Balanced Yoshi

[Ryusuta]

I would be interested in knowing how different Yoshi mains use his throws. How often do you use each?

Grab release (no throw): A lot... more if there's a chain grab, but still occasionally without.
Forward throw: Often.
Back throw: Often.
Down throw: Occasionally.
Up throw: Rarely.

When?

A very context-dependent question. Pivot-grabbing is an extremely important part of Yoshi's up-close game, having the second-best pivot grab in the game (behind Olimar), so I do a lot of grabbing and throwing. I don't often base my strategy around just that, but I use it quite often.

I feel that Yoshi losing his grab release chain grabs deserves something to compensate for the lost, the way Falco, Pikachu, and DeDeDe have no strategies to make up for not having a chain grab.

Currently, I actually think Yoshi is a little LESS useful in B-Brawl because of his relative lack of grab-release options, and I think this should probably be addressed (I might bring it up in the main topic, who knows).

As it stands, though, I grab, throw in the direction that gives me the best positioning and then heckle my opponents by Egg Tossing them if they go high, attacking them if they try to fight air-to-ground, and regrabbing them if they try to dodge down.

How much would different amounts of extra damage change that?

Almost not at all.

 

[auroreon]

I would be interested in knowing how different Yoshi mains use his throws. How often do you use each? When? How much would different amounts of extra damage change that?

Grabbing is a very important part of Yoshis game, the loss of the CG was a pretty big blow.
Less experienced Yoshis tend to overuse the grab somewhat though, as you advance your play with Yoshi you tend to rely on it a bit less. You learn to mix up the grabs amoungst Yoshis other options.
That said, grabs are a very integral part of Yoshi play and grabbing is used a lot. I probably don't need to tell you that the pivot grab is Yoshis answer to many situations.

The first thing to know is that a good Yoshi will mix up all of the throws and not rely too heavily on any perticular option from a grab.

Uthrow: Probably the least used throw, not much you can do with this, its main advantage is getting the opponant in the air above you to put Yoshi at an advantaged position.

Dthrow: Pretty decent throw but deffinatly needs more damage. A Dthrow > DownB can work very occaisionally and net you a supprise kill. Also gets them in the air and in a good position for Eggtoss, Uair/Usmash ect.

Bthrow: I probably use this most out of the throw, Bthrow > grab often works as a supprise. Also good for getting the opponant off stage or just building a distance between you for Eggtoss.

Fthrow: Mostly the same as Bthrow, also used pretty often.

Grab-Release: Obviously the CG in vBrawl makes this extremely useful. Grab release can put certain different characters in position for different follow ups such as egg tosses, Usmash, Uair, Dash attack ect. At the edge Grab release > Fair spike on a few characters makes for an awesome kill occaisionally. Grab release is less useful in bBrawl obviously, but still used quite a bit.

I can't see extra damage on his throws changing how often or when they are used at all. Could be a slightly bigger incentive to get the grab but really I cant see grab being relied on any more than it is already.

 

[Depster]

extra damage on throws would just make his throws better, so basically make him better, so it wouldn't change our playstyle at all

 

[Metatitan]

Here are some changes yoshi should have:
A back throw like Ness' (goodbye killing issues)
More damage on throws
More damage on tilts and Uair and Nair
More knockback on Nair
More knockback on Uair
Way less frames to drop shield

Take away the stupid Fair thing and only keep the side B momentum canceling plus this stuff and it shouldn't affect our metagame really. Yoshi is always grabbing, more damage would just make him better. More damage on Uair and Nair helps his comboes and more knockback helps him KO. A back throw as strong as Ness' gives him a consistent finisher as neither Uair or Nair are very consistent to land with (Nair must be mindgamed in and for Uair your opponent has to be above you). More damage on tilts helps him wrack up damage faster and dropping his shield as fast as everyone else finally gives him a solid OoS game. He keeps his pierce-resistant shield and lacks the ability to jump out of it.

 

[Chaco]

If we got more knockback on Nair....rising Nair would be like Snake Ftilt. <3

Also, I agree. We need a throw with killing potential.

Uair sex kick properties. Lmfao. That would be amazing.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Yoshi with Ness's bthrow wouldn't be good. He'd be broken. Only one character can have Ness's bthrow, and that character is Ness. Olimar is the only other character who even comes close to that, and he's the single most throw-centric character in the game who also has to mess with pikmin colors to have a kill throw. You may notice in general that real kill throws (as opposed to throws that kill at like 180%) are VERY rare in Brawl. I'm hesitant to make any throws into real kill throws that weren't already, due to how special they are.

