Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Technically Toon Link isn't one yet if he hasn't done the Triforce gathering, if I remember right.

Maybe, but he clearly did if his Final Smash is anything to go by

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Maybe, but he clearly did if his Final Smash is anything to go by

Fair enough, I genuinely forgot that Toon Link had Triforce Slash because I don't think I've fought a Toon Link casually or otherwise in Ultimate in like 3 years lol

 

[Guynamednelson]

Fair enough, I genuinely forgot that Toon Link had Triforce Slash because I don't think I've fought a Toon Link casually or otherwise in Ultimate in like 3 years lol

He's a Link. It should've been obvious

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

He's a Link. It should've been obvious

But normal Link has the Ancient Arrow and not Triforce Slash

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

I think it's also important to remember that, aside from in terms of fighters, Zelda is genuinely pretty decently represented elsewhere. It's one of the few franchises to have a boss, has stages from throughout the series (while pre-OOT stuff is rare, Temple is a callback to Zelda 2), has a dedicated area in World of Light, numerous items again from across the series, four Assist Trophies (with a minimum of two being fan-favourite side characters), five full Mii Costumes with several pieces of headgear, and plenty of music and Spirits from throughout the series.

It's by no means "underrepresented as a franchise", just that its fighter selection hasn't really been explored as much as it could be. Do I think new Zelda fighters would be cool? Hell yeah! But I think it's also important to note that fighters aren't the be-all and end-all of Smash content.

 

[Guynamednelson]

But normal Link has the Ancient Arrow and not Triforce Slash

damn I geniunely forgot they changed his FS

curse you not playing with items!

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Technically, Link doesn't have the Triforce in BotW/TotK

Now that I did my joke...

Technically Toon Link isn't one yet if he hasn't done the Triforce gathering, if I remember right.

Both of these are accurate technicalities lmao.

......every Zelda character is a variant of the same three characters. We never got anything else.

What did Brawl get that wasn't a Triforce wielder?

Okay, I worded that badly. I probably should've wrote it as "Zelda hasn't gotten a newcomer since Brawl, and none that weren't Triforce wielders or another version of them".

I'm still hopeful but also kind of on the fence that Zelda will get a newcomer at all since it's been two games without them getting any newcomers, though.

 

[TheQuester]

You don't say! The guy that does nothing except hold up a glowing hand doesn't seem like a good Smash character?

After Piranha Plant....i think if Sakura wants a character in he'll make it work somehow, unless it's truly impossible or theyre too boring.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

OK so imagine this: Whoever's promoting Super Smash Bros. post an image of a black circle with the caption "Who's that Fighter?". Everyone's confused because and starts making Kirby/Jigglypuff seen from above jokes as they try to find a spherical character. The next day a video is posted:

"It's actually Igglybuff as seen from below!"

There's a stunned silence as they go to show the new Echo Fighter, who's Jigglypuff, but smaller and lighter, with a terrible jump height and aerial drift, but a stupid fast air speed. The scene then explodes as nobody knows what to make of Smash's second ever joke character.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I think Zelda is represented fine in terms of the whole package (stages, Assist Trophies, music, etc), but I do think it's a bit strange that we've basically had the same setup character-wise since Melee.

Like 64 only had Link, and then Melee added all of Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, and Young Link, then they just decided that was enough forever and the only change beyond that was swapping out which small Link they were using at the end of the list lol

 

[KingofPhantoms]

After Piranha Plant....i think if Sakura wants a character in he'll make it work somehow, unless it's truly impossible or theyre too boring.

Sakurai could probably make a moveset out of a Goomba or even a freaking Chuchu if he wanted to.

As long as it has a variety of enemy types with different abilities or weapons to pull from, even common enemies aren't necessarily off the table anymore (though I doubt we'd get much more than one or two more characters of that sort for the foreseeable future).

 

[HyperSomari64]

Nintendo’s biggest franchises: Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda.

Mario gets 8 characters. Pokemon gets 8 characters. Zelda has 6.

We gotta pump those numbers up. Two more characters next game.

King Harkinian and Morshu

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Sakurai could probably make a moveset out of a Goomba or even a freaking Chuchu if he wanted to.

