Was Dedede's gordo nerf back then fair?

[Solutionme]

Not a Dedede main myself, but I've always pondered that question since it's way too easy to reflect that back, which makes no sense because it looks like a ball with good amount of mass being hit by a giant penguin with a huge hammer.

 

[cwjakesteel]

It's because of the way the gordo's used. It's not supposed to be used as a projectile, but more of a spacing, walling and shield pressure tool. The gordo is a trap, and becomes a better trap, in a way by giving the opponent more options to deal with gordo.

Essentially it's a high risk but also high reward, and how you use Gordo is absolutely integral to Dedede's game. (unless you're playing against villager)

 

[Solutionme]

It's because of the way the gordo's used. It's not supposed to be used as a projectile, but more of a spacing, walling and shield pressure tool. The gordo is a trap, and becomes a better trap, in a way by giving the opponent more options to deal with gordo.

Essentially it's a high risk but also high reward, and how you use Gordo is absolutely integral to Dedede's game. (unless you're playing against villager)

So what would be a more appropriate buff to compensate? Because before the Charizard and DK buffs he was pretty much the best heavy character due to multiple jumps, range and a strong recovery.

 

[cwjakesteel]

So what would be a more appropriate buff to compensate? Because before the Charizard and DK buffs he was pretty much the best heavy character due to multiple jumps, range and a strong recovery.

Oh yea DDD was the best heavy by far before the other heavys' buffs. Maybe make gordo a little stronger, like 5% to reflect. But the important thing about buffs is that they do not entirely change the playstyle. Maybe if Dedede had better defence against reflected gordos, or if Gordo throw just came out a lot quicker to make it less punishable.

 

[Solutionme]

Oh yea DDD was the best heavy by far before the other heavys' buffs. Maybe make gordo a little stronger, like 5% to reflect. But the important thing about buffs is that they do not entirely change the playstyle. Maybe if Dedede had better defence against reflected gordos, or if Gordo throw just came out a lot quicker to make it less punishable.

D-tilt is ok, but after a while it is ineffective. It's possible they could make his aerials have somewhat better endlag along with a better inhale.

 

[Axel311]

No, it wasn't fair back then. But to Nintendo's credit the game was so new at that point we had no idea how good or bad Dedede was.

But at this point with nearly 1 year of meta, it's obvious now that the reflect mechanic goes way too far. The opponent should have to put more effort in to reflect it. In my opinion no projectile or jab should reflect it - just aerials, some specials and smashes. That to me would be fair. This would also help Dedede not be so vulnerable to camping since he could counter camp to some extent. I understand that the design is for the gordo to be used for spacing, but the threshold is still way too low.

My only guess is the reasoning from folks at nintendo who don't play competitive smash is "OMG, his forward smash does SOO much damage and knockback...we couldn't possibly give him a projectile usable in neutral, or speed, or good frame data, or any kill setups...if we did he'd certainly be OP"

I'm seriously so frustrated with D3 lately and have demoted him to secondary status in favor of Wario. Dedede's my favorite character but if we don't get some buffs soon I'm going to be forced to drop him completely except for a handful of matchups unless I want to not win. DK gets guaranteed kills out of grab at 70% in the last patch and Dedede's gordos still get reflected by falco lasers. WTF.

Sorry went a little off topic, but topics like this make me want to rant.

 

[Solutionme]

No, it wasn't fair back then. But to Nintendo's credit the game was so new at that point we had no idea how good or bad Dedede was.

But at this point with nearly 1 year of meta, it's obvious now that the reflect mechanic goes way too far. The opponent should have to put more effort in to reflect it. In my opinion no projectile or jab should reflect it - just aerials, some specials and smashes. That to me would be fair. This would also help Dedede not be so vulnerable to camping since he could counter camp to some extent. I understand that the design is for the gordo to be used for spacing, but the threshold is still way too low.

My only guess is the reasoning from folks at nintendo who don't play competitive smash is "OMG, his forward smash does SOO much damage and knockback...we couldn't possibly give him a projectile usable in neutral, or speed, or good frame data, or any kill setups...if we did he'd certainly be OP"

I'm seriously so frustrated with D3 lately and have demoted him to secondary status in favor of Wario. Dedede's my favorite character but if we don't get some buffs soon I'm going to be forced to drop him completely except for a handful of matchups unless I want to not win. DK gets guaranteed kills out of grab at 70% in the last patch and Dedede's gordos still get reflected by falco lasers. WTF.

Sorry went a little off topic, but topics like this make me want to rant.

It's probably going to happen soon, I honestly don't think he is completely terrible, if you had to ask my opinion I thought he was high tier before the gordo nerf because he had combos and was hard to get in on, along with a strong recovery. He's about as sensitive as Sheik, where one wrong buff will break him in comparison to one wrong nerf to Sheik and she becomes worthless.

