Brawl-: 1.5-1.6 thread archive. 2.0 is stickied

standardtoaster · Jun 22, 2010

Lucario's upB was changed to have IASA only on hit instead of having IASA at any time during flight because it was way too easy to stall a match. ie. grounded upB -> any aerial -> upB

iirc it took about 20 seconds or so for lucario to land. You can see an example of stalling a match with that on my YouTube account. www.YouTube.com/user/nonstandardtoaster

I would directly link to the vid, but I am on my iPod right now.

Zucco · Jun 22, 2010

standardtoaster said:
Lucario's upB was changed to have IASA only on hit instead of having IASA at any time during flight because it was way too easy to stall a match. ie. grounded upB -> any aerial -> upB

iirc it took about 20 seconds or so for lucario to land. You can see an example of stalling a match with that on my YouTube account. www.YouTube.com/user/nonstandardtoaster

I would directly link to the vid, but I am on my iPod right now.

Falcon vs Lucario vid? Thats the only one I saw with Lucario in it. I was NEVER able to go that high with Lucario's ES. Pretty sure that video is from a version before the actual release of 1.0, but I could be wrong.

[TSON] · Jun 22, 2010

For the record, the upB cancel was rid of because it didnt help with combos at all. What you have now is a ridiculously good move when it comes to comboing that's decent at recovery. I mean, we can experiment with bringing it back if it makes as big of a difference as it sounds like it does, but as a minus lucario main I actually like it better this way

En1gmaSPY · Jun 22, 2010

Bring back the old Lucario Up-B.Not for me,but for my friend who is a Lucario main that misses it.Lol he sad.For 2.0 could you change Falcons f-tilt? could you make it so that its the third hit of his AAA combo(knee) with Snake f-tilt hitbox and medium knockback? or just the same knockback as his normal third hit? i know it sounds like i just want a custom made Falcon for myself,but its not the case.I rarely use ANY of Falcon's tilts.Maybe im an idiot,maybe you shouldnt be using tilts with Falcon at all,but hey its just one move(like you did with Ganon's n-air) so why not? ONE decent tilt for Falcon wouldnt be half bad.Not that he is horrible without tilts anyway,he is still beast.But whatever,its just an idea i had.

Lucas still feels weird for me,but meh,i just cant get used to him,but that doesnt mean hes bad.Squirtle is,by all means,an incredible homosexual being that will kill you with his equally homosexual f-air.Yes i mad.I hate that turtle so much.

And if anyone is having problems with projectiles,pick any of the space animals.My friend loves to spam s*** with Samus.I picked Falco and he basically killed himself because i kept spamming reflector and his missiles ***** him back.Lol spam tard.Is it really necessary for Samus to have those missiles chase you all that time? jeebus christ.Anyway,yeah,those are my complaints lol.

Give Falcon a new tilt,Bring back old Lucario up-B(or something similar),and no matter what you do or what you say,Squirtle will always be an incredible homosexual turtle.

Ulevo · Jun 22, 2010

TheSilenceOfNoOne said:
IF YOU SEE SOMETHING IS WRONG, DON'T POP UP AFTER A RELEASE AND COMPLAIN. COMPLAIN BEFORE WE RELEASE.

How are players supposed to critique a game or it's character prior to its release, exactly?

TheSilenceOfNoOne said:
And for anyone who thinks that not being able to play Squirtle like you did last build is a bad thing, GTFO. Spamming nair with 20% super armor does not a metagame make.

I might be wrong, but I don't think anyone who's complained about Squirtle being over nerfed has argued that the Nair nerf was unwarranted. They're just upset with everything else.

My opinion on Squirtle was that he was perfect, barring the SA. If you had kept the Nair the same, and just removed the SA without touching anything else, he would have been good to go. But that's my take.