Also, in general, that list of changes just makes Yoshi into every other character. Consistent finishers, a good shield, and a series of buffs to the style of moves everyone else uses... Yoshi is about not having an OoS game, struggling to kill, and living forever while attacking in a pretty unusual way (overhead projectile, pivot grabs, etc.). Balancing the cast is our goal, but we're not going to do anything to homogenize them.

I struggle to understand why Yoshi players would hate the fair change. It's free follow ups. It was a bit overadvertised, but there's no way anyone could possibly think the old behavior was better (or even very useful at all for Yoshi).

Also, there's no way at all Yoshi is worse in Bbrawl than in standard Brawl right now. We gave Yoshi a LOT of stuff; grab release isn't as useful as being more survivable than Wario, Snake, and King Dedede. That's before you consider all the assorted power boosts, which were decidedly non-trivial... Grab release is obviously pretty degenerate either way; I want to be clear to anyone with lingering regrets that not removing it was never on the table. I would point out that if you just want the positional advantage, you can feel free to use grab release still (Yoshi can still force jump breaks). You just won't have any frame advantage which probably makes it useless compared to fthrow, but it's there.

 

[bigman40]

Lol @ this thread. Apparently, people can't think about ho to make characters balanced these days.

 

[Chaco]

I'm just joking, lol. Everything that I've been serious about I talked to Thinkaman to.

 

[bigman40]

I'm just joking, lol. Everything that I've been serious about I talked to Thinkaman to.

I didn't name people. You don't need to justify yourself if you know that you haven't attempted broken buffing.

 

[Ryusuta]

Yoshi with Ness's bthrow wouldn't be good. He'd be broken. Only one character can have Ness's bthrow, and that character is Ness. Olimar is the only other character who even comes close to that, and he's the single most throw-centric character in the game who also has to mess with pikmin colors to have a kill throw. You may notice in general that real kill throws (as opposed to throws that kill at like 180%) are VERY rare in Brawl. I'm hesitant to make any throws into real kill throws that weren't already, due to how special they are.

Also, in general, that list of changes just makes Yoshi into every other character. Consistent finishers, a good shield, and a series of buffs to the style of moves everyone else uses... Yoshi is about not having an OoS game, struggling to kill, and living forever while attacking in a pretty unusual way (overhead projectile, pivot grabs, etc.). Balancing the cast is our goal, but we're not going to do anything to homogenize them.

I struggle to understand why Yoshi players would hate the fair change. It's free follow ups. It was a bit overadvertised, but there's no way anyone could possibly think the old behavior was better (or even very useful at all for Yoshi).

Also, there's no way at all Yoshi is worse in Bbrawl than in standard Brawl right now. We gave Yoshi a LOT of stuff; grab release isn't as useful as being more survivable than Wario, Snake, and King Dedede. That's before you consider all the assorted power boosts, which were decidedly non-trivial... Grab release is obviously pretty degenerate either way; I want to be clear to anyone with lingering regrets that not removing it was never on the table. I would point out that if you just want the positional advantage, you can feel free to use grab release still (Yoshi can still force jump breaks). You just won't have any frame advantage which probably makes it useless compared to fthrow, but it's there.

Dude, you're asking the YOSHI PLAYERS what they think about the changes to the character THEY USE.

Why are you even bothering to ask them about it if you're not paying attention to what they say?

Grab release is a LOT more important to Yoshi's play style than you're giving it credit for. Not only that, but you gave EVERY OTHER CONSISTENT CHAIN-GRABBER IN THE GAME a replacement for their chain grabs, except for Yoshi. Pikachu, Falco, DeDeDe, Ice Climbers... they ALL got replacement techniques for the chain grab. Why not Yoshi?

You said that your refusal to change PT's changing attributes is because it would fundamentally change the way he's intended to play. However, getting rid of Yoshi's grab-release options does the same thing.

I'm actually half-tempted to say that I'd rather play Yoshi pre-BBrawl in the BBrawl setting than this version, honestly.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

Orion nailed it.

I too would rather play vBrawl Yoshi than BBrawl Yoshi.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I am listening, but listening doesn't mean blindly doing what people want. We both always ask why and for more detailed information because, to be honest, we're really looking to understand your experiences more than your opinions. Anyone who knows anything about game design could tell you that you can't just do what players want; game design by democracy DOES NOT WORK. You always get a bad game that way; it's a guarantee. I also do defend all of our decisions because, if someone disagrees with them, them explaining their experiences is a filter. It first lets me see if their opinion is based on actual play (if it's not, it's basically worthless; armchair balancers need to be filtered out and ignored with extreme prejudice), and then it lets me actually understand the issues they are running into (which may be very different from the issues they think they are having). We also understand that most low tier mains are going to have ideas about how they wish their character played which we have to be careful to avoid; we are trying to make the cast balanced, not made into the dream characters of assorted players (that is, just like in standard Brawl, you are expected to accept that you won't like everything about any character). Of course, the last issue is that people usually don't think through all the implications of what they suggest; their suggestion may be very fair against Meta Knight on Final Destination, but what if it's broken against Ganondorf on Mario Circuit?

