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Toon Link Matchup Discussion: Ness
- Thread starter MaskedAvnger
- Start date
Bartolon
Smash Lord
Yoshi's island is a good counterpick
Ness' nair cancels Arrows, Boomerangs, and grabs Bombs. I might be wrong about the Arrows. Anyway, I do believe that Toon Link is a pretty difficult opponent, but nothing that can't be handled. PK Fire is totally useless unless you can land it above. But you'd have to not use that for a bit, which is do-able. A few of Toon Link's attacks seem predictable when it comes to KOing, but he's got enough to finish the job, so that's a plus. And while on the subject, because of Toon Link's light weight, Ness can possibly KO early.
As for gimping, I don't see much of that, ever. A lot of people theorize about how easy it is, up until they actually play the character. I've seen a lot of these matches, and they're really interesting, and both characters are great. Some like to say it's 60:40, TL, but from what I've seen, and through my experience, I'd say it's about 55:45, TL. Than again, 60:40 might sound about right. Who knows?
As for gimping, I don't see much of that, ever. A lot of people theorize about how easy it is, up until they actually play the character. I've seen a lot of these matches, and they're really interesting, and both characters are great. Some like to say it's 60:40, TL, but from what I've seen, and through my experience, I'd say it's about 55:45, TL. Than again, 60:40 might sound about right. Who knows?
MJG
Smash Hero
ya but first you have to catch toonlink 
. good job uffe. i would say closer to 65:35 though
. good job uffe. i would say closer to 65:35 though
MJG
Smash Hero
I was wondering if this was wifi by the speed of the match
*Looks at video description*
...
You can't really use wifi for this type of stuff lol.
Everything is delayed in wifi >_>
*Looks at video description*
...
You can't really use wifi for this type of stuff lol.
Everything is delayed in wifi >_>
Iofsauron
Smash Journeyman
Yeah I have to agree, usually wifi matches don't count
MaskedAvnger
Smash Journeyman
Matchup Discussion Summary: Ness
Best stage to fight Ness on:
Other good stages:
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Smashville
Worst stage to fight Ness on:
Other bad stages:
Delfino Plaza
Ness is a character that can prove to be a little bit frustrating. Ness' strong aerial game, combined with a strong upclose game, and a couple decent projectile attacks make him a character that can be seemingly hard to fight. However, Ness does have weaknesses that are easy to exploit, including a lackluster recovery and a short range on certain attacks.
Bombs will be especially helpful in this matchup, as Ness' options against them are limited. Boomerang also proves to be very helpful, but arrows should be used sparingly. A bomb pull might prove to be more useful than an arrow shot. Zair is also really helpful, as it outranges Ness.
Don't get caught in PK Fire, and even if you do, Smash DI out of it as fast as you can. Our shieldblock will cancel PKF if you see it coming. Ness will try to hit you with a Dair or an Fsmash if you stay in PKF for too long. PK Thunder can be used for mindgames, be sure to watch out for the tail of it. If he uses it onstage, hitting him with some kind of projectile is probably your best bet, since he will probably be far enough away from you to hit you with it if you get close.
Ness' Recovery: In theory, it is gimpable and very easy to stuff him and take a stock. In practice, this proves to be a little hard. PKT2 has an enormous amount of knockback, and can put you in danger of dying at extremely low percent if you get hit with it. Trying to hit the PKT with a rang or arrow and then edgeguarding is a safer strategy. But if you are close to him, and you are positive you will get to him before PKT does, hitting him with a nair would be effective too.
Don't get grabbed. Bthrow is dangerous.
Don't stay close range for too long against Ness. If you approach, get in a few hits, knock him back, throw out some projectiles to keep him off of you. Upclose, he will beat Tink if you stay there, but attacks like bair and nair will beat him out for a couple hits. Ness' aerial game is really good, and he can chain fair rather easily.
Ban Brinstar or Delfino, Ness is really good on both of them. Brinstar is my personal preference, but some people would prefer to ban Delfino. I would say either one would be a good ban. Take him to Lylat, and if he bans Lylat, Yoshi's and Smashville are both good. The platforms/shy guys help to neutralize PKT mindgames, and all of those stages still allow for Tink's projectile game to be viable.
Grab release to dsmash. I know it works at 0%, not sure if it always works. Some people say it does, some say it doesn't, I'll need to try it out sometime and then I'll report it back to here.
Overall, the matchup is Toon Link's advantage, I'd say around 60:40. Just stay focused.
TL;DR - Bombs and Rang. Watch out for Ness' air game, don't get caught offguard. Don't get grabbed.
Advantage 60 - 40
Best stage to fight Ness on:
Other good stages:
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Smashville
Worst stage to fight Ness on:
Other bad stages:
Delfino Plaza
Ness is a character that can prove to be a little bit frustrating. Ness' strong aerial game, combined with a strong upclose game, and a couple decent projectile attacks make him a character that can be seemingly hard to fight. However, Ness does have weaknesses that are easy to exploit, including a lackluster recovery and a short range on certain attacks.