As for the Lucario complaints, I don't know where Lucario is sitting at right now. But this is how he should be going about his business:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7njb4eiBXcg

Lucario had one glitch on his Extreme Speed when used on the ground where he would always attack or grab facing left regardless of the direction traveled. Aside from fixing that, the Lucario build was fantastic.

So... If this is the current Lucario build, I suggest haters reconsider their complaints and give him another serious look. If the devs changed Lucario, then... I can see why complaints would be warranted; it's just tampering with a nice product after that point.

DevilKiller · Jun 22, 2010

The 1.0 Lucario Up-B was fun and spammy. Either you escape from the opponent, or the opponent can't escape from you.
The 1.5 Lucario was nerfed for political reasons. It is now boring and viable at the same time, in Brawl Minus standards at least.

But as standardtoaster said, it's way too easy to stall with Up-B. No one can approach you because you either hit them with the hitbox, or cancel it and practically fly away from them. It's a tough game of tag, and when you tag Lucario, you get hit.

About the lack of combo ability as noted from SilenceofNoOne, Extremespeed works more like a pursuit tool for failed comboes, so that it wasn't all in vain. It also closes the gap between players pretty fast when cancelled, so cancel it with fair and use any other, stronger move. Sometimes, jumping isn't fast enough, hence we use the move EXTREMESPEED.

bajisci · Jun 22, 2010

Not one person has said the nerf on squirtles nair was unjustified, everything else was, however. I had a match where luigi's nair beat my squirtles fsmash and i stopped playing.

Orion* · Jun 22, 2010

Ulevo said:
How are players supposed to critique a game or it's character prior to its release, exactly?

what you arent psychic? LOL obviously we are supposed to just know ****

Ulevo said:
I might be wrong, but I don't think anyone who's complained about Squirtle being over nerfed has argued that the Nair nerf was unwarranted. They're just upset with everything else.=

this x100

and note i dont even play squirtle

i swear you people dont read posts

MASTERLINKX · Jun 22, 2010

I don't know if this is old,

With Lucario, if you spam F-Special on your opponent in the air really fast, they can't escape until you land or stop.

F-Special > Opponent Grab Escapes > Lucario Re-Grab (F-special) > repeat

Depending on how high your opponent is, the damage can reach up to 70%

I did this with a CPU.

ss118 · Jun 22, 2010

TKO727 said:
sir after reading this post...im completely convinced you are just bad at this game

I wouldn't say I am. Sure I'm not used to this as, say, melee, but it doesn't mean I'm bad at it. Plus everyone is constantly changing, excuse me for not knowing how to use everyone after a few hours of playing.

TKO727 said:
anyway here is some "help"

Aren't you sweet?

TKO727 said:
1) Mario- have you thrown a fireball lately? or maybe 100 fireballs...thats obviously a helper

I said finisher. Fireballs don't finish from what I remember: I would like a video to prove me wrong as well!

TKO727 said:
all of his bmoves are good in general to up-bs allow him to kill off top

I'm still getting used to down b, but then again I've never been good with it(being the melee player I am).

TKO727 said:
2) DK- the barrel thing is meh...i mean its an ok edgeguard but the fact that its a secondary bmove and not a complete replacements makes me not give a **** about it but like if it was removed I'd be upset...also you aren't even complaining about DK- anymore...you are just complaining about the dk metagame in all versions of brawl...bair is just how DK works

I feel there should be more to a character's approach than one move but meh.

TKO727 said:
3) Yoshi- dont know much about yoshi but i do know that i do like the fact that after i get hit with just one up-air it doesnt auto mean im dead...also doesnt nair kill??? yoshi has neat add-ons but some of his add-ons still and u-air isnt even completely gone...

His u-air is a flop is unsweetspotted.Opponent's combo YOU afterwards.

TKO727 said:
4) Wario-no comment

Thanks for the "help".