As long as it has a variety of enemy types with different abilities or weapons to pull from, even common enemies aren't necessarily off the table anymore (though I doubt we'd get much more than one or two more characters of that sort for the foreseeable future).

insert long-shot copium Shy Guy pick to give Yoshi a second character here

(Also this isn't shade towards people who legit want Shy Guy, I'm one of you lol)

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

King Harkinian and Morshu

Getting your foe off the stage is what all true warriors strive for. Also dinner.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

King Harkinian and Morshu

Alternatively, Arzette as a third-party Indie rep and spiritual Zelda newcomer.

 

[ScrubReborn]

OK so imagine this: Whoever's promoting Super Smash Bros. post an image of a black circle with the caption "Who's that Fighter?". Everyone's confused because and starts making Kirby/Jigglypuff seen from above jokes as they try to find a spherical character. The next day a video is posted:

"It's actually Igglybuff as seen from below!"

There's a stunned silence as they go to show the new Echo Fighter, who's Jigglypuff, but smaller and lighter, with a terrible jump height and aerial drift, but a stupid fast air speed. The scene then explodes as nobody knows what to make of Smash's second ever joke character.

Me as Igglybuff Rests my Scream Tail echo dreams in 4K HD



"But... Caveman Jigglypuff... I needed it..."

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

OK so imagine this: Whoever's promoting Super Smash Bros. post an image of a black circle with the caption "Who's that Fighter?". Everyone's confused because and starts making Kirby/Jigglypuff seen from above jokes as they try to find a spherical character. The next day a video is posted:

"It's actually Igglybuff as seen from below!"

There's a stunned silence as they go to show the new Echo Fighter, who's Jigglypuff, but smaller and lighter, with a terrible jump height and aerial drift, but a stupid fast air speed. The scene then explodes as nobody knows what to make of Smash's second ever joke character.

There's only one character to add if you're considering another jigglypilled puffmaxxer.

 

[fogbadge]

Zelda hasn't gotten a newcomer that wasn't a Triforce wielder or another version of them since Brawl.

it never has

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Me as Igglybuff Rests my Scream Tail echo dreams in 4K HD: But... Caveman Jigglypuff... I needed it...

View attachment 389467

I don't think about it much, but I would genuinely love if Scream Tail was at least like a costume/alt for Jigglypuff. I know it wouldn't be quite the same since Jigglypuff is so much smaller than Scream Tail, but it'd be really nice imo

 

[Louie G.]

I think it's also important to remember that, aside from in terms of fighters, Zelda is genuinely pretty decently represented elsewhere.

I totally agree with the sentiment, Zelda is one of the most fruitfully represented series in literally every other area. Although I also sympathize with those who want new Zelda characters after so long, with the only trickle of a new character being a replacement for Young Link in Brawl. Who is also a clone and barely made the cut.

I think all the stages, music, ATs, items are fantastic, but Zelda is one of Nintendo's pillar franchises and it does stand out that it's been neglected on that front. It's not as if they're at any loss for memorable and interesting characters, even the most minor Zelda characters have pretty captivating potential if they wanted to explore it. I wager what's been taking them so long is that Link / Zelda / Ganondorf continue to be updated with each game in some fashion, so... let's say in Smash Ultimate, the reworking / redesigning of all these characters and the re-addition of Young Link probably meant a new character was lower priority.

But yeah, if we're hitting on four games now with no completely original new characters for one of Nintendo's biggest series with a fantastic showing on Switch to boot... I think people have a reason to start being a little jaded about it. Fighters aren't the be all end all, but something has to give eventually. I think every game has had a good excuse not to add a new Zelda character up to this point, but when the series makes up several popular requests and is more successful and relevant than its just about ever been... It feels like now's the time, so it'd be pretty striking if we had a repeat of the last few times instead. And I'm not saying that as a Zelda fan, I don't have much attachment to the series, just as a Smash fan.

 

[Sucumbio]

Me when not my Gardevoir is out and I have a Banana Gun.

Gardevoir would slap lfg!!!

 

[KingofPhantoms]

it never has

Already realized I worded that badly.

Edited my post to correct that as of now!

 

[DarthEnderX]

This is the video game equivalent of "Android 21 Situation".

It's not, because Android 21 is 4th Party. Hyrule Warriors is not.