There is always a risk with this project that by being open with our development process we're going to make people mad, but this is what any competent game development looks like. Most developers just have very secretive, closed development and willfully ignore fans in order for people not to catch on. We've chosen to forsake this path, and I only hope you can appreciate the overall product even if you find the process irritating. The short version is that I do care what people think and do take their opinions very seriously, but in the interest of making the best game possible (which I care about more than making people happy), I'm going to argue constantly and be very cautious in what changes actually make it into the game. I might even argue things I don't actually agree with just to force people to defend their positions or because I get a sense it's for the best of the project (I will disclose that both Thinkaman and I have publicly argued for things we individually personally disagree with since it was the project's decision).

Consider why the grab release stuff absolutely has to go, as a specific point.

1. It's an infinite on Wario. Seriously, it's an infinite on Wario. Infinites are never acceptable for any reason. The only reason no one cares in standard Brawl is because Wario is about a million times better than Yoshi. If this stays in, at the very least, the fact that Wario is a million times better than Yoshi would have to be preserved... which is obviously not good. Yoshi needs to be good, and him being good and him having an infinite on Wario are incompatible.

2. It extremely abuses several stages. Wall and walk-off stages are going to be legal in Bbrawl, and this makes Yoshi extremely overpowered in lots of matchups on them. You may not care about Corneria, Onett, and Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 (most players don't seem to), but they are a part of this game that will be balanced around.

3. It's EXTREMELY polarizing. For all the great stuff it gives you against guys like Meta Knight, you do realize it gives you approximately nothing against guys like Mr. Game & Watch, right? Is there any real way to buff Yoshi around this so his matchups with the guys grab release doesn't work on are close to even without making the others just totally broken in his favor?

There is a BIG difference between PT's switching and things like grab release because PT's switching is a personal disadvantage (IMO actually an advantage) that plays out mostly evenly across the board (it hurts him more against high mobility characters, but it's not that big of a deal). In no case are the PT mechanics degenerate. The grab release is very uneven, and it leads to lots of degeneracies. I understand very, very well how good it is for Yoshi; it's probably the best thing about Yoshi in standard Brawl. It's just not preservable.

As per what Yoshi got to compensate, I'm not seeing where he got nothing. Egg Braking was in standard Brawl but nearly useless due to how unsafe entering helpless fall state offstage is, to say the least. It's now extremely good and makes Yoshi ridiculously survivable (it even fits into his more general game well since "fortitude" was always one of his big things). Yoshi's tilts and dash attack are just plain more rewarding with more damage. Yoshi now has another kill option in his dsmash. Yoshi has that quirky new fair mechanic which, if you really must know why we so adamantly defend it, is because an internal tester who plays Yoshi loved it and was able to do a lot of very interesting things with it, and most of the arguments against it seem more theoretical than based off experience (usually involving the word "unnecessary" which baffles me since nothing is necessary). Yoshi's pummel is buffed, and in the next release so far we have plans to increase the damage on his uthrow and dthrow, bringing them to parity damage-wise with his fthrow and bthrow (actually 8% damage from uthrow and 7% from dthrow as of the last internal build, obviously incomplete and unofficial and subject to change at any time). With the last changes, Yoshi's overall grab game is probably not even nerfed. He can't grab release cg -> usmash, but he does get good damage and some positional advantage, and he can do it on the entire cast, not just half of it (consider the benefits averaged across the cast).

I want to be clear that Yoshi input HAS influenced us quite a bit on how we approach Yoshi. Let me lay out the effects it has already had.

-When we released, we (or at least I) believed Yoshi to be one of the weaker characters, but he was a big unknown in a lot of ways. The power of Egg Braking in particular was really fleshed out by the community's testing, and it became pretty clear that Yoshi wasn't particularly bad.
-The issue of Yoshi's tilts having reduced potential for follow up purposes due to the damage buffs was something we hadn't considered. Notice a fix for this issue is already publicly available in the Genesis build.
-We already knew throws were very big for Yoshi and gave him a pummel buff to partially compensate for the loss of grab release. Seeing Yoshi players discuss their undying love of pivot grabs some more has convinced us to make throw buffs on Yoshi a priority for the standard release.