TKO727 said:
5) Zelda- you complain about stupid ****...U-tilt...REALLY...zelda is legit in this game if you play keep away...you gotta play her at a distance...I mean she is alright up close but the extra hit boxes is where its at....and 2 dins fires is legit also

The only thing I say about zelda is that it is odd to sweetspot her u-tilt with the upwards sweetspot. Never said it was bad. I still miss the airdodge hitboxes, but I guess with practice I could do better....

TKO727 said:
6) Ganondorf- ask pierce...his ganon is legit

who?

TKO727 said:
7) Kirby- they made nair JC-able because it has horrible lag...and just because it doesnt hit them up doenst mean its useles...jump cancel into another move if it hit shield....nair>J cancel> dair or nair> jcancel > air hammer...and once again...you are complaining about stupid ****...people don't even use nair like that anyway when you have bair and uair and dair

Well his nair just seems.... awkward, still. I find it hard to implement into my game, if only to use as a flashy taunt.

TKO727 said:
8) DDD- I dont even know what this means

This DK's side-b on the ground.

TKO727 said:
9) Olimar- olimar is boring

elaborate

TKO727 said:
10) falco- falco did get a little nerfed that is true but he isnt unuseable...all of his aerials are still legit...nair is still legit..dair still auto combos anything if you hit someone off the ground step out side your one-tracked mind and be creative

dair is much harder to edgeguard with now but meh. Nair is OK but easy to DI out of.

TKO727 said:
11) Wolf- wolfs neutral B is a blaster? why wouldnt he continue to fall...fox and falco also still fall if they shoot from the air...and your complaint about the reflector is stupid...I'd rather wolf be able to jump out of it like melee fox/falco then have to hit the ground with it to cancel

the blaster causes you to fall when you attempt to rise with it. Really hard to space, since unless you are at the peak of your jumps you can't use it off the ground. And you haven't seen N64 fox if you think the shine-cancel thing is stupid.

TKO727 said:
12) Squirtle- do you even play squirtle? squirtle is defintely nerfed...if you played squirtle in 1.0 and then play him here...try to play him in the same style...that **** doesnt work

I never played the 1.0.

TKO727 said:
NERF LIST
Ftilt's new trajectory makes it uncomboable...it used to hit almost straight up which leads to 2 upairs and then a aerial finisher (bair or fair or nair if you wish)

Havem't used f-tilt: tbh d-tilt is overall better, since it has multiple hits and weaves in and out for you, making it hard to punish. Also easily shield pokes and even if they can grab your crouching so good luck.

TKO727 said:
Fsmash doesnt go nearly as far

A computer hit my sweetspotting mario with squirtle's f-smash: it goes far enough!

TKO727 said:
Nair water hitbox crucially scaled back

wait what? it's ridiculous! And I don't even know if the 20% SA still exists since I can't touch him.

TKO727 said:
Dair isnt even a worthy spike anymore...even link can make that **** back

I am more and more starting to thing the 1.0 squirtle is in the OP link...

TKO727 said:
fair and bair both have damage decreases (which also decreases knockback)

Still broken as **** in mine.

TKO727 said:
alot of the shell super armor seems to be gone

can't knock him anywhere

TKO727 said:
and then if you don't know anything about shellshifting your basic squirtle will get wrecked

if that is the turning animation in squirtle's dash then I need to look into that.

TKO727 said:
SO PLEASE TELL ME HOW SQUIRTLE IS NOT NERFED?

Because everything you said is mostly.... false.

TKO727 said:
13) Ike-dont know about ike...dont really care

luv u 2

TKO727 said:
14) lucas- ask zak how to play lucas

again, a lot of help

TKO727 said:
I suggest you really sit down with this game and figure it out because almost all of your complaints are trivial ****.

