Breaking Mario: Execution

[Sleek Media]

Ice Climbers, Diddy, or Olimar are our easiest top tier matches. Snake is like -1 or -2, he's probably one of the worst.

Here is a list of how hard top tier is for us, from the hardest at the top and the easiest at the bottom.

MK
----------------
Falco
Marth/Snake
----------------
Wario
----------------
Pikachu
Olimar/Diddy

I even separated it into tiers of difficulty. Camping sucks balls with Mario and we need to know that. It doesn't work better than anything else against most of the case, if not all of the cast. You're better off just playing passive defensively.

Whatever. I've explained this before. If you don't wanna try it yourself, have fun struggling against Snake. He's not that tough, and unlike a certain five other characters, not unbeatable.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

all of those are -2 XD

cept oli.

lol. No they're not. MK is arguably -3, Falco, Marth, and Snake are -2. Wario is -1, Oli, ICs, and Diddy are closer to 0 than -1. I don't know what the hell you are coming up with, pretty much every Diddy, Oli, and Pika player I've ever met agree with those numbers. Also, I forgot to put Ice Climbers, which are anywhere from 0 to 1, I haven't decided yet.

And Sleek, you can say characters are unbeatable all you want. But as long as I continue to not struggle against these "unbeatable" characters, they're obviously not unbeatable.

Although Snake may be closer to -1, he is nowhere near the easiest top tier for Mario to handle. I'm sorry if you are incapable of handling yourself against a variety of top tiers, but it's not really that hard. It's probably your playstyle.

We can argue all day trying to state that our opinons are facts, but the fact of the matter is that my opinions are better than yours and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it.

 

[Sleek Media]

I'm not arguing. I'm just sayin', learn to use fireballs. He's nowhere near Falco and Marth for us. The fact that you'd even group them together just shows how little experience you have with strong players. So have fun with those opinions, brah.

 

[Omari]

Problem is, they're...opinions. Yes, everyone's entitled to having their own opinions but problems occur when you mistake them to be facts (proof). What's the point of having a discussion if you're going to resume debating what you think to be true? There's none (no reason).

Honestly, we as a community can only come but so close to the ideal number for each MU. Personally, it's difficult to put an exact number on a MU but I agree with characters having an advantage (+/-/= etc) in certain match-ups.

*The only reason I'm posting is because this is my thread & I refuse to have members debating (call it w/e you'd like) over BS. The Breaking Mario series was created to improve not only Mario, but how smashers' mindsets.

@Vato Break: Why do you believe Mario should full jab Snake? What benefits are we gaining from doing so (followups/setups/traps please explain)?

I'm aware that you're a damn good smasher but it helps me think even better when I understand not just when, what, how etc but why most of all. Thanks

BTW I<3U.

Alls: Before going in the wrong direction, let's steer back on track by discussing guaranteed combos (advanced only) & how to land/setup these useful devastating blows.

 

[vato_break]

jab cancels are not guareenteed against snake, you cant afford to mess up or youll take 20%+. jab puts snake in a range when sh fireball is safe, and if near an edge can lead to early gimps.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Full jab also refreshes our f-air.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I'm not arguing. I'm just sayin', learn to use fireballs. He's nowhere near Falco and Marth for us. The fact that you'd even group them together just shows how little experience you have with strong players. So have fun with those opinions, brah.

Assuming I don't know how to use fireballs without ever having played against me or seen me play just shows how little you know about me. I've played against strong players. Strong Falcos, strong Marths, and strong Snakes.

In that regard, I could just say you are obviously a bad player. The fact that you'd even say that we have unwinnable matchups just shows you don't know how to play.

See what I did there.

 

[Sleek Media]

Assuming I don't know how to use fireballs without ever having played against me or seen me play just shows how little you know about me. I've played against strong players. Strong Falcos, strong Marths, and strong Snakes.

In that regard, I could just say you are obviously a bad player. The fact that you'd even say that we have unwinnable matchups just shows you don't know how to play.

See what I did there.

You're so pro, I can't argue with that. Taking exactly what I said and flipping it around. That's serious debate skill right there. I mean, if you can debate with such precision and elegance, I can't even imagine how beast your Mario must be.

Except that you don't even understand why Marth shuts us down and Snake doesn't. But hey, whatever. You're good in your own little world.