Just looking at it objectively, in terms of whole packages, I don't understand how any rational person could believe Bbrawl Yoshi is less effective at winning matches than standard Brawl Yoshi. It's just obviously not the case; the buffs are too big.

Sorry to be so forward with you and aggressive, but you seem to be demanding an explanation. I'm honestly not looking to hurt any feelings at any point, but like I've said before, I care about making a good game more than I care about making people happy.

 

[Ryusuta]

I am listening, but listening doesn't mean blindly doing what people want. We both always ask why and for more detailed information because, to be honest, we're really looking to understand your experiences more than your opinions. Anyone who knows anything about game design could tell you that you can't just do what players want; game design by democracy DOES NOT WORK. You always get a bad game that way; it's a guarantee.

OBJECTION!

I call to the stand Starcraft and Team Fortress 2! Those games have been REPEATEDLY tweaked based on popular opinion on game balance, and they're both EXTREMELY popular and satisfying games to this day.

I also do defend all of our decisions because, if someone disagrees with them, them explaining their experiences is a filter. It first lets me see if their opinion is based on actual play (if it's not, it's basically worthless; armchair balancers need to be filtered out and ignored with extreme prejudice),

No offense, but it seems you tend to do that anyway. I haven't seen you concede anything about anything on any subject at all. And I've been watching.

and then it lets me actually understand the issues they are running into (which may be very different from the issues they think they are having). We also understand that most low tier mains are going to have ideas about how they wish their character played which we have to be careful to avoid; we are trying to make the cast balanced, not made into the dream characters of assorted players (that is, just like in standard Brawl, you are expected to accept that you won't like everything about any character).

I'm just on the border of calling this hypocritical. On the one hand you wave your banner around saying that this is all about balancing the game. While at the EXACT SAME TIME you say that your key goal is to not change the core play style of the characters.

With Pokemon Trainer, you won't balance his ******** gameplay mechanic, because you claim that that's not how the character is supposed to play.

Okay, fine.

Then don't go telling me that it's suddenly okay to COMPLETELY CHANGE one of the core elements to Yoshi's gameplay in the name of balance. It's the ultimate double-standard. It's the DEFINITION of a double-standard.

Of course, the last issue is that people usually don't think through all the implications of what they suggest; their suggestion may be very fair against Meta Knight on Final Destination, but what if it's broken against Ganondorf on Mario Circuit?

Newsflash: no matter how much tinkering and playing around you try to do with the characters, there will always... always... ALWAYS be lopsided matchups. Period, end of story, written in stone, DONE. As long as one character is different from another, there will always be character rankings and matchups.

There is always a risk with this project that by being open with our development process we're going to make people mad, but this is what any competent game development looks like.

See, it's not the fact that you're making mistakes that's ticking people off. It's the fact that you make mistakes, ask people their opinions on it, then say their opinions are wrong even though they're clearly more familiar with the character than you, and say that you were right the whole time.

I'm not telling you to listen to every single suggestion that comes your way. I'm asking you to think about what's being said and yes... weigh in popular opinions more heavily. Because in this case, the masses generally DO know what they're talking about.

Most developers just have very secretive, closed development and willfully ignore fans in order for people not to catch on.

Hey, it worked for Sonic Team, right?

We've chosen to forsake this path, and I only hope you can appreciate the overall product even if you find the process irritating. The short version is that I do care what people think and do take their opinions very seriously, but in the interest of making the best game possible (which I care about more than making people happy), I'm going to argue constantly and be very cautious in what changes actually make it into the game.

I understand this part of things. These codes are your baby, and you don't like people getting their unwashed hands all over your pet project. I get it. But there's a difference between some random nutjob coming in and saying "OMG SNAEK SUX NOW1! BUFF HIZ UTILITT 100X!!!1" and people that use Yoshi saying "Wait a minute. Grab releases are part of Yoshi's game. This loss should be compensated for, lest Yoshi lose part of what makes him original as a character."

Because I want to stress again, buffing Yoshi in other areas that Yoshi doesn't use anyway in normal Brawl isn't the same thing.

1. It's an infinite on Wario. Seriously, it's an infinite on Wario. Infinites are never acceptable for any reason.

Okay... I'm sorry, but I'm calling you to task here. What exactly is YOUR fighting game tournament experience? Just from this statement, I'm going to say... probably not a lot.

Infinites are almost UNILATERALLY ALLOWED in most major fighting game tournaments. It sucks for the person that gets caught in them, but it doesn't make them "cheap" or "unfair."

I realize that I could go into a slippery slope, here (since ICs are just itching to get THEIR infinites back), but it's true.

That having been said, I didn't suggest giving grab release attacks back, necessarily. I asked for you to give a reliable substitute, the way you gave all the other major chain-grabbers.