I'm not complaining: I'm merely asking how to play this. And you didn't help at all, unlike the nicer individual who posted above you. Thanks, btw. =)

Anyway, I'm still asking questions and putting stuff here. So let me go:

Mario- still seems odd, but I'm getting more used to his playstyle and gimping nature. It's very hard to incorporate his footstool/ down b in my game just for being a melee player. One issue I had with him is that I would be using fireballs to cover me while I recover: and when I wanted to up-b it was still firing fireballs. I'm not used to the timing most likely, but maybe make it more user-friendly so this doesn't come up as often?
Luigi- played with him, air mobility is lacking from previous versions but he's OK: it seems that the amount you can DI his up-b literally makes it impossible to kill with the unsweetspotted version until like ~120%. Not that it matters since most characters can't stop the 70% combo, but whatever.
Peach- my friend used her mostly, and he said the random items were more annoying than anything. because he doesn't look at his character when he pulls turnips to edgeguard. Maybe give her a special, more obvious noise for when she pulls out items? Also, her double jump is ****.
Bowser- only use him when I feel gay: I used him a little and I miss the dash-attack cancel thing/ dair impaling, but it was all removed for good reason i'm sure.
DK- same gripes: too predictable approach. Does he still have the extra hitboxes on his hands for titts and stuff? I didn't notice them.
Diddy- up-b isn't as gay. No gripes or problems with him, at all.
Yoshi- u-air. T-T
Wario- played him a little. Weaving game is ridiculous, but his fast falling speed is too: in fact, I find myself getting killed more than necessary.
Link- good. miss his amazing-ranged up-b, but whatever.
Zelda- I'll probably practice with her to get use to outside ranges. Also, how do you control two din fire's(saw it in some video)?
Shiek- don't know, seems good still.
Ganondorf- still meh, but combos into up-b spike are ridiculous.
Toon Link- ZOMG projectiles crazy!
Samus- read above, but potentially worse since it's homing, and power shot, and then a crazy-*** zair.
ZSS- combo-crazy, really cool character
Pit- awesome: one of my favorites.
Ice Climbers- read above.
Rob- neutral B is ridiculous, as is his general approaching game, edgeguarding game, recovering game.... just ridiculous. One of the best characters, def.
Kirby- I like sucking people up. I need to down-tilt more.
MK- ridiculous. I like how much priority his neutral b has if you attack above it.
DDD- d-throw->f-tilt->d-throw->f-tilt-> u-air-> fair. Then waddle-dee spam.
Olimar- still weird but not nearly as bad as my prvious opinion of him. still awkward, though.
Fox- <3 melee
Falco- I miss his old dair but whatever.
Wolf- No fast fall on neutral b and cancel on down b when it touches the ground.... please?
Falcon- too good: needs more amazingness.
Pikachu- no comment.
PT- broken as ****. All characters are s-tier.
Lucario- why is everyone complaining? Cause of his up-b? Still seems awesome to me

Jigglypuff- wtf lol. Ridiculous as well.
Marth- awkward: just put in the melee one lol. I like him a lot though.
Ike- meh. more powah
Ness- is great: what can I say?
Lucas- still ****ty. Has no way around SR at all. And gets infinited by charizard
G+W- awesome
Snake- awesome
Sonic- awesome, needs to attack sooner out of up-b.

BSL · Jun 22, 2010

Ulevo said:
How are players supposed to critique a game or it's character prior to its release, exactly?

if you read what he quoted, te person said they weren't going to play 1.5, and just wait for 2.0 hoping it wouldn't suck. Tson says play each release and tell us what to fix, instead of hoping what we do might be the right thing.

[TSON] · Jun 23, 2010

Ulevo said:
I might be wrong, but I don't think anyone who's complained about Squirtle being over nerfed has argued that the Nair nerf was unwarranted. They're just upset with everything else.

Everything else was extremely minor other than nair. EXTREMELY. Nothing gamechanging at all, even when combined.

Ulevo said:
As for the Lucario complaints, I don't know where Lucario is sitting at right now. But this is how he should be going about his business:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7njb4eiBXcg

Lucario had one glitch on his Extreme Speed when used on the ground where he would always attack or grab facing left regardless of the direction traveled. Aside from fixing that, the Lucario build was fantastic.