On topic, I almost always full jab, not just against Snake, but most of the cast. Here's why:

• I don't feel like memorizing what combo works against who. It's SMASH BROTHERS. Go play a grown up fighting game if you're into that.
• Comboing into dSmash is situationally killer, but generally speaking, I'd rather do a little less damage and keep them up close and personal, especially since our main problem with half the cast is getting close in the first place.
• They have less time to react to your next move
• Getting your opponent used to triple jab makes the jab cancel that much more of a surprise when you want to do it
• Safer if you mess up
• I like to chase and follow up with MORE jabs (though it requires a mindgame). The idea is to just do a huge refresh. Let's me use powerful options like uSmash more often without having to worry about it going stale. Also greatly improves chances of scoring a KO with Mario's aerials.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I was never saying that Snake shuts us down. I was saying he wasn't one of our best top tier matchups.

Marth doesn't shut us down either, but that is a different topic.

 

[Orion*]

/cool story

Please get the scrub stuff out of here.

Like I could legit copy paste the whatever type of crap that was (I wouldn't even respect it by calling it an argument or response). Then just add random numbers and shuffle it around and paste it right back to you, and it would be of equal (or greater quality considering I'm pretty sure I have met and played better people than you).

I don't generally care That much, and either A. wouldn't bother responding probably if you just posted what you thought like that, or B. given you some reasons as to why I think what I think. but if you're going to be that condescending PLEASE put 6 seconds of effort into it.

thanks

/theguywhodoesn'tmainmario
/yesIwascondescendingbackgetoverit LOL

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Okay? The matchups you were talking about are commonly considered by both sides (with the exception of ICs) to be 0 or -1 for Mario. Calling them -2 with absolutely no explanation behind the fact just led me to believe you were attempting to troll, so I didn't really feel like explaining why I said the numbers were as such. Sorry if I offended you or anything, but it's common knowledge by now that Mario does well against those top tiers (not so commonly known about ICs though, I guess).

 

[vato_break]

ALL THE TOP TIERS **** MARIO, ALL THE TOP TIERS **** MARIO, ALL THE TOP TIERS **** MARIO. Snake ***** mario, Metaknight ***** mario, Falco ***** mario, Marth ***** mario, Olimar ***** mario, Diddy kong beats mario. Now i don't want to say something like, well you've never played a top player of that character but, i'm saying i have and i am by no means sucky with mario and these matchups are so frustrating and hard.

Snake doesn't have to even work hard vs mario, mario has 0 approaches vs snake(not kidding). Metaknight shuts down mario on the ground completely and if he choose to can timeout mario VERY easily. Falcos jabs, grabs, back air, lazer camping, and reflector **** mario, larry is such a beast! Marths zoning ***** mario very well too, i feel helpless everytime i play mikeHAZE. Olimar keeps mario out almost too well and makes it almost impossible to get in, richbrown ****s me up!

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

You're doing most of it wrong Vato. Although I'll take your Marth experience over mine. Olimar certainly doesn't **** Mario, and Diddy's advantage is minuscule. Otherwise I'll agree with the other half of the top tiers you said.

 

[vato_break]

Diddys major advantage has to do with diddy timing mario out/running away once he takes out marios stock, though thats IF he takes marios stock first. So that advantage only comes in if he takes mario stock first, If you play a diddy that runs away and baits mario to wiff things it is VERY hard, in comparision to a diddy who plays the basic diddy banana game. Also for olimar, you may know the matchup better than i but, i've always felt it was difficult since every olimar seems to be good...ive never played a olimar that was really bad. stupid character imo

 

[Coolwhip]

Vato forgot to add kirby & D3. They also **** mario. (but they aren't top-tiers)

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Nobody ***** Mario except MK, and to a lesser extent Falco and apparently Marth. DDD isn't a terrible matchup because we have tools to avoid his grabs, and tools to handle everything else. It's still his advantage because we get punished extremely hard for doing something stupid.

And Kirby is like -1 at the worst, he doesn't **** us either wtf.

 

[ThatGuy]

God, who cares, man up and get better *****es.

 

[Sleek Media]

ALL THE TOP TIERS **** MARIO, ALL THE TOP TIERS **** MARIO, ALL THE TOP TIERS **** MARIO. Snake ***** mario, Metaknight ***** mario, Falco ***** mario, Marth ***** mario, Olimar ***** mario, Diddy kong beats mario. Now i don't want to say something like, well you've never played a top player of that character but, i'm saying i have and i am by no means sucky with mario and these matchups are so frustrating and hard.