But that was pretty much my thought process as well, I mean I could understand certain jabs from certain characters like ganon's, but projectile's that are weak shouldn't be able to beat it out easily.

 

[Axel311]

It's probably going to happen soon, I honestly don't think he is completely terrible, if you had to ask my opinion I thought he was high tier before the gordo nerf because he had combos and was hard to get in on, along with a strong recovery. He's about as sensitive as Sheik, where one wrong buff will break him in comparison to one wrong nerf to Sheik and she becomes worthless.

But that was pretty much my thought process as well, I mean I could understand certain jabs from certain characters like ganon's, but projectile's that are weak shouldn't be able to beat it out easily.

Hopefully. I think he was mid tier on release. He's definitely low tier now, so many characters have gotten key buffs and passed him up while D3 hasn't gotten anything.

 

[dreamastermind]

I hated gordos at first because they were so easy to get hit back at you, but now that I've mastered hitting them back again at them, it's actually fun. You can do so much more with gordos than his waddle dee toss from brawl ever could accomplish, but it takes a lot more practice and planning. I do miss the waddle dees cause they're adorable, but I would never want to give up what we can do now.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

^^ yeah I agree with the above.

If you use gordos the way you should be, them getting reflected back is almost never a game changing problem.

Dedede isn't low tier, but I wouldn't disagree that if he got any more nerfed, he'd possibly be unviable. But he's hanging in there.

What I'm trying to say is, while Dedede definitely could use a few buffs, I think the gordo isn't the issue here.

 

[Solutionme]

After analyzing things better at this point I have to agree with Jimmy. Dedede already has a decent enough approach, nay a good approach due to multiple jumps and a decent run speed with a move that moves him forward. Couple that with a projectile that sets up strong edgeguard traps and is easy to deflect back and by no means is Dedede a joke even without considering his amazing recovery and good landing options due to the multiple jumps and gordo. So what should be buffed is the better question? Because he is clearly somewhere in the top of mid-tier. I heard his tilts are also pretty good and he has a combo throw, so maybe he could just get a buffed dash attack to punish OoS with. That seems like the most reasonable thing since none of his tilts if I recall kill at useful percents and they're his best OoS options without counting D-smash.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

After analyzing things better at this point I have to agree with Jimmy. Dedede already has a decent enough approach, nay a good approach due to multiple jumps and a decent run speed with a move that moves him forward. Couple that with a projectile that sets up strong edgeguard traps and is easy to deflect back and by no means is Dedede a joke even without considering his amazing recovery and good landing options due to the multiple jumps and gordo. So what should be buffed is the better question? Because he is clearly somewhere in the top of mid-tier. I heard his tilts are also pretty good and he has a combo throw, so maybe he could just get a buffed dash attack to punish OoS with. That seems like the most reasonable thing since none of his tilts if I recall kill at useful percents and they're his best OoS options without counting D-smash.

I think if he just had less endlag on his aerials and on Inhale, and Nair was safe on shield, that would be good enough for me.

Also if someone found a way to make jet hammer worth it in any way, that'd be great. But I'm not too expectant of that.

 

[Solutionme]

I think if he just had less endlag on his aerials and on Inhale, and Nair was safe on shield, that would be good enough for me.

Also if someone found a way to make jet hammer worth it in any way, that'd be great. But I'm not too expectant of that.

Yeah now that you mention it his specials outside of gordo are little bit lackluster. His up-b isn't a good OoS option, and while his d-smash and tilts are, they're not necessarily amazing, that's of course without counting being able to jump out of shield and grab, but it's not like it's some instant KOing hitbox. Maybe an inhale buff then? It'd be interesting if he could combo off of it. Then again not like I know that much about him. This all started with the gordo.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I wouldn't say Dedede has a good approach. He has multiple approach options that he can mix-up, but most of them are all rather mediocre. His dash speed also isn't anything to write home about, and his aerials are rather lackluster when it comes to their end lag.

Landing options are also middling. The thing is, while you have your multiple jumps, nair, inhale, etc. none of these things are GOOD. They're decent at best and can be mixed up to good effect but you never really have frame advantage over your opponent...not to mention how easy it is to juggle Dedede in the first place.

Dedede needs some QoL changes. I don't think he needs much, but make his aerials overall less laggy on landing, and for the love of Sakurai speed up his inhale please, it upsets me that Kirby's is superior in multiple ways. Other than that, I think Dedede needs to have a kill confirm off of grab earlier than he does now. DK and Charizard are threatening characters even when they have a disadvantageous match-up because they kill so early off grab. For Dedede to have as much trouble approaching as he does and to get nearly nothing from his advantage state compared to other characters, that's a problem.