So... If this is the current Lucario build, I suggest haters reconsider their complaints and give him another serious look. If the devs changed Lucario, then... I can see why complaints would be warranted; it's just tampering with a nice product after that point.

That is the exact same build we have right now. Nothing changed.

DevilKiller said:
The 1.0 Lucario Up-B was fun and spammy. Either you escape from the opponent, or the opponent can't escape from you.
The 1.5 Lucario was nerfed for political reasons. It is now boring and viable at the same time, in Brawl Minus standards at least.

But as standardtoaster said, it's way too easy to stall with Up-B. No one can approach you because you either hit them with the hitbox, or cancel it and practically fly away from them. It's a tough game of tag, and when you tag Lucario, you get hit.

About the lack of combo ability as noted from SilenceofNoOne, Extremespeed works more like a pursuit tool for failed comboes, so that it wasn't all in vain. It also closes the gap between players pretty fast when cancelled, so cancel it with fair and use any other, stronger move. Sometimes, jumping isn't fast enough, hence we use the move EXTREMESPEED.

...Have you used grounded extremespeed? EVER?

Peach- my friend used her mostly, and he said the random items were more annoying than anything. because he doesn't look at his character when he pulls turnips to edgeguar

>implying edgeguarding with a pitfall is more difficult than with turnips

and seriously, all of the lucas mains I've talked to think Lucas is OP. You guys need to l2momentumtricksies

ss118 · Jun 23, 2010

What I mean is: he pulls out a beam sword or lip's stick and he tries to throw it, but can't because it isn't a throwing item.

Izaniki · Jun 23, 2010

@SS118: For Zelda's double dins, you have to hold the B on the first din's until before the point where her arm finishes the animation and then hit B again. The timing is really tight, so just mess around with it some.

As for practicing with her hitboxes: once you learn where they are, it really changes how good she is against you as well. Some things to note when trying to combo with lightning kicks (depending on % and DI): bair(ghost) almost perfectly leads into another bair (SH'd and slight movement away from opponent and it almost autocombos) while fair(ghost) leads into bair(ghost) which in turn can go to a bair or some other stuff.

Needless to say, depending on DI, she has some amazing combos.

Dunno if it's just me messing up terribly or what, but sometimes when I DI down against LKs, whether I tech or not, I'm going to get hit again. Am I DIing them wrong? It seems like no matter which direction I DI, I'm going to get hit at least 2 more times

@TKbreezy · Jun 23, 2010

ss118 said:
a cute sarcastic way of telling me to **** off in a long *** post format

1. Im not allowing you to use the "I play melee john"...its hard for brawlers to convert back and forth through brawl- and Vbrawl also but we still do it
2.if you pulled out anything from what i said then i did "Help"...and the quotations shoulda let you know I really wasn't trying to help as much as I could have.
3. Squirtle SHOULD be one of the best in the game...and the only thing that really made him OP in 1.0 was that nair..which, like everyone said, deserved a nerf. he still has counters...because i can tell you right now pikachu vs squirtle is not fun at all for squirtle
(and he still isnt as nearly broken as auto pilot luigi) just saying.
4.about kirbys nair cancel...look at it like this
you have a move that last for a whole second (maybe a little more) but the hitbox stops after half a second wouldn't you like to be able to jump cancel that?
5. if you are such a melee player why don't you just play fox anyway???

[TSON] · Jun 23, 2010

I want to delete Pikachu altogether.

No lie.

ss118 said:
What I mean is: he pulls out a beam sword or lip's stick and he tries to throw it, but can't because it isn't a throwing item.

Beam sword was in Brawl. All we added was lip's stick. You can't honestly tell me it's that hard to check what you pull out of the ground before you go offstage

ss118 · Jun 23, 2010

We play Brawl- because we like the concept over Brawl+ and hate vBrawl. And even then, we play melee more.