Or, failing that, change Wario's individual break animation. I know that is completely possible and practical to do.

The only reason no one cares in standard Brawl is because Wario is about a million times better than Yoshi. If this stays in, at the very least, the fact that Wario is a million times better than Yoshi would have to be preserved... which is obviously not good. Yoshi needs to be good, and him being good and him having an infinite on Wario are incompatible.

Not only is this flawed for reasons I've already outlined, but I'm just going to have to lay this on the line, here...

BBrawl Yoshi, as he stands right now, sucks. Yes, he's got Egg Roll canceling and some minor attack buffs, but he's one gigantic, predictable, suck-*** punching bag. He's not better than vBrawl Yoshi, he's WORSE.

3. It's EXTREMELY polarizing. For all the great stuff it gives you against guys like Meta Knight, you do realize it gives you approximately nothing against guys like Mr. Game & Watch, right?

Wrong. I grab release people that I don't have a CG on for positioning and GR attacks all the freaking time. Game & Watch is a good example, as is R.O.B. Granted, I'll tend to throw them quite often, too, but grab-release is a very, VERY important option for Yoshi, since it's almost always a jump break.

Is there any real way to buff Yoshi around this so his matchups with the guys grab release doesn't work on are close to even without making the others just totally broken in his favor?

Well, first... get it out of your head that you'll always make all matches close to even all the time. It will NEVER happen.

Let me repeat that for you. It will NEVER happen.

Clearer? Good.

Really, the only TRUE options for replacing his grab release stuff would be to buff his throws. Damage for one, knockback for another (for instance). That would make his amazing pivot grab important to his game again, and not completely change Yoshi so that grabbing is still nothing to just laugh off (the way it is in BBrawl).

There is a BIG difference between PT's switching and things like grab release because PT's switching is a personal disadvantage (IMO actually an advantage) that plays out mostly evenly across the board (it hurts him more against high mobility characters, but it's not that big of a deal). In no case are the PT mechanics degenerate.

A weakness that other characters can exploit, forcing him to use a special move with no input on the player's behalf, and forcing him to turn match-ups against his favor...

Do you really have no concept of how this is a bad thing?

The grab release is very uneven, and it leads to lots of degeneracies. I understand very, very well how good it is for Yoshi; it's probably the best thing about Yoshi in standard Brawl. It's just not preservable.

Correction: You just don't personally like it, so you don't give a **** if it's gone and Yoshi becomes a suck-fest for it.

As per what Yoshi got to compensate, I'm not seeing where he got nothing. Egg Braking was in standard Brawl but nearly useless due to how unsafe entering helpless fall state offstage is, to say the least. It's now extremely good and makes Yoshi ridiculously survivable (it even fits into his more general game well since "fortitude" was always one of his big things). Yoshi's tilts and dash attack are just plain more rewarding with more damage. Yoshi now has another kill option in his dsmash. Yoshi has that quirky new fair mechanic which, if you really must know why we so adamantly defend it, is because an internal tester who plays Yoshi loved it and was able to do a lot of very interesting things with it, and most of the arguments against it seem more theoretical than based off experience (usually involving the word "unnecessary" which baffles me since nothing is necessary).

NONE of these things acting as a replacement for his grab game, thereby fundamentally changing the way people use him as a character and therefore going against the one of the key goals of your project, which you seem so quick to defend.

Yoshi's pummel is buffed, and in the next release so far we have plans to increase the damage on his uthrow and dthrow, bringing them to parity damage-wise with his fthrow and bthrow (actually 8% damage from uthrow and 7% from dthrow as of the last internal build, obviously incomplete and unofficial and subject to change at any time).

*Solemnly blows a party favor once and releases a helium balloon*

With the last changes, Yoshi's overall grab game is probably not even nerfed. He can't grab release cg -> usmash, but he does get good damage and some positional advantage, and he can do it on the entire cast, not just half of it (consider the benefits averaged across the cast).

Okay, I'll go ahead and translate that. What you just said in political speak is, "Although his grab release is bad against the people it was useful against before... it's still bad against the characters it was always bad on... therefore... um... good?"

I want to be clear that Yoshi input HAS influenced us quite a bit on how we approach Yoshi. Let me lay out the effects it has already had.

-When we released, we (or at least I) believed Yoshi to be one of the weaker characters, but he was a big unknown in a lot of ways. The power of Egg Braking in particular was really fleshed out by the community's testing, and it became pretty clear that Yoshi wasn't particularly bad.
-The issue of Yoshi's tilts having reduced potential for follow up purposes due to the damage buffs was something we hadn't considered. Notice a fix for this issue is already publicly available in the Genesis build.
-We already knew throws were very big for Yoshi and gave him a pummel buff to partially compensate for the loss of grab release. Seeing Yoshi players discuss their undying love of pivot grabs some more has convinced us to make throw buffs on Yoshi a priority for the standard release.