Bombs will be especially helpful in this matchup, as Ness' options against them are limited. Boomerang also proves to be very helpful, but arrows should be used sparingly. A bomb pull might prove to be more useful than an arrow shot. Zair is also really helpful, as it outranges Ness.
Don't get caught in PK Fire, and even if you do, Smash DI out of it as fast as you can. Our shieldblock will cancel PKF if you see it coming. Ness will try to hit you with a Dair or an Fsmash if you stay in PKF for too long. PK Thunder can be used for mindgames, be sure to watch out for the tail of it. If he uses it onstage, hitting him with some kind of projectile is probably your best bet, since he will probably be far enough away from you to hit you with it if you get close.
Ness' Recovery: In theory, it is gimpable and very easy to stuff him and take a stock. In practice, this proves to be a little hard. PKT2 has an enormous amount of knockback, and can put you in danger of dying at extremely low percent if you get hit with it. Trying to hit the PKT with a rang or arrow and then edgeguarding is a safer strategy. But if you are close to him, and you are positive you will get to him before PKT does, hitting him with a nair would be effective too.
Don't get grabbed. Bthrow is dangerous.
Don't stay close range for too long against Ness. If you approach, get in a few hits, knock him back, throw out some projectiles to keep him off of you. Upclose, he will beat Tink if you stay there, but attacks like bair and nair will beat him out for a couple hits. Ness' aerial game is really good, and he can chain fair rather easily.
Ban Brinstar or Delfino, Ness is really good on both of them. Brinstar is my personal preference, but some people would prefer to ban Delfino. I would say either one would be a good ban. Take him to Lylat, and if he bans Lylat, Yoshi's and Smashville are both good. The platforms/shy guys help to neutralize PKT mindgames, and all of those stages still allow for Tink's projectile game to be viable.
Grab release to dsmash. I know it works at 0%, not sure if it always works. Some people say it does, some say it doesn't, I'll need to try it out sometime and then I'll report it back to here.
Overall, the matchup is Toon Link's advantage, I'd say around 60:40. Just stay focused.
TL;DR - Bombs and Rang. Watch out for Ness' air game, don't get caught offguard. Don't get grabbed.
Advantage 60 - 40 
oOTjayOo
Smash Apprentice
Probably 50 50 probaly from the stuff ive seen
Ness
-Fairs Tls projectles
-Can catch bombs easily do to being in the air alot
TL
-Zair our aireal moves
-Gimping us.
as for the 60 40s and 65 35s.
That would be a real disadvantage right. 65 35 is over exaggerated
Dont see 1 here as far as im looking. Give me some real disadvantages that out number yours.
Its TL.
Powershield > TL
Many characters cant deal with the the camping but we can just fair it lol or power shield. Catch the bombs or just move out of the way.
The bombs only makes him harder imo.
Ness
-Fairs Tls projectles
-Can catch bombs easily do to being in the air alot
TL
-Zair our aireal moves
-Gimping us.
as for the 60 40s and 65 35s.
That would be a real disadvantage right. 65 35 is over exaggerated
Dont see 1 here as far as im looking. Give me some real disadvantages that out number yours.
Its TL.
Powershield > TL
Many characters cant deal with the the camping but we can just fair it lol or power shield. Catch the bombs or just move out of the way.
The bombs only makes him harder imo.
MJG
Smash Hero
*4 AM Pre-Game Johns
Good Toon Links have gotten past the fact that their opponents can ACTUALLY powershield our projectiles. We aren't in 08 anymore. We understand that Grabbing and other shizz is a way that we have to play with TL.
Like really? Powershield > TL. Lol. We are not ZSS XD
We are also prepared for when our opponents catch our bombs. Its not the end of the world and we don't freak out >_>. Aren't you in LA? Play Hyro and tell me what your perspective on the MU is afterwards.
I will admit...a Good ness CAN and WILL give TL trouble if he knows what he is doing.
Lol..Powershield > TL
Good Toon Links have gotten past the fact that their opponents can ACTUALLY powershield our projectiles. We aren't in 08 anymore. We understand that Grabbing and other shizz is a way that we have to play with TL.
Like really? Powershield > TL. Lol. We are not ZSS XD
We are also prepared for when our opponents catch our bombs. Its not the end of the world and we don't freak out >_>. Aren't you in LA? Play Hyro and tell me what your perspective on the MU is afterwards.
I will admit...a Good ness CAN and WILL give TL trouble if he knows what he is doing.
Lol..Powershield > TL
_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
Said Ness broke the #1 rule about taunting, in that you don't taunt when you KO someone. He needed to lose the set just because of that.
He also didn't hold you for a few seconds when he grabbed you at KO % on that last stock, that is also very wrong in my book, a good Ness always lets someone who is grabbed at KO % know they have lost the match by stalling a bit before throwing.
Anyway, I don't see how Tink has a flat out 6:4 advantage vs. Ness. It's not like Ness can't get in close, he isn't lacking in the mobility department and like people have said moves like Fair and Nair sort of eat projectiles if used right, but maybe that is just me.
MaskedAvnger
Smash Journeyman
zair outranges all of ness' aerials. Keeping Ness at midrange is easy. Fair won't eat bombs, it will catch them just like any aerial, which can be difficult if we do a good job mixing up our projectiles. Even if you do catch the bombs, that actually makes it easier on us because at that point you have to get rid of the bomb before you can continue to block projectiles with aerials.