Sometimes you need to keep your eye on your opponent over yourself while edgeguarding: this is especially true when using projectiles. And when you want to throw a turnip at the opponent, you may position it so that a smash throw when you do it. This requires you to either press smash side+a, or side on the c-stick. Since the sound effect is no different(unlike melee) for non-turnip pulling and we're looking at the opponent for positioning purposes, it wouldn't seem too farfetch'd for such a mistake to happen.

To w/e that guy's name is:

1) Fine I won't pull the melee john, especially when players such as M2K go back and forth on the fly and kick 2x as much *** as I do in both combined.

2) The only thing you "helped" on is make me question if the squirtle I have is truly the 1.5 version: if it is then you guys are complaining for nothing, really.

3) Nair is still OP in my version, as well as his fair, uair, bair, u-tilt, f-smash, d-tilt, up-b, and down-b. =)

4) I understand kirby's n-air JC-ability: I'm just curious as why it wasn't given complete IASA, since JC it is very awkward? Not to say it's bad, but in that case I could more easily incorprate it in my play. Unless the developers intended for there to be some technical depth to this game: in which case I <3 them more.

5) I do play fox: I attempt to play everyone, though, and it annoys me when I can't figure out how a character is generally used.

Anyway I just read a huge article on how to play with Lucas: I'll practice a bit and get back to you guys, since apparently he's oh-so OP.

@TKbreezy · Jun 23, 2010

ss118 said:
3) Nair is still OP in my version, as well as his fair, uair, bair, u-tilt, f-smash, d-tilt, up-b, and down-b. =)

implying you couldn't read up and find out my name.

to solve your friends "I don't know which item I have in my hand dilemma

bull****

throw with Z...that way regardless of what it is you will still throw it

and off of reading this I'm completely sure you, sir, are trolling.

if you took away all of the moves you say are OP in that list then you have a squirtle thats worst then brawl squirtle

and down-b is switch...how is that broken???

in fact, just explain to me how all of those moves are broken..humor me.

ss118 · Jun 23, 2010

Down+B was a joke, good sir. Though it wouldn't be too far from the truth, considering Ivysaur is pretty good and then Charizard is amazing: an up+b that kills at 40-ish % that's easy to set up, not to mention his infamous SR that makes certain characters almost useless versus him(lucas to my knowledge). Pretty **** good, imo.

Now squirtle's nair is huge: the entire hitbox hits about 2 squirtle lengths below and to the side of him, with not tremendous knockback but is nearly impossible to punish, especially if they retreat with it.

Fair shield pressures and does a helluva lot of damage: is a good kill move and combos into itself at low%.

Bair is similar to fair, but more range and less overall power.

Uair you can do like 5x fast before ending it with a fair for a quick 40%.

Up B has a huge hitbox that is nerly impossible to edgeguard: it also drags you with it, so getting hit by one part means you get hit by others

D-tilt knocks the opponent up, weaves in and out, shield pokes, and you can't really grab him out of it.

Finally, f-smash hits a sweetspotting mario: and it didn't take a genius to time, I promise.

Also the z thing is a pretty good(and obvious) idea: we never said it was a "problem", I merely suggested an extra sound effect. I mean, the developers do it for mostly everything else(see: falcon).

Also I never said "broken", I said "OP". But then again this is brawl-: everyone should be OP!

Budget Player Cadet_ · Jun 23, 2010

TKO727 said:
and down-b is switch...how is that broken???

Ivysaur 2gud

NO@H · Jun 23, 2010

ss118 said:
We play Brawl- because we like the concept over Brawl+ and hate vBrawl. And even then, we play melee more.

Don't want to start the whole melee vs brawl thing, but speak for yourself.

And you all should look at the title.

Particularly the word BETA

ss118 · Jun 23, 2010

And if it's a beta that means what?

Obviously the developers of Brawl- want this to be the best possible. And I too want it to be the best possible. If me asking questions so that I can get the most out of this game, and with that knowledge gain experience in the game, so that I can be well equipped to suggest changes is wrong in some manner in respect to this being a beta version, please tell me.