Those being my top tier changes I want, I'd also like them to adjust Gordo's reflect threshold so that it was a little higher. Mainly I think characters should be more pressured when faced with Gordo, be it a ledge-trap or whatever. And IDK, make Jet Hammer break shields or something.

 

[Axel311]

I do agree that gordo isn't the main issue, but it doesn't help. It would help Dedede a ton if gordo was usable in neutral. Dedede's #1 problem is definitely his awful frame data though.

 

[randomguy1235]

As much as I love D3, he needs a few buffs to better compete in the meta. Here are a few changes I would implement to better balance (he's mid-tier at best now unfortunately):

1. Decrease start-up and ending lag on the Inhale (and maybe Gordo toss?)

2. Reduce ending lag on Usmash and U-tilt, fix Usmash hitbox.

3. Make Fair and Dair auto-cancel on shorthop, fix their hitboxes, and reduce start-up for both moves.

That's it really. If these would be implemented, I could see D3 being high tier.

 

[Putuk]

Here's a miiverse post that sums up my opinion:

 

[Girthquake]

^^ yeah I agree with the above.

If you use gordos the way you should be, them getting reflected back is almost never a game changing problem.

Dedede isn't low tier, but I wouldn't disagree that if he got any more nerfed, he'd possibly be unviable. But he's hanging in there.

What I'm trying to say is, while Dedede definitely could use a few buffs, I think the gordo isn't the issue here.

I vehemently disagree with this. Thinking DDD isn't low tier is flat out up and down left and right 110% wrong. This pick is easily bottom 5 and placements in majors clearly shows this. (outside of El Bardo, but it's hard to tell with the region.)

Sad too that most people that are actually really good with D3 like Uber don't actually solo main him. Another indication of him being low tier trash.

If you guys honestly think that rereflecting Gordo is an end all be all answer to Gordo's counterplay you're again VERY wrong. Gordo Toss has a disgusting amount of wind up and end lag, making it so you basically have to reflect from a distance, which again most of you guys **** on people for using Gordo as a "projectile" from a distance. Literally all it takes is for Gordo to die before it reaches your opponent after you rereflect or simply knowing that the DDD player is competent enough to volley and waiting to hit it again and end it's life span. Not to mention that when you volley, it doesn't AUTOMATICALLY home in on them like it does you when they reflect to you, making it so hitting short characters like Pika, Ness, Kirby, Etc is next to impossible with a proper volley. The only thing outside of this is shielding it, but that's going to give your opponent time to close distance freely. Both of these things happen when Gordo is used both correctly and incorrectly.

DDD at this point in the game after LITERALLY everyone else around him has received buffs is actual trash. He needs buffs or he will be lost in obscurity, especially after having players like Atomsk and Vex talk about dropping him because "He's not good at all and holds me back"

If Gordo Toss had it's start up and or end lag reduced it would be possible to do Gordo set ups in neutral against more than just for glory trash. Gordo both NEEDS and DESERVES buffs.

 

[randomguy1235]

Thinking DDD isn't low tier is flat out up and down left and right 110% wrong. This pick is easily bottom 5 and placements in majors clearly shows this. (outside of El Bardo, but it's hard to tell with the region.)

Sad too that most people that are actually really good with D3 like Uber don't actually solo main him. Another indication of him being low tier trash.

If you honestly think that rereflecting Gordo is an end all be all answer to Gordo's counterplay you're again VERY wrong. Gordo Toss has a disgusting amount of wind up and end lag, making it so you basically have to reflect from a distance, which again most of you guys **** on people for using Gordo as a "projectile" from a distance. Literally all it takes is for Gordo to die before it reaches your opponent after you rereflect or simply knowing that the DDD player is competent enough to volley and waiting to hit it again and end it's life span. Not to mention that when you volley, it doesn't AUTOMATICALLY home in on them like it does you when they reflect to you, making it so hitting short characters like Pika, Ness, Kirby, Etc is next to impossible with a proper volley.

DDD at this point in the game after LITERALLY everyone else around him has received buffs is actual trash. He needs buffs or he will be lost in obscurity, especially after having players like Atomsk and Vex talk about dropping him because "He's not good at all and holds me back"

If Gordo Toss had it's start up and or end lag reduced it would be possible to do Gordo set ups in neutral against more than just for glory trash. Gordo both NEEDS and DESERVES buffs.

He isn't low tier trash...His redeeming qualities make him viable to an extent (as proved by Big D's placing at Paradox). I would personally place him in low mid at this point. Hopefully Sakurai notices that D3 needs some lovin .

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I am holding out for some buffs, since pretty much all of the other low tier characters got addressed in some way or form. Except for like Samus and Mewtwo, I guess.

I wouldn't go as far as calling Dedede a trash character, probably not even bottom 5, but he's gonna plummet as the meta continues to grow if we don't get some changes to our frame data. And I still think he needs a kill throw/a kill set up from his throw as well, just to tighten up his gameplan once he does get in.

