MetalMusicMan

Looked at their character boards, the pictures, frame data and just thought about it. I'm playing against one of the only significant Yoshis (MX) this weekend, so I'll report you back about how well this stuff works. I THINK I'm a better player than him though, so I dunno how much of my skill it will be and how much it will be of the MU though I'm pretty good at separating the two.

Things of note about Yoshi:
Can be footstooled out of his heavy armor DJ.
Moves are comparable in speed to Falco's o_O in terms of frame data. In fact aerials are all very fast.
Has a "devil's spotdodge".
Egg toss on ledge can be done max 5 times if done perfectly. 4 conventional maximum since messing up 5th = death.
Has trouble dealing with shield pressure without having to roll or spam spotdodge but at the same time has a very good projectile and good enough hitboxes + mobility to punish Falco consistently.
Chaingrab on Falco possible, just has to be frame perfect and leads to upsmash at best. Buffer spotdodges imo every time he throws out a grab for the CG.

Way to play the matchup is probably to get close to Yoshi in mid range and force him to react there. Lasers and side b are a good option to frustrate the Yoshi into patterns. Falco's mobility is good enough to make Yoshi cry because he will be punished. Up close combat is also very good vs. Yoshi.
Ledge trapping harder than juggle trapping Yoshi due to jump/DJ properties. Also, egg toss is annoying to deal w/ during ledge trap.
Best zone is to be below Yoshi and in front.

Hazama for the win! :3

hit me up on aim.

It just gets extremely frustrating to see so many people just slinging hate with no basis, and doing nothing but mouth off about how everything sucks, but doing nothing to contribute or change it.

Coming from a TO's perspective, it depresses me, since I began as a player, and worked to change things myself.

Now I host tournaments for one of the scant few MK-banned metagames, we use a liberal stage list with TWO stage bans, and 9 starters with PS2! My players are happy, I'm happy, and I get frustrated with those who are stuck in their ways.

/rant

Lololollol. Whattt's uupppp

We'll see how things go.

<3

I was getting worried! Glad somebody gets it XD

Well, rapist-of-underage-individuals Nicole (LOOOOL just kidding if you ever find this <3) and David want to go. There's always a great after-party and Nope's housing is totally legit provided you guys clean up your sloppy messes if you make them (which I'm sure you do, unlike M2K who leaves cans everywhere -__-) and Nope's is famous for being the most successful, long-running Ohio tournament series (SiiS series has only been running one year, Nope's has been for two), so you pretty much get the best tournament deal ever by going to Nope's. Oh, and Nope is probably the best TO in Ohio that isn't named Overswarm or Alphazealot: he finished a...40-50 man tournament by 11 PM with about 12 or 13 TVs, pools and doubles included.

LOOOOOOOL tooooo good.
you guys are planning on going to nope's monthly, right?

Ok, thanks.

Hey, when today could I come pick up Rauleens phone?

V Yay! Now both of us can study that vid :D
I watched Pictochat and YI game...lol I just cracked and got impatient, I think. You had some really great reads too! You're a formidable opponent. 'Till the next time we meet...

found that match vs u n clowsui at battlefield. Apparently a hack'ed wii can do weird things like save the replay to another folder in the SD card so i'll record that

hatin on hades and whatnot, and not understanding we we having a good time. losers

lol yoshi boards suck

Well, that issue of talking about a certain player after witnessing their ability in tournament first-hand is something that happens quite commonly with the yoshi boards; there's this theory that every region/area has a Yoshi player that people brag about. Florida really pushed it too far when they started spamming the Yoshi:MK Mu thread about how good "The Blood God", Poltergust, is.

The ironic part is that there still hasn't been a top level Yoshi player, imo. There isn't someone that does as well as Shaky, San, etc., yet they refuse to experiment and make any drastic changes that will assist them in reaching that level.

Yoshi could potentially rise to bottom of mid/top of low if people actually cared about advancing him.

Hey, I'd avoid posting on the Yoshi boards for any real reason because it's been a troll board for about a year and a half or so. Scatz and I stopped posting there because no one will get serious about advancing Yoshi's metagame anymore.

lol.

Dude, it's all good. Consider it done.

=====

Yeah, you REALLY have to be careful about that SDR abuse. It's harder to abuse in teams because you never really know who the Sonic is going to target.

Through all of the confusion, there's another person wailing on you. It's an ordeal.

I'll talk to you about it later. Class starts in 4 minutes. gtg!

'Sup, m'bro?

Yeah I just noticed lol

oops XD

WAIT WHY AREN'T YOU ON THIS LIST

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11157745&postcount=3026

Edit: nvm I'm terrible at reading

lol you're an *******

lmao i just now noticed your avatar. You're soooooo gaaaay

I was wondering if anyone saw it. Haha. I HAD TO DO IT!!!!

Wow, your VM wall is filled with cool story after cool story...
















bro.

In other words, since DK is not a popular character, similarly with Luigi, Mario, Samus, and Bowser, no one cares so the infinite would never be brought up to be banned.

BTW, before you mention that Pikachu "infinite" again. I personally was one of the original people who tried it online once I found out with one of the better Falco's on AIB.

What I am saying is this in reference to the infinite

I am talking about an infinite that is:
A. Virtually unavoidable
B. Incredibly easy to do
C. Incredibly difficult to get out of.
D. Done between the 2nd best character and the best character by far in the game to one another.

If an infinite gave MK his only bad matchup, that went from originally a probable 50-50 matchup to an 80-20 Snake or even a 90-10 matchup, Snake would dominate tournaments. The infinite would be called to ban or MK would cease to be a tournament character, both which would impact the community immensly.