You could also add the CDi characters from Zelda, due to their ownership with Phillips.

You know, just because a company works on a game, doesn't mean they own their work on that game. It depends what the contracts say. Ask anyone that writes for Marvel or DC comics. They have no say in how their own creations get used by Marvel/DC, because Marvel/DC own the rights to everything that gets made for their comics.

Nintendo is powerful enough to dictate that if a 3P company wants to work on one of their franchises, Nintendo retains the rights to anything created for it. This may not have been the case back when Super Mario RPG or the CD-i Zeldas were created. But it's certainly the case during the Hyrule Warriors era.

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

Nintendo is powerful enough to dictate that if a 3P company wants to work on one of their franchises, Nintendo retains the rights to anything created for it. This may not have been the case back when Super Mario RPG or the CD-i Zeldas were created. But it's certainly the case during the Hyrule Warriors era.

I'm pretty sure evidence suggests that isn't true for everything Warriors related. Every single time a Warriors game or content from it is referenced by Nintendo, Koei Tecmo is listed under the copyright, including in Smash itself with the AOC spirits. When the Fire Emblem Chrom and Tiki amiibo came out, which are specifically Warriors-related, only functioned with Warriors on release, and were meant to tie in to that game coming out, they specifically did not use the Warriors key-art or logo on the box.

 

[Garteam]

Which is where Impa comes in. The main conflict from Zelda fans seems to be deciding between finding the next most significant supporting character or opting for a memorable major character from only a single game. Some people seem to be convinced "one-shot characters" don't have much of a place in Smash without cyclical protagonists, so Impa became somewhat of a fall back during Smash 4. This isn't to say that's the ONLY reason Impa became popular, because as Gengar pointed out her presence in Hyrule Warriors really gained her some new cred, but I feel as if this hasn't manifested into a major fan movement as much as it has a "safer" and more sensible roster prediction given Smash's prior history neglecting the Zelda character of the month.

So I guess my point is that I'm progressively convinced the idea we have to choose one character is kind of silly. It kind of operates on the assumption that this support is cannibalizing itself, or that Sakurai would just freeze up if he was confronted with two or three individually popular characters, and I don't think either of those sentiments are true. And this splinter in whether or not one-shot characters belong in Smash is not unlike the disagreements around Ridley's practicality, K. Rool's relevance, and nowadays Waluigi or Geno's general importance. Historically, the sect of the community who distinctly has a problem with this is not actually big enough to make a difference. So I don't think it's doing that much of a number here, unless Sakurai independently agrees with them.

There are plenty of reasons Zelda may not have gotten a new character, but I wouldn't continue to blame the community for it. Skull Kid arguably has some of the most notable presence in Ultimate out of any character who isn't playable or a boss (comparable to Isaac and Ashley - and factoring in the Moon AT), so I'd say he may have had a decent showing on the ballot. With how limited space was for newcomers to begin with, perhaps someone like him or Isaac may have been more fortunate under normal conditions.

That aside, I do think Rauru probably gets passed over or gets the AT treatment. Unless Sakurai is totally compelled to represent Link's TOTK abilities through someone other than Link, which I think would be wise as not to clutter his general gameplay with crazy arm stuff. But I'm talking more on the front of the popular choices now, rather than the most contemporary pick... who could simply get in separate from any of this if they wanted.

It seems like this post is saying two contradictory things. In the first paragraph, you establish that Zelda fans are divided between Impa, who some view as too boring to be worth supporting, and the more popular one-offs, who some view as too unlikely to be supporting. The next paragraph, you claim viewing speculation as a zero-sum game is a bad idea because people can support multiple characters from the same franchise. That's true in the abstract, but your perspective on the state of Zelda in Smash speculation (which I think is bang on) is premised on the idea that people are putting their eggs in one basket based on the assumption we're getting a single Zelda character.

If people don't see the Zelda cast as being in direct competition, why are Impa fans reluctant to support one-offs for spoiling their vote? Why are one-off fans concerned that a "boring pick" will supersede their preferred option? Why aren't we seeing the reciprocity between supporters of Zelda characters and instead seeing characters framed as being in direct competition?

