trying to develop a way to play both shiek and zelda as part of a startegy, help?

[Mr. Derp]

well, I saw some Nihonjin and I automaticaly wanted to play as shiek becauseI juyst loved the playing style so much. then I read something someone just recently posted, it was about nintendo intending shiek to be the main damage dealer while zelda takes them out wiht power moves. thought this would be cool to try and turn into a real strategy, never really seen it attempted before. But I do have a problem to deal with, how the heck am I supposed to get the time to transition between the two. The strtegy was probably much more plausible if we played the game the way nintendo intended it but we play mcuh faster and I just cant think of a way were it would be safe to transition. Thanks for any suggestions and I'm not trying to win by doing this, just loking for fun and experimenting as of now.

edit: just thought of transforming on the ledge, it seems safer but then again, you'll have to get up from it

 

[NeighborhoodP]

Just... don't.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Transform if you've sent your opponent far enough away that they can't retaliate, or when they are dead if you want to transform.

 

[wuthefwasthat]

i always play sheik and zelda as one character

transform off the ledge - this works pretty safely both ways, pretty sure both can be sweetspotted
transform during recovery, at least sheik to zelda ones
transform when your life starts... lol
basically, transformation is probably faster than most people think - you can transform after throws a lot

usually, i find it annoys the opponent if i transform at every decent opportunity

 

[uglywombat2004]

I'd liek to see a pro do this...and the game creators were right to think this.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

I'd liek to see a pro do this...and the game creators were right to think this.

Obviously they weren't.

And if you transform when you knock them far away, you lose easy edge guarding opps.

 

[Wave⁂]

I find Zelda pretty good at damaging, using tilts and fair/bair. it works well for me.

 

[wuthefwasthat]

Obviously they weren't.

And if you transform when you knock them far away, you lose easy edge guarding opps.

problem is, zelda has really crappy edgeguarding. sheik doesnt. so we toe them off with zelda, and then edgeguard with sheik. it makes sense

 

[Z-N_Freak]

I only play Zelda when I am having trouble against someones playing style. I was playing against a Falco with my Sheik and it wasn't going very well, then I transformed with 2 stocks left and I managed to almost win. (lost with one stock eventually). This was probably because the Falco player didn't had any experience against Zelda and all of is combo's failed.

I also transform into Zelda when I see that I can not make it/hang onto the ledge. Then I transform into Zelda and land on the stage, but I then try to transform back By transforming after I grabbed them (very hard, since the grab is so slow) or after I kicked them, Fair/Bair ftw ^_^

 

[Ryan-K]

just use sheik and when they are guaranteed to die or dying off the top turning into a star turn into zelda that way everyone who turns around sees the result screen and sees zelda and goes "wtf that guy lost to zelda"

>_>

 

[NeighborhoodP]

problem is, zelda has really crappy edgeguarding. sheik doesnt. so we toe them off with zelda, and then edgeguard with sheik. it makes sense

... Or just use Sheik 100% ...

 

[Wave⁂]

wuthefwasthat stole the word outta my mouth. so true, man. so true...

 

[Mr. Derp]

well, I think today I deeloped my strategy further, when fighting fast fallers, start out as Zelda instead of shiek and chaingrab into bair/fair. If the kicks miss or they survive them, shiek can do some pretty mean stuff to hgih damage FFers (dash attack juggles or repeated f-tilts) or you can just go for the lame-guard (needles, fair, and d-smash)

 

[Wave⁂]

that seems like a nice outline of my game. nice...

 

[salulos]

another fun thing i like to do as zelda is to change into her if i am hit off and i know i cant make it

if you have needles charged and you die as sheik, you loose them, but if you die as zelda, you keep them

it doesnt help too much b/c you can just charge more needles when youre invincable, but it annoys people when you act happy that you kept ur needles even if you died

 

[Wave⁂]

hmm...interesting. i wonder why Zelda get to keep needles...

 

[Lightningmage]

Because the game treats Zelda and Sheik as different characters. Sheik loses the needles when he dies, but if Zelda dies, then Sheik never died, therefore resumes the state he was in when he resumes the fight. Anyway, that's pretty much how to play integration. Against characters who have few ways to fight back while returning to the edge (Dr.Mario, C.Falcon/Ganon, etc) the toe is a great move to chase off the edge. Never do it against Falco, as his Phantasm will more than likely spike you, and Zelda's spike cancel sucks (especially if blind spotted)

 

[CmRoddy]

Because the game treats Zelda and Sheik as different characters. Sheik loses the needles when he dies, but if Zelda dies, then Sheik never died, therefore resumes the state he was in when he resumes the fight. Anyway, that's pretty much how to play integration. Against characters who have few ways to fight back while returning to the edge (Dr.Mario, C.Falcon/Ganon, etc) the toe is a great move to chase off the edge. Never do it against Falco, as his Phantasm will more than likely spike you, and Zelda's spike cancel sucks (especially if blind spotted)

everyone knows that Sheik is a girl... duh.... jk jk.

