more doable/reaction based manner.
- D-throw
- Turnaround and space yourself within grab range, but outside of shine range.
- Jab reset/D-tilt on missed tech. Standing grab covers tech in place.
- Turnaround again and JC grab/F-smash for tech in. Can be done on reaction.
- Dash-->wavedash forward and JC grab/D-tilt for tech away. Has tight timing but can be done Vs. falcon & fox. Didn’t test falco.
With this model of reaction, you could hypothetically cover every option with a little more training, precision, and attention to detail, than just a simple multiple-option coverage move. Covering Tech in place and tech behind is fairly easy to do on reaction—you don’t really even need to move! It’s tech away that is the hard one, but it could be done. Lets try F-throw next.
- F-throw
- Dash or wavedash forward to place of landing. Watch teching animation closely.
- Jab or D-tilt for missed tech/ JC-grab for tech in place.
- Wavedash back F-smash/D-tilt or DD grab for Tech-roll in. DD grab might be easiest to do on reaction.
- Dash-->WD forward and F-smash/D-smash/D-tilt or JC grab for tech-away. May be very difficult on reaction with DI away. JC grab is again probably the easiest.
U-throw
Chaingrab on spacies, lol
- Depending on DI, walk towards or turn to face landing position. (You don’t need to be right next to where they land. Spacing yourself so that you are not within shine distance but still within grab range is a good idea).
- · Jab or D-tilt for missed tech/ JC-grab for tech in place.
- · Turnaround and JC grab/F-smash for tech in.
- · Dash/wavedash forward into JC grab or really any other fast move with good range. JC grab is just simplest and easiest.
U-throw is the easiest to tech-chase from at low percents as long as there are no platforms within reach, because it gives you the most time to react to your opponents DI and space yourself their landing position. Unfortunately though, it is most likely that platforms will at some point get in the way of an U-throw tech-chase. Keep in mind, also, that fox can jump out of U-throw tech-chase right before he hits the ground around 40% and falco around 30% whereas they cannot jump out of F-throw and D-throw. They may not know this though, as they are used to being CGed off of U-throw, so don’t be afraid to abuse the U-throw and their ignorance. Falcon can jump out even earlier (sub 20%) but once again, abuse ignorance. If they do jump out, turnaround U-tilt is a great move at low to mid % that catches them and sends them to land within tech-chasing distance. U-air-->grab is another good one at mid to high percents if they let themselves fall within range. Then I would recommend tech-chasing with a different throw.
This brings us to discuss another important part of tech-chasing in general—(awareness of) Stage Position.
At any given point you may find that one of your throw tech-chase options is altered by the presence of either a platform or a nearby ledge.
- Dealing with ledges
- · If you are on the main base of a stage but close to a ledge, and don’t want to give your opponent an opportunity to DI off the level—though that may result in an edge-guard opportunity if that’s your style—simply throw them the other way.
- · But! If you are far enough away that they cannot DI off the level, throwing toward the ledge may be a very strong move.
- · · F-throwing an opponent so that they land fairly close to the ledge limits their teching options.
- · · · They no longer have tech-away as a safe option.
- · · · · If they tried to tech away, they would roll a minimal distance toward the ledge, cutting the distance of their tech-roll short while the amount of time needed to complete it stays the same. This means you have the same amount of time to cover and punish a closer distance than normal.
- · · · · · Their options thus essentially become no-tech, tech in place, and tech-roll in since a tech-away offers you a large punishment opportunity—such as walk forward and F-smash.
- Platforms
- · When taking platforms into account in the stage area around you, it is important to keep in mind that unless you are directly underneath the platform, the opponent generally has the option of whether to DI your U-throw onto the platform or not.
- · · This means that if your opponent chooses not to DI onto the platform, then your tech-chase just resumes normally. Space yourself outside shine range at their landing position and follow your mental framework.
- · · If they do DI onto the platform, then your tech-chase options change.
- · · · When your opponent DI’s onto a platform, they have the same four options that they normally would, but it is generally within a much smaller space. The distance from platform edge to platform edge is generally not that great, giving us what I feel like is ample time to come up with a great punish.
Now, I’ll admit—while I have a dream of taking my Roy and having him feared as a fox-slayer across the land—as a ganon/falcon main, I don’t necessarily know the best punishes for tech-chases on platforms. I’m hoping that as part of a community initiative we could all think of some great punishes together.
Platform tech-chase options: Here are just some of my un-optimized ideas for a platform tech-chase but please comment more ideas that are undoubtedly more fun, complex, and overall cooler!
- Waveland onto platform and grab.
- · I feel like there is enough time to do this at certain percents.
- Waveland on D-smash
- · I like the idea of this. If you can get to the center of a platform and D-smash in the direction that they fell, timed correctly I feel like it could cover all options. Not sure if there is enough time for this though.
- U-air on reaction underneath platform.
- · Simply get underneath the center of the platform and watch where they tech roll.
- Full hop N-air onto platform to cover no-tech & tech in place-->JC grab on tech-in or tech-away.
If after reading this you have no other comments, just leave a comment to help me figure out ways to better punish platform techs than a marvelously unimpressive U-air.
Maybe we can advance Roy’s meta to have a death-touch against fast fallers (without a CG necessary, and on any stage), even if we have a noodle-touch against the rest of the cast.
—The Tude
Excess data:
I believe that Shiek and Ganon can also be tech-chased somewhat in this manner, though I have never tried it on a human before. I have their jump out percents for F & D throw listed below. Both of them have long techrolls, which may make it more difficult, but I still think we could get a good 50% on them with one grab. Let me know if anyone has experience in this.
Shiek and Ganon can jump out of D-throw at 47% unless DIing away, then its like +100%. Shiek might be able to jump out a bit earlier if DIing in, but she can also be regrabbed in the air (before she jumps out) from 50-90% as long as she DI’s in.
Ganon cannot jump out of F-throw for many % after 100.
Shiek can jump out of F-throw with DI up or in around 90%. Otherwise it’s far over 100% as well for no DI or DI away.
Note on %: I did none of the % testing using in depth software like dolphin or other frame data/TAS applications. Some % may be off by a small margin. I believe that my friends and I did a good job with our human DI testing, but please feel free to test the % yourselves.