Throw buffs would indeed be helpful. I think a KO-potential throw (160%+) would be more than fair.

Just looking at it objectively, in terms of whole packages, I don't understand how any rational person could believe Bbrawl Yoshi is less effective at winning matches than standard Brawl Yoshi. It's just obviously not the case; the buffs are too big.

You just obviously don't understand what makes a good Yoshi good and what things Yoshi doesn't give a crap about. Watch some of Bwett or Scatz' Yoshi videos sometime.

Sorry to be so forward with you and aggressive, but you seem to be demanding an explanation. I'm honestly not looking to hurt any feelings at any point, but like I've said before, I care about making a good game more than I care about making people happy.

By ignoring good advice, you do neither.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

OBJECTION!

I call to the stand Starcraft and Team Fortress 2! Those games have been REPEATEDLY tweaked based on popular opinion on game balance, and they're both EXTREMELY popular and satisfying games to this day.

Okay, I'm going to reply to this part just because I don't know how familiar both Thinkaman and AA are with these two games and their development team. I myself am quite familiar with VALVe, through being a huge fan of a lot of their products, a long time player of TF2, and a lurker of the Steam Powered TF2 boards. To be quite honest, this is blatantly false; VALVe does NOT balance based on the popular perception of balance. At all. As a development team, they have their own goals and ideas set on what makes a balanced shooter and how to go about tweaking class aspects that seem potentially unbalanced. What VALVe is know for is their huge incorporating of FEEDBACK suggestions from the community. However, they still have the final word on everything they consider, and despite the community demanding to nerf the pyros or give certain unlocks and whatnot, VALVe won't implement these changes no matter how hugely the demand for it if they don't think it helps or maintain balance.

The same thing is going on with Thinkaman and AmazingAmpharos. They DO recognize a lot of your feedback and want to work with good suggestions, but not everyone has good suggestions in regards to balance. If your suggested changes don't fit with their idea of how to make Brawl balanced, they simply won't do it. They SHOULDN'T base it on the popular opinion. That's something VALVe doesn't do either, despite you bringing it up.

I can't speak for Starcraft's team, but I would imagine their discretion is the final word in balancing as well.

Feedback =/= Game design by democracy


I also have a looooot of issues with quite a bit more of your post, but this is really up to AA+Thinkaman to address. I just wanted to point out something that was wrong that they may not have covered (though they may have, but I saved some time in that case at least!).

 

[Ryusuta]

You seem to have misinterpreted what I said.

In the case of a game like Team Fortress 2, if there is something blatantly wrong with an update, there have been several times in which they hear about it from the players themselves and fix the issue based on their suggestions.

Most recently, the new Spy watches were both heavily adjusted, due almost entirely to player feedback on them. There have been several instances of this throughout TF2's history, as well (Backburner, Natascha, etc.).

You seem to think that I'm saying that these Valve and Blizzard cater to every single whim of the fans, which isn't the case. I'm saying that they do LISTEN to what's being said, and they take good advice regarding game balance. Neither of these things has caused them harm.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

And I'm saying that AmazingAmpharos and Thinkaman are doing the same thing. Dins Fire accidentally doesn't have freefall? It's been pointed out and removed for the standard update. They fix the unintended side effects of their releases very much the same way based on FEEDBACK given to them by players. I don't see how this is the least bit different from what VALVe does.

So I really wonder why you brought that up as an objection, seeing as it's the same thing they are both doing with BBrawl.

 

[00000]

I am absolutely astounded at AA's patience.

Sir 0rion, you would do well to not be so conceited.

 

[Shiri]

I am absolutely astounded at AA's patience.

Sir 0rion, you would do well to not be so conceited.

Quiet, you. They're having a nice passionate discussion that is fairly civil.

Don't go detracting from it with your insults, please.

 

[00000]

Quiet, you. They're having a nice passionate discussion that is fairly civil.

Don't go detracting from it with your insults, please.

I see nothing wrong nor detracting in pointing out the conceit in Sir 0rion's style of speech.

From that exceedingly (and needlessly) drawn out text the only relevant point that Sir 0rion has made is that Yoshi's grab/throw should be buffed, and even that point is of dubious relevance, as AA has already outlined plans to do so.

 

[Thinkaman]

I am going to address what I understand are Orion's two main concerns, then go back to discussing Yoshi:

1. Design by Democracy

Committees fail at almost everything. A lot. We could have thrown together a dream team of the best players of each main, randomly proposed and voted on changes, and called whatever came out "balance".