In other words, I am saying that you can't personally say that if Snake had that type of infinite on the top character in brawl, similarly broken as D3 vs. DK, that it would not be payed attention to and that it would probably be banned. From the game itself, MK is by far the most popular character I have ever seen in any smash game. if there was that big of an issue, people would pay attention to it.

by the first portion, I mean: Why was the suicide clause changed, is there a point outside of making these characters weaker?

for part 2: I am saying: if Snake had an infinite, unlike Falco vs Wario, or Pikachu vs Falco, that was let's say, almost impossible to escape without frame perfect timing, was very easy to catch MK in, and was a very quick damage giver, people would personally pay attention to an infinite issue much more.

The higher a tier list character, the more people are going to respond and care in other words since it overall affects more people.

The reason why you at this point and the rest of the BBR do not care about Luigi or the other 5 characters is since none of them are tourney worthy.

then why isn't the suicide clause taken as it was?

Also, I could guarantee you that this would have been much more of a debate if it was let's say a Snake on MK infinite.

Does it personally matter to you, judging by the "It doesn't matter" portion that you personally do not care what happens to the metagame of characters? If so, I can assume:

This is why the new stage list guarantees a way above average counterpick for MK vs any character as regardless of the 2 measly stages being banned, MK has another 5 or so vs anyone?

This is why it also says in a similar context that the BBR cannot recommend to have a ledge grab rule, to somewhat promote the same character that inspired the ledge grab rules?

And, finally, is this also why it also gets rid of the suicide clause, to promote any character outside of this clause? I guess by the same ideals you took for these 3, right?

what you personally do not get is that the Luigi metagame advanced since the infinite was banned. It was stagant before the infinite was banned, unlike the other matchups listed.

if it is impossible to win a matchup unless your opponent is completely pardon my words stupid at it, then I think a 100-0 matchup such a DK vs D3 is not just a form of arbitration. The same applies with the 90-10 and 80-20's.

And how can a player deal with this issue without picking a different character.

Also, I am not trying to force every character to have a fair matchup. I am simply asking this:

What is the best way to make sure that every character develops? That is to get rid of what prevents a null and void character. There is a reason why the majority of tournaments across the united states and Europe banned the standing infinite.

There is a difference with trying to fix a matchup like Sheik vs Ganondorf or Metaknight vs Ganondorf. These rely on the normal centralized move sets of these characters. Does D3 need the infinite in order to have a basically 6 >> matchups when he could simply have a > matchup vs all of them? Does D3 actually need this in order to advance?

I am sorry for using that form of sarcasm while making these posts.

You can check the topics of all 6 characters you see. All of them list at least an 75-25 matchup with the infinite and an overall much better chance without it.

What specific sarcasm. What is your personal response/question to my question.

The issue is simple: you are making a 90-10 matchup out of nothing. my main point is this:
Compared to the Ice climbers who have to rely on chain grabs basically to kill,and who are easily avoidable due to their poor range, the D3 infinite is not avoidable by both DK and Bowser. The Samus matchup is 90-10 with the infinite and as per previous discussions the Luigi matchup is estimated by us to be close to a 60-40 matchup without the infinite and a 70-30 or possibly a 75-25 with the infinite.

Either you ban all infinites or you ban none. How "hard they are to perform" isn't part of the equation. They are either broken or they aren't.

^^^Broken or they aren't. Exactly as I am talking about.
*Bingo*. A broken infinite is one that literally cannot be avoided, as in the IC's Ganon matchup or let's say....HMMM, D3 vs DK or Bowser. and lets' not forget with the infinite vs Samus its 90-10, vs Mario its 80-20, and vs Luigi its either 75-25 or 80-20.

If you have a problem with being infinited as a certain character, you have the option to counterpick and use another character.

^^^Counterpick and use someone else. Hmm, how cute. how is this keeping a metagame to prosper? Oh yeah, I'll just learn MK just like 5000 people will out of this ruleset. That will sure help out the MK crisis that is brawl.

Finished.

King D3 vs DK went from a 70-30 without the infinite to a 100-0. Every move of DK's can be powershielded by DK and then DK can be grabbed out of it. I mean that. The matchup is literally unwinnable vs any D3 with common sense. You are literally eliminating the metagame of 6 characters by simply allowing this infinite.

Furthermore, D3's "infinite" on Luigi isn't even an infinite. It doesn't become infinite until around 120%. Before that Luigi can wiggle out. This is true for Samus and Mario as well. If you would like more information on that, feel free to ask.

^^^^^Someone wiggles out? I dash grab and regab them. Good luck escaping with our pathetic range.

Continued next post

"It was never banned to begin with. No version of the ruleset has ever had any infinite banned, ever."

^^^^There is a change in wording. It went from that it was the region's discussion to your group saying that you do not recommend the banning of any infinite

It doesn't matter if Luigi has won tournaments or not. It's not even about that. It's about not being arbitrary. There's no reason to ban DeDeDe's infinite on Luigi, or Donkey Kong's infinite on Lucas/Ness, when the Ice Climbers can infinite any character in the game.

^^^^The ice climbers infinite was already previously discussed. There is a difference between the IC's infinite and any other character. The reason why the ice climber chain grabs are allowed in melee and brawl are since it is the main portion of their metagame. They are allowed specifically since it is possible to avoid the ice climbers unlike King D3 which turns an already bad matchup into a 90-10 or worse.

Continued in next post

just to wonder, why is the D3 short step infinite not banned anymore. You are unbanning an infinite that can be used vs Luigi, a character that has won tournaments before.

Np. You were doing well but too many posters lol.

lol. dont even sweat it, i trash talk EVERYONE. dont take it too serious.