 

[Banksya]

just do it when they recovering from far enough away. Then sue zelda for KO's if you wish, but sheik can do just as well in most situations. kind of an obvious answer but, >_>

 

[sheikattack]

This is a great idea, in fact, I have recently been practicing it myself.

I play Sheik, then I figured I should practice playing a low tier, so I decided to practice Zelda. Then I wondered the same question... could I play as both? The answer? Yes.

Sheik is great for racking up damage, but aside from her Fair, she really does not have a finishing move. Zelda has the lunury of a solid Fsmash and her Fair (if timed properly) is devastating.

In terms of when to change, though, I really only change to Zelda when I need her recovery. Then I play as Zelda until another opening comes to change back. Don't waste a valuable opportunuty to edge guard though...

I was laughed at when I came up with this strategy, but after 4 stocking my friend's Marth, I was the one laughing.

 

[Tristan_win]

I've used Sheik and Zelda for sometime now and as of right now I'm also trying to figure out how to use them together so far the most effective way I’ve thought of is to decide from the beginning how you wish to fight.
For example if the person is using a Fox there a very good chance they are going to be very aggressive not from just the beginning but for the better part of the match so you should start out with Zelda.
Zelda is no doubt design for evade and counter and with her confusing but easy to use mind games you should start the match with her.
Now most people won’t be as stupid and continue to play all out offence for the whole match especially if you get a stock or so up on them. In that case Zelda is no longer the best to use unless you wish to be brave/random and be aggressive with Zelda (bad idea).
The switch from Zelda to Sheik is a pretty drastic change in fighting style, which will give you an edge but also can hurt you if you don't get very comfortable with both characters. When and if you switch to Sheik you can no longer use Zelda until they die. The reason I think this is because Sheik has a much more effective edge guard game then Zelda and that it’s almost impossible to accurately guess when they are going to be aggressive or not in mid life.
After each time you remove a stock and if you do have full needles you should quickly change back to Zelda because with they’re inviolable revived time you will be forced back on defense for a short time. I’ve found using Zelda Up B to trick or run away with is far safer then waiting for those few seconds to pass on the edge or running loose on the stage.
Well that’s basically all I’ve come up with so far. I wish I could give more but it all really comes down to how you think your opponent will fight and respond to your switching.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

annoying1359 your sig is freaking amazing and i love it passionately.

anyways... the reasons for transforming into zelda are ridiculous at least how most people explain them... people think transforming into zelda for the kill is a good idea... well thats completely ridiculous, not only is shiek better at comboing, but also has TONS more killing oportunities. zelda has very limited moves that have more killing potential than any of shieks, plus, you cant really combo intot hem very well, whereas with shiek you are asimple grab or tilt away from getting your fair, or you can dsmash... or do a lot of things lol

 

[Joe 4'Sho]

everything is true, but i doubt someone would know how to fight a zelda and a sheik in the same match, they have completely different properties. i think it's a pretty decent mindgame.

 

[Jihnsius]

In theory (according to how Nintendo supposedly designed the game), Zelda has much more effective ways to kill than Sheik. She has a powerful fsmash, fair, and bair. What she doesn't have is an effective way to set up into those. The only way to set up well into fair and bair are dthrow and/or bthrow (sorry, been a while since I tried Zelda, not sure which throw it was that sets them up right behind her head). Her fsmash has terrible range. Although Sheik only has one really great KO move (fair), she has a dozen ways to set it up. When it comes to ledgeguarding, Sheik wins, hands down. Sheik also wins at projectiles. So what is Zelda better than Sheik at? Recovery, mindgames, running, and needlestoring.

With it broken down like that, I'd say it's safe to say that Zelda is only useful for playing defensively and running away at higher percentages. Her up+B can be used to get around the stage to hope for a fluke and a setup to a finisher. If she gets hit off the stage, she'll always be able to recover unless hit past the "point of no return." If it seems you're not going to be able to recover from something, mash down+B and hope you transform before the KO. If you manage to make it back to Sheik, ta-da! You have a full set of needles.