Only someone who has never actually worked with other human beings on a major project could suspect that this would be a remotely good idea.

Do you understand that Valve and Blizzard explicitly do NOT let players design their own game, and that is why they are so successful? They are extremely secretive about their updates. Heck, if Ampharos and I had the sort of robust data collection system they had, we might be really secretive too. Instead, we have smashboards, so here we are, talking to players.

We have been careful to never provide the illusion that we are going to going to make changes just because people suggest them. Very, very few changes suggested in the main thread are even remotely good, no way to deny it. However, we listen to 100% of the feedback, and a very large amount of that directly affects what we do implement.

I had/have a teacher for human computer interaction, who supervised a game development team I led last year. Her most valuable advice was how to perform the best, most useful user testing: What you look for, what you listen for, the questions you ask, ect. The most profound single thing she told us was "Only listen to how they feel and think about the game, their unique perspective on it. Do not ask for what they would do differently, and ignore most direct suggestions. Giving people exactly what they ask for is surprisingly ineffective."

That does not mean you give people things they do not want or that make them unhappy. Example? Point number two...

2. Yoshi's Chaingrab

Yoshi's chaingrab made him unique. However, it only worked on a couple characters, which it insta-killed on walk-offs.

King Dedede was certainly not allowed to keep an infinite on five characters starting at medium percents. If walk-offs are legal, why would we allow Yoshi to have inescapable death from any grab on Meta Knight, Lucas, and Squirtle?

Did we really want to keep Yoshi a mediocre, limited character who just happened to have 100/0 matchup on a few characters on a few stages? That's not balance, that's imbalance.

 

[Ryusuta]

Yoshi's chaingrab didn't work on a "couple" of characters. It worked on Lucas, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Diddy Kong, Donkey Kong, Zero Suit Samus, Bowser, Ganon, Captain Falcon, Falco, DeDeDe, Snake, Squirtle, Charizard, and Wario. It also gave potential grab-release options to additional characters like Ike, Wolf, Sonic, R.O.B., and Game & Watch.

This is hardly a random, situational tactic we're talking about.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

That is still only a couple of characters, not to mention that doesn't address the point of it being unbalanced on walkoff stages. Also, nothing was guaranteed on G&W (=3=)

AA and Thinkaman are already doing something to boost his grab game, as they noted. I don't see what the issue is anymore, as they already have some things planned to make up for the loss of this character specific strategy.

 

[Ryusuta]

That is still only a couple of characters,

Are we defining "a couple" the same way? Nearly half the cast is not what I'd call "a couple" characters.

not to mention that doesn't address the point of it being unbalanced on walkoff stages. Also, nothing was guaranteed on G&W (=3=)

*Checks my post*

*Ctrl + F "guaranteed"*

"Phrase not found"

AA and Thinkaman are already doing something to boost his grab game, as they noted. I don't see what the issue is anymore, as they already have some things planned to make up for the loss of this character specific strategy.

If you don't see what the issue is anymore, why are you continuing the discussion?

For me, the discussion at this point is entirely academic. Because his throw game is getting buffed, for me the current discussion is more about clarifying the misnomers regarding his vBrawl chain grabs, not asking for changes.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

If anything, that's actually pointless. They know the CGs well enough.
Also, you said it gave potential grab release options on G&W. That's akin to saying Uthrow -> Bowserbomb works if they do **** wrong. Nothing can ever happen to G&W if he does things right, so even noting it is a little silly.

You should just chime in your own buff suggestions. That would be a load more helpful to them <3

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

I don't see how you guys don't understand what Orion is trying to say. He is not saying to put CGs back. He is suggesting that you add a feature to Yoshi's throws to replace his CG. The same way how D3's dthrow now spikes, the same way how Falco's new back throw can add to his combo game, the same way Pika can combo out of his throws as well. Just adding damage to Yoshi's throws doesn't replace his CG, it just adds damage. Seeing as D3, Falco, and Pika now have unique characteristics to their throws to replace their CG, Yoshi should have some too.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

All those features you mentioned.... Don't do those things anymore. Dedede doesn't spike, Falco's Bthrow is the same again, and Pika's Uthrow is back to normal.

 

[Metatitan]

I saw AA mention yoshi having the infinite on wario and saying it had to go. I laughed, really REALLY hard. The only stage it works on is Final Destination, and NOBODY performs the infinite because it takes like 5 minutes to 0-death him. We just up smash for damage instead. On stages like smashville, the wario can time his grab release to land on the platform. The positioning is extremely difficult on platformed stages, and warios ban Final Destination on Yoshi anyways, so why remove his grab release?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

All those features you mentioned.... Don't do those things anymore. Dedede doesn't spike, Falco's Bthrow is the same again, and Pika's Uthrow is back to normal.