Snake doesn't have to even work hard vs mario, mario has 0 approaches vs snake(not kidding). Metaknight shuts down mario on the ground completely and if he choose to can timeout mario VERY easily. Falcos jabs, grabs, back air, lazer camping, and reflector **** mario, larry is such a beast! Marths zoning ***** mario very well too, i feel helpless everytime i play mikeHAZE. Olimar keeps mario out almost too well and makes it almost impossible to get in, richbrown ****s me up!

Haha. Well at least someone here is on the right track. I don't know much about Oli...he's the only high tier guy I haven't had much experience with, but for the most part, you're right. Although I wouldn't really call MK vs Mario "****". It's more of a "make every cell of your being explode at once in a way that is impossibly painful".

I've told y'all again and again. The key to dealing with Snake is keep his shield low. If you run in there when he has a full shield, you're done. You might as well put down the controller until he finishes with you. You HAVE to camp him with fireballs. Fireballs outcamp grenades because of Mario's agility. Once his shield is low, open him up with dAir, then follow up with whatever you like. His approach on us isn't great, if he goes aggro, punish. His uTilt is unbelievably predictable, and while he WILL get you eventually, you should at least be able to do a little bonus damage on your way out. Never ever EVER let him start hitting you with tiltA. If you take that away, he loses his #1 way of dealing damage to us. That's all. TRY IT and if you still have problems, let me know.

MK, Falco, Marth, 3D, and Kirby are all unwinnable for us, and you can probably add ICs to that list. I'm not arguing about that again, it's my opinion after playing some of the best people for those characters, that's all.

I've made the point many times that if you are seriously trying to win tournaments with Mario, you really don't understand this game as well as you think you do. You have no chance. You are the guy at the bottom of the pool playing as Gannondorf. You might be exceptionally good as Gannondorf, and you might be able to win some matches against players who are not particularly skillful, but you're going to hit a brick wall HARD the second you go up against a top tier player with a top tier character. You will never win. Ever. If you just like the challenge of an uphill battle, and want to see how far you can go, then that's fine. That's all I do. But if you seriously think you have any shadow of a chance against most of the top tiers, you are fooling yourselves. Get over it, and just enjoy playing as Mario because Mario rules.

 

[Omari]

Please stop, we're accomplishing nothing by traveling this route.

1. Post if you believe, know & prove you can contribute.
2. Don't post if you're going to act out to receive attention or don't have anything nice to say.

Edit: Thanks Vato Break 4 Snake info & Cool Whip 4 assistance.

 

[Coolwhip]

God, who cares, man up and get better *****es.

Agree, like 10x more.

Lets stay on topic of this thread.

 

[vato_break]

You do realize that fireballs don't have enough stun to really approach snake right? so its either he powersheilds your fireball then uptilts your approach OR you hit him with a fireball you jump at him, you STILL get uptilted sure you can bait him...but, he can actually punish you on reaction lol. You said snakes sheild has to be low, well snake doesn't have to keep a low sheild, he can just keep power sheilding, jabing, ducking, and jumping away from fireballs to do that. All the while still throwing nades at you. Snake can also presure mario by laying explosive where your trying to camp him, simi forcing you to camp else where. On top of that snake is actually pretty good at gimping mario, just most snakes don't go for it. If you recover low, which is the safe way to return to the stage since maro can't land on stage safely, he can gimp you by grabing the ledge and bairing(similar to how snake can gimp marth) either before you upB or when you try stalling with cape or he can just grab the ledge when you upB, making you miss the ledge and going over him and then punish you with a bair from the ledge . Also Dthrow ***** mario pretty hard, marios roll and get up attack are pretty bad, so if you get read 1/5 of your stock is gone. Mario has to work HARD to get the kill and honestly i only see snake losing if you get a gimp or if you get a gimmicky kill

 

[A2ZOMG]

Against snake do the full jab. Also snake ***** mario hard, all the top tiers do.

I didn't do terribly against you or JonT, and I know I could have done better. Snake isn't that terrible of a matchup. You only need to have good footsies and learn to stay away from his U-tilt instead of running into it. Yes you have a fair point that Snake can edgeguard Mario better than most Snake players do currently, but it honestly isn't a big deal since you can edgeguard him hard for a lot of damage and actually have the tools to follow his landing for kills, which is something he can't really do back to you most of the time.

Also, Fireballs ARE good enough to get in consistently. If you're getting punished by Snake (or anyone for that matter) powershielding them, you're doing it wrong.