With zair to grab to grab release to dsmash as a legitimate option, we have a true kill combo at some percentage, i don't think it's until ~150%, but it's still there, and if we're playing extremely campy, then you may reach 150.
I'm not sure what the difference in spacing is, but i think our aerials outrange your nair, although I think fair outranges most of our aerial attacks.
Offstage, we have the advantage heavily if we are above you. Which, if we are forcing you offstage, will usually be the case. in that position, we have more tools than ness does. throwing down bombs would get you away from the ledge, possibly leading to a gimped recovery, or any of toon links other offstage tactics. Our recovery grants us more offstage air time, which proves to be very useful against ness.
But that's just my thoughts. I think the matchup is closer to 55-45 than 65-35, definitely, but it's also closer to 60-40 than 55-45. If I had to give it a very specific number, I would call it 58-42, but it doesn't really serve a purpose to get that specific with matchup numbers, as they are just a number that represents the theory of the matchup, as opposed to being the end all be all when dealing with the matchup.
With zair to grab to grab release to dsmash as a legitimate option, we have a true kill combo at some percentage, i don't think it's until ~150%, but it's still there, and if we're playing extremely campy, then you may reach 150.
I'm not sure what the difference in spacing is, but i think our aerials outrange your nair, although I think fair outranges most of our aerial attacks.
Offstage, we have the advantage heavily if we are above you. Which, if we are forcing you offstage, will usually be the case. in that position, we have more tools than ness does. throwing down bombs would get you away from the ledge, possibly leading to a gimped recovery, or any of toon links other offstage tactics. Our recovery grants us more offstage air time, which proves to be very useful against ness.
But that's just my thoughts. I think the matchup is closer to 55-45 than 65-35, definitely, but it's also closer to 60-40 than 55-45. If I had to give it a very specific number, I would call it 58-42, but it doesn't really serve a purpose to get that specific with matchup numbers, as they are just a number that represents the theory of the matchup, as opposed to being the end all be all when dealing with the matchup.
MJG
Smash Hero
2nd to last paragraph was theory crafting at best lol...great job though were actually going somewhere with discussions. We have a disjointed hitbox and ness doesnt. it should beat out all of ness` aerials if spaced right. LETS DISCUSS WOLF NEXT!!!
Ness best options OoS options are a Nair and grab. Nair OoS has decent damage and can lead into some of Ness' guarenteed combos. Just so you guys know if you are in close combat what to watch for.
Also Ness Dash grab has massive range so you may think your out of Ness grab range but he can grab you from a pretty substantial distance with his 8 frame dash grab.
Also PKF can always be jumped out of.
Overall it is Tlink ad, like Yink said, spam the crap out of bombs and boomerang and the zair, but the advantage is only 60:40 at worst.
EDIT: also japes can be a pretty good ness stage so be prepared to potentially go there.
Also Ness Dash grab has massive range so you may think your out of Ness grab range but he can grab you from a pretty substantial distance with his 8 frame dash grab.
Also PKF can always be jumped out of.
Overall it is Tlink ad, like Yink said, spam the crap out of bombs and boomerang and the zair, but the advantage is only 60:40 at worst.
EDIT: also japes can be a pretty good ness stage so be prepared to potentially go there.
hey i got some matches of me vs a ness main, hes pretty good and he beat me on delfino, i didnt know wat to do xD but yea here it is
flea vs trips 1
http://www.youtube.com/user/LichK92#p/u/1/6ZCOgTC-o20
match 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fyzRoky4f0&playnext_from=TL&videos=7F2t-RQabtw&feature=recentu
flea vs trips 1
http://www.youtube.com/user/LichK92#p/u/1/6ZCOgTC-o20
match 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fyzRoky4f0&playnext_from=TL&videos=7F2t-RQabtw&feature=recentu
The way you played in the first game IMO perfectly demonstrates why the MU is Toon Link's advantage. Keep Ness at bay with things he can't really get around, and Zair definitely helps out.
Lol, i don't know what happened in the second one.
Lol, i don't know what happened in the second one.
_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
The 1st match only demonstrates why a projectile spammer has a plus on Ness at FD actually when a Ness is spamming PK Fire hopping to hit with it IMO instead of using PKT when that move is like 200% better than Fire on a stage like that (oh and better in general as well ^_^). Still, the bigger the stage, the harder Ness has to fight in general IMO with like every character. This is mainly because IMO of the fact that Ness' Bthrow and some of his other KO moves are like over 10% weaker on FD compared to SV and BF just because of FD being only a little bit bigger (and boy does it suck in stages like Jungle Japes).
Still, you have a very nice Tink Flea.
Still, you have a very nice Tink Flea.
Lol thanks i guess, the first match was his faultsince he picked FD but remember it was only friendlies. we did those matches for ffun( you should hear me talk junk while i play lmfao)
and as for the 2nd match, i didnt have alot of MU knowledge on Delfino so thats why we went there, we help each other out on CP's against each other char. thats wat i do for my crew members ^.^