Not quite accurate; King Dedede's dthrow still kinda spikes, and Falco's bthrow wasn't reverted (it's just too cool). Pikachu's uthrow is completely reverted though, and Pikachu is nothing but happy for it.

 

[Naucitos]

I saw AA mention yoshi having the infinite on wario and saying it had to go. I laughed, really REALLY hard. The only stage it works on is Final Destination, and NOBODY performs the infinite because it takes like 5 minutes to 0-death him. We just up smash for damage instead. On stages like smashville, the wario can time his grab release to land on the platform. The positioning is extremely difficult on platformed stages, and warios ban Final Destination on Yoshi anyways, so why remove his grab release?

Thats not true at all, it works on most if not all stages, and the fact that it takes 5 minutes to perform is inconsequential, and probably evn a good thing for yoshi

 

[Depster]

Who here plays the wario matchup with the sole purpose of getting the infinite going?

I try maybe once a match to **** a stock like that, and I hardly get to grab warios anyway because they are air camping the whole time. The infinite has been considered not even close to game breaking by both the Yoshi and Wario communties for a while, anyways. The only good things are that we can follow up with a few attacks.

 

[Ryusuta]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Wario players laugh at people that think they're going to fighting entirely by grabbing.

A good Wario player is going to get grabbed MAYBE once a match, even by Yoshi. MAYBE. Meanwhile, you're getting your *** handed to you by his ridiculous aerial game, and even if you DO grab him, the timing is relatively strict to infinite him up to the point where he can be KOed. Not impossible, but somewhat difficult. And if you mess up a regrab, it's back to your ***-kicking, courtesy of his aerial acrobatics.

 

[Depster]

I agree totally

 

[00000]

Yoshi's grab game is going to be buffed, so all of your points are basically null and void.

And stop talking about his CG because it is going to be removed for reasons you took the liberty to ignore.

 

[Shiri]

Well...

...nevermind.

 

[Ryusuta]

To be honest, 00000, it seems like the only person that's not paying attention to what's being said is you. It's not in my style to tell people "STFU/GTFO" even when I disagree with them, but it would really behoove you to stop jumping in with irrelevant name-calling and trolling.

We've all established that CG is going to be removed and replaced with throw buffs. I think everyone is clear on that.

The discussion at this point is a purely academic one, talking about just what his CG does/doesn't bring to the table in vBrawl compared to his abilities in BBrawl.

You seem to be highly critical the things being said here, and that's fine. But I think instead of reading two sentences and jumping to conclusions, you should probably sit back, cool your jets, and listen rather than talk. If you don't want to do that, that's fine, too. Like I said, I have a principle against telling people that their opinions have no place here. I think EVERYONE should have a chance to get their thoughts in, whether I agree with them or not. This is just some friendly advice on my part.

 

[00000]

To be honest, 00000, it seems like the only person that's not paying attention to what's being said is you. It's not in my style to tell people "STFU/GTFO" even when I disagree with them, but it would really behoove you to stop jumping in with irrelevant name-calling and trolling.

We've all established that CG is going to be removed and replaced with throw buffs. I think everyone is clear on that.

The discussion at this point is a purely academic one, talking about just what his CG does/doesn't bring to the table in vBrawl compared to his abilities in BBrawl.

You seem to be highly critical the things being said here, and that's fine. But I think instead of reading two sentences and jumping to conclusions, you should probably sit back, cool your jets, and listen rather than talk. If you don't want to do that, that's fine, too. Like I said, I have a principle against telling people that their opinions have no place here. I think EVERYONE should have a chance to get their thoughts in, whether I agree with them or not. This is just some friendly advice on my part.

It's not as though I troll for the sake of trolling, though. It's my honest, sincere thought. Apparently that makes me a jerk, I'll have to fix that problem sometime in the name of civility and grace. You've done a bit of trolling yourself, albeit not as straightforwardly.

You're talking as though I didn't listen, but I did. I read entire walls of text. And I posted my conclusions. Since you are certain that I missed what was being said, tell me what I missed, not just that I missed it, as that would be a lot more helpful.

 

[indigestible_wad]

Yoshi's grab game is going to be buffed, so all of your points are basically null and void.

The point is that his grab game is not being buffed in a way that allows it to keep its relative usefulness. Or at least that's what I gather.

 

[Shiri]

Your name is super disgusting, by the way. :D

 

[Chaco]

I agree Shiri....I agree.

 

[SOVAman]

Your name is super disgusting, by the way. :D

you mad