 

[Girthquake]

I am holding out for some buffs, since pretty much all of the other low tier characters got addressed in some way or form. Except for like Samus and Mewtwo, I guess.

I wouldn't go as far as calling Dedede a trash character, probably not even bottom 5, but he's gonna plummet as the meta continues to grow if we don't get some changes to our frame data. And I still think he needs a kill throw/a kill set up from his throw as well, just to tighten up his gameplan once he does get in.

I honestly think that when the game was first released DDD was actually a decent pick.

I'm just saying when you have reputable players that have played the character since release dropping him and the reasoning for it is because those reputable players truly believe he is bad and is holding them back says a lot, and it isn't bad players either both Atomsk and Vex are very good and have always been good. Esam put DDD in his bottom 11 as well.

The problem lies in the fact that most characters over the past year have received changes to them that have fixed a lot of issues they previously had and DDD has received none to address his. This means that just about every match up for DDD has gotten much more difficult over the patches. He is being completely left behind almost the entire cast in regards to balance updates at this point.

The only reason anyone plays this character is either due to being a character loyalist or just flat out enjoying how he plays.

 

[Putuk]

Maybe if we have a pity party the balancing team will finally take note.

When will the torment end?

 

[Rebel13]

I like to dabble in D3 for when I feel like my opponent is bad, or it's laggy. When I picked up this game the first time (which was a few months ago, patch 1.0.6 I think) I was like, lol dedede is bad, but man this guy is fun. Good grab combos, decent landing options for a heavyweight, D3 has his perks. He is also a very forgiving character when you're trying to practice reads and stuff. Also destroys noobs. For Glory people can't deal with gordos.
He really just needs better frame data on a few moves, and and he could be decent. Right now he is definitely bottom 5, but hey, he beats Bowser! jab jab, jab jab, jab jab, jab jab . . .

 

[randomguy1235]

I like to dabble in D3 for when I feel like my opponent is bad, or it's laggy. When I picked up this game the first time (which was a few months ago, patch 1.0.6 I think) I was like, lol dedede is bad, but man this guy is fun. Good grab combos, decent landing options for a heavyweight, D3 has his perks. He is also a very forgiving character when you're trying to practice reads and stuff. Also destroys noobs. For Glory people can't deal with gordos.
He really just needs better frame data on a few moves, and and he could be decent. Right now he is definitely bottom 5, but hey, he beats Bowser! jab jab, jab jab, jab jab, jab jab . . .

Don't take the bait guys

 

[Rebel13]

@ randomguy1235 It's a joke mate. I really like D3, and there are a lot of matchups he can/will win, I was just sayin that its pretty clear he isn't good from a competitive standpoint. The bowser thing is just that a lot of people seem to want to go bowser vs my D3, which is the most hilarious thing in the world.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

The only reason anyone plays this character is either due to being a character loyalist or just flat out enjoying how he plays.

Preaching to the choir on that one, lol. I've stuck with Dedede (my favorite Kirby character) through Brawl, PM, and now Smash 4, and while it's mighty tempting to drop him in favor of someone else I don't enjoy anyone nearly as much as I do Dedede. Although Doc and Falcon kinda come close.

I'm just saying when you have reputable players that have played the character since release dropping him and the reasoning for it is because those reputable players truly believe he is bad and is holding them back says a lot, and it isn't bad players either both Atomsk and Vex are very good and have always been good. Esam put DDD in his bottom 11 as well.

The problem lies in the fact that most characters over the past year have received changes to them that have fixed a lot of issues they previously had and DDD has received none to address his. This means that just about every match up for DDD has gotten much more difficult over the patches. He is being completely left behind almost the entire cast in regards to balance updates at this point.

And I don't actually disagree with any of this either. I just don't think we've quite reached a point yet where potentially being bottom 11 means being unusable - it's certainly getting there, of course, but I intend to stick with Dedede a little longer. Especially if the dev team finally patches the character. They've done nearly every other bad character, it's only going to be time before Dedede and Samus get their dues...I hope anyways.

Who knows though, maybe they'll add a DLC fighter that's viable and more interesting than D3.

 

[Soul Train]

Who knows though, maybe they'll add a DLC fighter that's viable and more interesting than D3.

More interesting than D3
More interesting than D3

GASP

 

[Girthquake]

Who knows though, maybe they'll add a DLC fighter that's viable and more interesting than D3.

At this point I'd almost completely drop DDD for King K Rool

 

[KeithTheGeek]

More interesting than D3
More interesting than D3

GASP

Trust me they'll have to work really hard to pull that off. You can't overthrow the king that easily.

 

[Putuk]

More interesting than D3
More interesting than D3

GASP

OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!