I'm not trying to name and shame Zelda fans here, nor is the absence of a Zelda newcomer their fault. Smash speculation is for fun and is about passion for gaming, it's not about pulling off long-term social engineering schemes to get characters that you want in. It's also undeniable that they've had it pretty rough for the past two decades. However, the way Ultimate selected its newcomers isn't that conductive to the way that Zelda handles its characters. Ultimate's non-echo, first-party newcomers all fell into one of five categories:

1. New series -
2. Highly requested fan favourites -
3. New entries from revolving door franchises -
4. Rising star in an established series -
5. Haha, funny plant -

Zelda's only way of fitting into this paradigm is through a highly requested fan favourite or a weird curveball like PP, the latter of which isn't what most people want when they talk about a Zelda newcomer. The series is in a rough spot where its core cast is too established to get regular newcomers to represent its new blood like Pokemon and Fire Emblem regularly get, but there's no equivalent to Isabelle in the series, either. Impa is the closest thing to that, but she's been pretty static in her game-to-game importance beyond Hyrule Warriors, which is almost unrepresented in Smash. There's a big reason why Zelda gets a lot of supporting content in Smash, but can't seem to break past the triforce users as fair as representation goes. It's not that Sakurai doesn't like the franchise or anything like that, but he seems to view everyone that isn't a variation on Link, Zelda, or Ganon as being too minor to become playable on their own.

Skull Kid is rising in popularity (and he's my preferred choice), but he's still got a way to go before he reaches the tier Ridley and K. Rool were at when they were added. People aren't making memes about how Smash fans won't shut up about Skull Kid. Skull Kid doesn't top popularity polls. Skull Kid isn't omnipresent in every conversation. He's pretty overshadowed by Waluigi, Bandana Waddle Dee, and Issac regarding first parties.

However, I think there's enough demand for a Zelda character generally that, if put behind Skull Kid as a singular candidate, could propel him into being a popular request among the fanbase to be a serious contender for a fan favourite inclusion. It isn't necessarily doom or gloom if that doesn't happen. Castlevania got in due to general requests for a character on the ballot rather than one specific character. But that's still one example to the dozens of characters that have gotten in due to fan demand.

I dunno, maybe I'm wrong. However, I think a change in how Zelda has been discussed in Smash for the past 10 years would be advantageous to its prospects of actually getting a character in, even if its not determinative in and of itself.

 

[fogbadge]

There’s a thought, why couldn’t the next surprise character be a Zelda character?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

There’s a thought, could the next surprise character be a Zelda character?

Oracle Link would pop off once Sakurai reveals Octorok.

 

[NintenRob]

Hello, I'm important now.


If we got a Zelda mook as an enemy, Right now I'm gravitating towards Redead. Imagine that iconic screech. Also a playable Zombi.... I just remembered we already have a playable Zombie, don't mind me.

 

[Kirbeh]

Hello, I'm important now.


If we got a Zelda mook as an enemy, Right now I'm gravitating towards Redead. Imagine that iconic screech. Also a playable Zombi.... I just remembered we already have a playable Zombie, don't mind me.

A playable Redead would actually be really cool imo, I just wonder how they'd handle movement for it.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Hello, I'm important now.


If we got a Zelda mook as an enemy, Right now I'm gravitating towards Redead. Imagine that iconic screech. Also a playable Zombi.... I just remembered we already have a playable Zombie, don't mind me.

Yeah but a playable ReDead would give us a zombie that fights like one

 

[Louie G.]

It seems like this post is saying two contradictory things. In the first paragraph, you establish that Zelda fans are divided between Impa, who some view as too boring to be worth supporting, and the more popular one-offs, who some view as too unlikely to be supporting. The next paragraph, you claim viewing speculation as a zero-sum game is a bad idea because people can support multiple characters from the same franchise. That's true in the abstract, but your perspective on the state of Zelda in Smash speculation (which I think is bang on) is premised on the idea that people are putting their eggs in one basket based on the assumption we're getting a single Zelda character.

Fair enough, I think you got the jist of what I was trying to say but I may have lost the plot somewhere along the way. Sorry about that. My perspective was more that the side of the community who distinctly has an issue with one-shot characters is probably a vocal minority. Outside of some dedicated fringe Impa supporters, a lot of it seems to rest on plausibility. The splintering of the community seems to rest more in what they think is practical, rather than necessarily what they like better. I think most people do just want a "Zelda character" and would be content to pull from the well of a couple dozen solid candidates.

