The Sakurai angle

[Veril]

I actually agree with Jiang about this O.o

Moves that cannot combo well and serve primarily as KO moves should not have the Sakurai angle. The only affect that replacing the Sakurai angle would have on these moves would be to emphasize skill with DI, instead of essentially doing it for the person.


Thoughts? Here's excerpts from Blinds list. These range from obviously not a problem to change like Bowser/Ike's f-smashes to moves that I'm less sure about. Please feel free to fill me in, esp for Marth. No really, I insist... if you're in the b+backroom you should seriously be checking this out. Help from other wbr members is greatly appreciated here as well, but I can't really demand it so... "puppy dogs eyes"

imo we def. should change this

Bowser:
Ftilt?
Fsmash - Strong hit lolwut
Fair?
Bair - Weak hit?

Captain Falcon:
Ftilt - Regardless of Angle, though damage and kb are compensated
Dsmash
FALCON PUNCH
REVERSE FALCON PUNCH !x1000 WTF

Charizard: not done yet

Diddy:
Dsmash

DK:
Ftilt - Regardless of Angle, though damage and kb are compensated
Fsmash
Donkey Punch lol

Falco:
Fsmash
Usmash - Weak hit
UpB

Fox:
Fsmash
Usmash - Weak hit
Dsmash - weak hits
Nair

G&W:
Fsmash - Weak hit
Judgement 9
UpB - Final hit
Bucket

Ganon: Karn? Opinion on fair?
Utilt - Strong Hit
Fair (definitely strong fair, not necessarily weak fair)
WARLOCK PUNCH
UpB - Throw

ICs: not done yet

Ike: probably should talk to silven.
Ftilt - Angled up and down?
Dtilt - Not spiking hitboxes?
Fsmash lolwut
Bair?

Ivysaur:

Kirby:
Nair?
Bair

Jigglypuff:

Link:
Fsmash - 2nd Hit
Fair
Grounded UpB

Lucario: f*** this guy! Idk which of these should be removed tbh. Definitely want to avoid making Lucario better.
Ftilt - Strong hit
Fsmash
Dsmash
Nair
Bair
Dair - 2nd hit
Fthrow - Both Hitboxes
SideB

Lucas:
Fsmash
Dsmash

Luigi:
SideB

Mario:
Dsmash
Fair - Final hit

Marth: Viet? Should also talk to CK.
Ftilt
Fsmash
Dsmash - only some hits
Nair - second hit
Shield Breaker
Dancing Blade Side 4
Dolphin Slash - one hit
Counter

Peach:
Fsmash - F858
Fair
Fthrow

Pikachu:
SideB
DownB

Pit:
Fsmash
Dsmash - 1st hit
Bair

Zelda:
Fsmash
Dsmash
Fair
Bair
Bthrow

 

[VietGeek]

KO moves that have Sakurai angles are by far mostly, if not ALL aerial kill moves.

Kill moves with this angle and criteria that we haven't messed with would be...Ganon's Fair, TL's fair, Ike's fair, Pit's Bair, Marth's tipper Nair...

I mean seriously this could go on for a while. Basically, in designing an "aerial fighter," Sakurai must have thought that making aerial kill moves so potentially disastrous would frustrate the players. <_<

Now I may look like Sakurai but I'm not him. Of course if Sakurai trolled his fellow "employees" on a daily basis then perhaps that may support the far-fetched claim that my family was a branch that was lost at sea and ended up in Indochina.

Except not really.

 

[leafgreen386]

While I certainly agree with this, it essentially means removing almost every sakurai angle in the game. The large majority of sakurai angle moves are actually kill moves from what I've seen, and at that point you may as well just kill it entirely.

 

[GHNeko]

The thing about that is, removing the Sakurai angle can be considered a buff in certain cases. Add on the fact that some moves will already be benefiting from the stage boundary reduction, it'd just be better to look at moves individually rather than just do away with the angles.

 

[Blinds]

So here's a list kill moves that have the Sakurai Angle. I've only gotten half way through the cast, but more will come later.

Pit:
Ftilt
Fsmash
Dsmash - 1st hit
Fair - can combo
Bair
Fthrow

Peach:
Fsmash - F858
Nair
Fair
Bair
Fthrow

Link:
Ftilt
Fsmash - 2nd Hit
Fair
Grounded UpB


Zelda:
Ftilt
Fsmash
Dsmash
Fair
Bair
Bthrow

Pikachu:
Nair
SideB
DownB

Captain Falcon:
Ftilt - Regardless of Angle, though damage and kb are compensated
Utilt
Dsmash
Bair
FALCON PUNCH
REVERSE FALCON PUNCH
UpB

Ike:
DashA
Ftilt - Angled up and down
Dtilt - Not spiking hitboxes
Fsmash
Fair
Bair

Diddy:
Ftilt
Dsmash
Fair
Bair

DK:
Ftilt - Regardless of Angle, though damage and kb are compensated
Fsmash
Bair
Donkey Punch

Falco:
Ftilt
Fsmash
Usmash - Weak hit
Bair
Bthrow
Nair - Final hit
UpB

Fox:
Ftilt
Fsmash
Usmash - Weak hit
Dsmash - weak hits
Nair
Bair - Weak hit

G&W:
Dtilt
Fsmash - Weak hit
Fair
Judgement 9
UpB - Final hit
Bucket

Ganon:
Utilt - Strong Hit
Fair
Bair
Uair - first hit
WARLOCK PUNCH
UpB - Throw

Kirby:
Ftilt
Nair
Bair

Bowser:
Ftilt
Fsmash - Strong hit
Fair
Bair - Weak hit

Lucario:
Ftilt - Strong hit
Fsmash
Dsmash
Nair
Bair
Dair - 2nd hit
Fthrow - Both Hitboxes
SideB

Lucas:
Ftilt
Fsmash
Dsmash
Nair
Fair
Bair - Non spiking hitboxes

Luigi:
Ftilt
Fair
Bair
SideB

Mario:
Ftilt
Dsmash
Fair - Final hit

Marth:
Ftilt
Fsmash
Dsmash - only some hits
Nair - second hit
Shield Breaker
Dancing Blade Side 4
Dolphin Slash - one hit
Counter

The rest of the cast coming later

 

[GHNeko]

Are you ****ing serious?

That's ridiculous.

A bunch of those NEEED to go.

 

[Revven]

Let's not forget that the reason it's called the Sakurai angle is because this angle makes the moves have a low chance of tripping the opponent at low %s (meaning, they're on the ground still from the attack). Which is why Ganon's Fair can trip people at low %s (which is really bad for both opponents). You really can't expect to take advantage of the trip effect a lot of these moves have (unless they are tilts like DK's Dtilt in which case are fine to keep).

I proposed this earlier on before Veril was leader, leaf was about the only person who agreed with me to get rid of the majority of them. Everyone else deemed it as too much work or unnecessary. >.> (As far as I remember).

I could help out with this I guess depending on what the angles need to be changed to (I'm guessing more or less acute angles, right? Like 45º or 60º)

 

[GHNeko]

The angles need to match the purpose of the move, imo.

 

[Blinds]

I could help out with this I guess depending on what the angles need to be changed to (I'm guessing more or less acute angles, right? Like 45º or 60º)

These are more or forward hitting moves than upward hitting moves. I believe the range seems to be 20º-45º without DI.