 

[vato_break]

i guess them having good reaction is me doing it wrong. Gotcha, maybe i should stop playing havok and hall and play snakes with worse reaction time? You telling me i'm doing it wrong, doesn't help. How do i do it right then? I jump and press B but, perhaps there is a secret way of pressing b the right way..idk! Being gimped IS a big deal because it means that you can not only die early from his kill moves, you can die early from gimps too.

and i don't even really use snake A2Z and me still being able to win should show that snake is a really hard matchup.

 

[A2ZOMG]

i guess them having good reaction is me doing it wrong. Gotcha, maybe i should stop playing havok and hall and play snakes with worse reaction time? You telling me i'm doing it wrong, doesn't help. How do i do it right then? I jump and press B but, perhaps there is a secret way of pressing b the right way..idk! Being gimped IS a big deal because it means that you can not only die early from his kill moves, you can die early from gimps too.

and i don't even really use snake A2Z and me still being able to win should show that snake is a really hard matchup.

And to be fair, I don't know SoCal nearly as well as you do. I don't really play this game and I'm able to win some tournament sets, but definitely still have room for improvement when my G&W for instance loses to your Snake on a stage where I could have platform camped to victory.

And honestly getting gimped is really rare in general, even good Olimar and Link players don't actually get gimped very often, even though their recoveries are bad. Most edgeguards are good for damage and initiating an offstage KO, not for gimps. Even if Snake does edgeguard Mario better than most people think he does, in reality it shouldn't actually cause you to get gimped that often.

 

[vato_break]

You don't really need to play much to do good, i just came back from a 2 month break and got 5th place yesterday lol. Also Gimps are rare because people allow them to be rare, olimar is understandable because his recovery is underrated but, someone like link? link's recovery is pretty bad, if he made it back, its because you failed at edgegaurding. Snake CAN gimp mario often if his recovery is read,and its likely to be read since the way mario recovers is very predictable

 

[SKidd]

'i'd be warping through her pipes' is still the funniest post ever.

 

[Sleek Media]

You do realize that fireballs don't have enough stun to really approach snake right? so its either he powersheilds your fireball then uptilts your approach OR you hit him with a fireball you jump at him, you STILL get uptilted sure you can bait him...but, he can actually punish you on reaction lol. You said snakes sheild has to be low, well snake doesn't have to keep a low sheild, he can just keep power sheilding, jabing, ducking, and jumping away from fireballs to do that. All the while still throwing nades at you. Snake can also presure mario by laying explosive where your trying to camp him, simi forcing you to camp else where. On top of that snake is actually pretty good at gimping mario, just most snakes don't go for it. If you recover low, which is the safe way to return to the stage since maro can't land on stage safely, he can gimp you by grabing the ledge and bairing(similar to how snake can gimp marth) either before you upB or when you try stalling with cape or he can just grab the ledge when you upB, making you miss the ledge and going over him and then punish you with a bair from the ledge . Also Dthrow ***** mario pretty hard, marios roll and get up attack are pretty bad, so if you get read 1/5 of your stock is gone. Mario has to work HARD to get the kill and honestly i only see snake losing if you get a gimp or if you get a gimmicky kill

I have a crazy idea. How about you actually try my suggestion, and THEN tell me why it doesn't work? Just throwin' it out there, mate.

 

[vato_break]

I have a crazy idea. How about you actually try my suggestion, and THEN tell me why it doesn't work? Just throwin' it out there, mate.

LOL don't assume i haven't tried it, it's not an effective strategy and here's why:

1) Snakes can and should Powersheild, Jab, avoid, duck and jump away from fireballs. Fireballs are low prioritied and SLOW, this is why Camping DOES NOT WORK. You can use fireballs to bait reactions but, you can't necessarily sit back and camp snake well. Tell me if you can't get snakes shield low what are you suppose to do? Approach? You've already dropped your original strategy that metioned that is suppose to "beat snake"
2) Snake out camps mario and the trade % ratio is 1:2, honestly not worth it as you die 50-60% earlier than snake does.

 

[Omari]

@SM: I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that Mario out-camps Snake (this MU has been discussed before). In terms of frames, trades, speed, damages, limit, etc Snake win most of those hands down. Talking about how you think we don't win isn't going to help anyone, win. It's actually not going to do anything but install fear. Instead of talking about how one can't do, talk about how one can.

I however do agree with shield pressuring but that generally how Mario's air game shines. Besides, you don't necessarily want to be airborne for long periods (you especially don't want to use your double jump until needed severely) of time.

@Alls: Let's move on to guaranteed combos, how to perform them @ high level & why these should be done @ w/e scenarios.

 

[SKidd]

back air/up air landed on the ground -> jab is a combo at low percents.