With that in mind, yeah... maybe the reason someone like Skull Kid hasn't reached Waluigi / Geno levels of inescapable is simply because many view him as a lost cause. I was coming at this more of the mind that this was solely about popularity, but I think the main disparity here is in expectation. It makes me wonder what Ridley or K. Rool support would look like right now if Ultimate burned us one more time. I've already slowed my roll pretty hard on Rhythm Heaven after getting my hopes too high twice in a row. I was just about ready to give up on Ridley before E3.

To be honest, I think there's a prospect here we haven't touched on that may be the biggest obstacle. I mentioned earlier in the topic how the lack of new Zelda characters may stem in part from the cast's penchant for changing designs from game to game. Link, Zelda and Ganondorf have seen some of the more significant changes out of the Smash cast over the years. Of course, the one thing Smash and Zelda fans want more than anything is a new Ganondorf moveset. And I wonder if maybe that voice will be heard above all of them, in tandem with TOTK's fresh new take on the character, and perhaps a full on Ganondorf rework would be prioritized over a single new Zelda character.

Which would be... controversial, I think. A lot of fans likely see that as something we're owed, rather than a replacement for a new character outright. As we've addressed a couple times, it doesn't really need to come down to one single character and Zelda could probably warrant two if they wanted. So we could get a reworked Ganon and Skull Kid / Impa / Midna / whoever. But if it came down to one or the other, I wonder if priority would favor the thing fans have been asking for upwards of 20 years now that also happens to align with the most recent entry in the series.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Forget all these characters from older games. Tulin for the next Smash.

Best Sage and Champion with the best attacks and power and the best character development.

Also, Rito are awesome.

 

[Kirbeh]

Forget all these characters from older games. Tulin for the next Smash.

Best Sage and Champion with the best attacks and power and the best character development.

Also, Rito are awesome.

The real dream is for Zelda to get the Pokémon in Brawl treatment and give us 4 characters all at once.

 

[NintenRob]

The real dream is for Zelda to get the Pokémon in Brawl treatment and give us 4 characters all at once.

But who would be the trainer?

 

[HyperSomari64]

There’s a thought, why couldn’t the next surprise character be a Zelda character?

>*Monkey's Paw finger curls*
>It's Ganon, but from the 80's cartoon.
At least is not the "Excuuuusme me, Princess" Link.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

But who would be the trainer?

[TotK spoilers] Mineru's ghost

 

[Kirbeh]

But who would be the trainer?

"Leave it to me!"

 

[NintenRob]

View attachment 389473
"Leave it to me!"

Even after all these year, this joke never fails to make me smile

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Even after all these year, this joke never fails to make me smile

Another memorable meme from the era of the Pics of the Day and the Miiverse posts.

 

[TheQuester]

I totally agree with the sentiment, Zelda is one of the most fruitfully represented series in literally every other area. Although I also sympathize with those who want new Zelda characters after so long, with the only trickle of a new character being a replacement for Young Link in Brawl. Who is also a clone and barely made the cut.

I think all the stages, music, ATs, items are fantastic, but Zelda is one of Nintendo's pillar franchises and it does stand out that it's been neglected on that front. It's not as if they're at any loss for memorable and interesting characters, even the most minor Zelda characters have pretty captivating potential if they wanted to explore it. I wager what's been taking them so long is that Link / Zelda / Ganondorf continue to be updated with each game in some fashion, so... let's say in Smash Ultimate, the reworking / redesigning of all these characters and the re-addition of Young Link probably meant a new character was lower priority.

But yeah, if we're hitting on four games now with no completely original new characters for one of Nintendo's biggest series with a fantastic showing on Switch to boot... I think people have a reason to start being a little jaded about it. Fighters aren't the be all end all, but something has to give eventually. I think every game has had a good excuse not to add a new Zelda character up to this point, but when the series makes up several popular requests and is more successful and relevant than its just about ever been... It feels like now's the time, so it'd be pretty striking if we had a repeat of the last few times instead. And I'm not saying that as a Zelda fan, I don't have much attachment to the series, just as a Smash fan.

I think Sidon has a decent chance to be playable in Smash 6.