Weakness to certain characters?

[UrbanPwner]

possibly too early to be making this but out of love and rage at bayo recently i decided to try to find some counterpicks to her. keep in mind that while some of the MUs have been tested, others are theories. i hope we can share thoughts and work together to find some more possible counters.(this is all subject to change since its been like a week.)
I KNOW ITS EARLY.

however, i do feel like MARTH/LUCINA(tested)/ does a pretty solid job as a temporary counterpick. i say temporary because its early and things change. Bayo's approach. usually bayo uses side b, which ive learned to down b it on reaction.i tried to shield grab but her up is really fast. so that approach is shut down. marth weaves in and out with his swings allowing him to poke at her shield or beat alot of her aerials.
SHIEK(tested). shiek's attacks come out realy fast, bayos attacks generally have a little startup time so shiek usually gets her attacks off first.
NESS(theory). ness usually fishes for a grab at high percents so killing bayo with a grab wouldnt be hard, plus bayo cant slow down ness's pk fire with witch time at certain distances. so ness basically just has to play normally.
PIT/ABYSS(tested)/. both pit and abyss can nullify bayo's side b and aerials with their aerials. most of the time bayo cant witch time arrows which is good for pit. abyss's side b kills earlier than pit's aswell.

About her counter.
ok this is off topic but bayos counter is strong. and i think there are some ways to fight it. a multihit move can trade with whatever move bayo throws after witch time or hit her out of it. stay away from the ground when you expect a witch time to avoid smash attacks unless of course theres a platform near because if there is you are dead. lingering hitboxes such as shiek's nair can clank a smash or other attacks. stay away from the edge of the stage and away from blast zones, bayo can witch time you throw you off the stage then spike you getting an early kill. as for ike or anyone who does NOT snap the edge, bayo can witch time your up b then spike you at really low percents, ikes up b throws his sword up witch can be witch timed and will slow ike down before he can even snap the edge. remember bayos counter may be the best cheap ol counter ever but it is still a counter. bait it and mix up.

 

[Theosmeo]

On the topic of long lasting moves clanking, all Bayo needs to do is jab the person doing the move to cancel it, it really isn't that much of a hinderance to do that. Even if an opponent is high in the air an optimal punish would be witch twist through them to unclank them, Dair spike them, and charge an Usmash at the ground to get them after witch time wears off.

As someone both benefitting from witch time(Bayo co main) and being absolutely demolished by it (Ganon main) I think it isn't OP, grabs and waiting destroy it.

And most bayonetta who know a thing or two won't approach with heel slide, it's too easily shielded, even the up B afterwards.

Btw this should go in the match up or metagame threads

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

On the topic of long lasting moves clanking, all Bayo needs to do is jab the person doing the move to cancel it, it really isn't that much of a hinderance to do that. Even if an opponent is high in the air an optimal punish would be witch twist through them to unclank them, Dair spike them, and charge an Usmash at the ground to get them after witch time wears off.

As someone both benefitting from witch time(Bayo co main) and being absolutely demolished by it (Ganon main) I think it isn't OP, grabs and waiting destroy it.

And most bayonetta who know a thing or two won't approach with heel slide, it's too easily shielded, even the up B afterwards.

Btw this should go in the match up or metagame threads

One also needs to remember that Bayo has WT not just to have WT, but also to compensate for her god awful dodges.

 

[Theosmeo]

One also needs to remember that Bayo has WT not just to have WT, but also to compensate for her god awful dodges.

Yeah, if anything characters who are strong against shield should have an advantage because that's so much better than anything else for her

 

[deepseadiva]

One also needs to remember that Bayo has WT not just to have WT, but also to compensate for her god awful dodges.

What makes them awful? I keep reading this, but I do not understand why.

Are the frames low, or something to do with Bat Within?

 

[Syne49]

What makes them awful? I keep reading this, but I do not understand why.

Are the frames low, or something to do with Bat Within?

It's because while they come out fast they last forever and have a very long vulnerability period after.

 

[deepseadiva]

It's because while they come out fast they last forever and have a very long vulnerability period after.

I haven't seen her frame data yet. Lemme take a look

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

What makes them awful? I keep reading this, but I do not understand why.

Are the frames low, or something to do with Bat Within?

Awful frame data, Samus tier to be exact, even with BW.

 

[Theosmeo]

Most people have rolls that start on frame 4 and go to frame 14-20. Afterwards there is a period of down time before you regain control of the character. The longest one before the patch was 40 frames, more than half a second of time the roll leaves you vulnerable. I'll bet Bayonettas is around 40 as well, if you want to test have them roll at the same time and hold shield, whoever puts up their shield first has a better roll.

Bat within reduces the window of time pre roll from 4 to 2 frames I think, meaning starting a roll is almost a quick as shielding(frame 1)

 

[deepseadiva]

Awful frame data, Samus tier to be exact, even with BW.

KuroganeHammer is saying Bat Within activates FRAME 1

I'm not buying this "bad dodges" mythology. More like best dodges

 

[KuroganeHammer]

KuroganeHammer is saying Bat Within activates FRAME 1

I'm not buying this "bad dodges" mythology. More like best dodges

It's like how melee to smash 4 removed a lot of combos because they added airdodging from tumble state except now Bayonetta can airdodge from tumble on frame 1.

Her rolls are bad tho tbh because you have 5 frames to grab her which are typically roll punishes and bat within is only 3-5 on those.

 

[S_B]

I'm very curious to see how Bayo stacks up against the top tiers.

 

[BlackCephie]

The thing Ive noticed is that even if a character has really great tools vs the tools the Bayo has, they are still susceptible to outright death combos if they get hit even once, especially early on. The other thing ive noticed is that her most optimal death combos are not even complicated. As long as her upb is used AFTER launching an opponent vertically with something else no less than twice (uair, hado ABK twice for example) in only takes like 6 moves to finish someone off. Thats from 0 to 15 percent. And tyeres pretty much a combo with everyones name on it.

Its going to be very important to learn a variety of these kinds of combos in order to get fast kills on different weight classes.