 

[Omari]

Mario's ground game is difficult to master due to most (if not all) of his grounded approaches being unsafe. The safest (remotely safe) approaches he has is to grab limbs (pivot grab), u-tilt @ a distance, tip jabs or f-tilt. What I'm looking for is how to land these without fear. Recently working on my aggressiveness (confirming what works) since I'm usually a patient/technical/attentive gamer.
[COLLAPSE="String v Combo:"]String=Series of attacks (throws) that don't actually link
Combo=Series of consecutive linked (or chained) attacks[/COLLAPSE]What I'm looking for is anything @ the highest reward whether it'd be on shield (block), hit, throw etc.

1st Example: Safe shield string while on edge of platform while opponent's shielding nearby=d-smash>u-air (tilt toward enemy while d-smashing)
[COLLAPSE="Questions:"]When to use? When enemy @ low/mid %.
What am I looking in my opponent (action(s))? You're looking for shield start-up.
Why? Mario 1st able to combo u-airs.[/COLLAPSE]2nd Example: Falling b-air (free or fast as close to ground as possible)>pivot (release control stick-IMO the simplest way to perform)>d-smash.
[COLLAPSE="Questions:"]When to use? After enemy surpasses 3% (can link) so it'll combo.
What am I looking for in my opponent (action(s))? Whiffed attack.
Why? Gimp setup.[/COLLAPSE]*There's no specific format but questions similar to these I'd appreciate if answered because it'll help us think "outside the box" (strengthen our way of thinking/tacking future task(s)).

 

[clowsui]

xeroxen i swear i played like 20 friendlies with you in a row falco vs mario at siis4 and i bodied you in each and every one. you might be rusty ***** but you're not THAT rusty, you have better wins than me in my tournament history anyways so you're more skilled?

i mean i took breaks from playing falco by using marth on you in those friendlies and i STILL didn't drop a single one. i took lengths to play the matchup textbook in both cases to show you why marth and falco make mario piss his pants (-2 maybe -3)

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Falco and Marth are definitely -2, I'm not arguing that. But they aren't as bad as MK.

 

[Sleek Media]

LOL don't assume i haven't tried it, it's not an effective strategy and here's why:

1) Snakes can and should Powersheild, Jab, avoid, duck and jump away from fireballs. Fireballs are low prioritied and SLOW, this is why Camping DOES NOT WORK. You can use fireballs to bait reactions but, you can't necessarily sit back and camp snake well. Tell me if you can't get snakes shield low what are you suppose to do? Approach? You've already dropped your original strategy that metioned that is suppose to "beat snake"
2) Snake out camps mario and the trade % ratio is 1:2, honestly not worth it as you die 50-60% earlier than snake does.

I have a crazy idea. How about you actually try my suggestion. If SNAKE is DUCKING your fireballs, you...really need to work on throwing fireballs. I'm trying to be nice here.

HINT: you don't have to stand still while you throw fireballs. Fireballs do not have to be thrown at a steady pace.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Stop assuming people who have played this game for years don't know how to ****ing use fireballs.

We know how to play this character, we know it doesn't work. If it works for you then by all means go for it. But it doesn't work for us, so we won't be doing it.

 

[vato_break]

I have a crazy idea. How about you actually try my suggestion. If SNAKE is DUCKING your fireballs, you...really need to work on throwing fireballs. I'm trying to be nice here.

HINT: you don't have to stand still while you throw fireballs. Fireballs do not have to be thrown at a steady pace.

upload a match of your mario please, you talk as if your a lot better than me which at this matchup which i HIGHLY doubt. i know what im talking about, what snake expierence do you have? i have Havok, Hall, and DSF. what about you? You seem to be the only one disagreeing with me LOL. fireballs are not hard to avoid, they are not falcos lazers or sheiks needles, they are slow and blockable on reaction lmao. BTW Snake can duck FH or DJ'd fireballs if you shoot them from a distance(sheild dash+crawl)

 

[Coolwhip]

I'm with vato. Upload a singles match of your mario, sleek. (No disrespect here)

Also....vato, omari & zeta. Fire is waiting for your DTM4 clips.

 

[Sleek Media]

I have no problem uploading a match, but you're gonna have to wait a couple weeks. All the folks I know who are any good are back home in Pittsburgh, and I can't go back this weekend. Until then, we'll just have to agree to disagree. So what's next?

 

[SKidd]

Reducas comes in and ***** everyone.

 

[Omari]

Post #151

Execution time, let's go! =D