Budget Player Cadet_ · Jun 23, 2010

Yes.

WE WANT (constructive) FEEDBACK.

What we don't want is "char X sux now fix plox" or "char x is busted fix plox" or "x is so gay" with no reasoning behind it because that doesn't help us figure out what is wrong.

ss118 · Jun 23, 2010

If I did that please point out where I have and I will butt out.

Kink-Link5 · Jun 23, 2010

Alright after getting some time in with DK, I have a few suggestions that could help him with a few of his major problem areas. None of them include fixes for barrels that I can think of though ;[

Fair should always spike, it isn't a matter of making it easier to use, it's a matter of making it function better in DK's strings, considering unlike other characters with a spike, he doesn't have multiple jumps to space it (Falco, Kirby, ROB, Charizard, Pit, Yoshi), it doesn't hit multiple times (Fox, Kirby, Ivysaur[nair], Squirtle, Yoshi), it is not very fast (Falco, Fox, Pit, Yoshi, Marth, Lucario, maybe a few others) and it has a large amount of end lag compared to Mario, Ness, Yoshi, Marth, Kirby, Lucario, or Pit. In fact a minor speed buff in addition to always spiking would be very welcome.

Either have Up-B last longer, or let it be able to be made longer by holding B throughout it. The move works great for keeping an opponent away from the ledge, but then Donley Kong dies right afterward. If it had the option of extending its duration, DK could make it back as safely as, say, Lucario and still hit the opponent away.

Something to Nair, either increase its range, make it like Zeldas/Falcos (with only one hit) or add possibly wind hitboxes pushing away somewhere in it. The move is very very bad, even by vBrawl Bottom Tier standards.

Sorry I can't be of much help, but I'm trying my best to give feedback.

DunnoBro · Jun 23, 2010

bajisci said:
I'm well aware it needed to be nerfed, the move was broken. I only believe the nair was over nerfed and squirtle was over nerfed, why were his other moves nerfed? Also was KBG increased on fair to compensate for damage decrease?

Squirtle has immensive gimp, edgeguard, and combo potential. On par with mk for everything except recovery(inferior) and kill power(superior)

@TKbreezy · Jun 23, 2010

ss118 said:
Down+B was a joke, good sir. Though it wouldn't be too far from the truth, considering Ivysaur is pretty good and then Charizard is amazing: an up+b that kills at 40-ish % that's easy to set up, not to mention his infamous SR that makes certain characters almost useless versus him(lucas to my knowledge). Pretty **** good, imo.

Now squirtle's nair is huge: the entire hitbox hits about 2 squirtle lengths below and to the side of him, with not tremendous knockback but is nearly impossible to punish, especially if they retreat with it.

Fair shield pressures and does a helluva lot of damage: is a good kill move and combos into itself at low%.

Bair is similar to fair, but more range and less overall power.

Uair you can do like 5x fast before ending it with a fair for a quick 40%.

Up B has a huge hitbox that is nerly impossible to edgeguard: it also drags you with it, so getting hit by one part means you get hit by others

D-tilt knocks the opponent up, weaves in and out, shield pokes, and you can't really grab him out of it.

Finally, f-smash hits a sweetspotting mario: and it didn't take a genius to time, I promise.

Also the z thing is a pretty good(and obvious) idea: we never said it was a "problem", I merely suggested an extra sound effect. I mean, the developers do it for mostly everything else(see: falcon).

Also I never said "broken", I said "OP". But then again this is brawl-: everyone should be OP!

I'm not arguing with u with the nair...that **** was pretty broken

Fair does the same thing in regular brawl...and once again...even if it combos into itself at low percentage...to fair at low percentage doesnt mean you are going to die (like for instance if luigi hit you with to fairs)

take everything i said about Fair and apply it to bair

to my knowledge some people actually hate that uair doesnt have knockback...and also it barely does any damage anyway so you actually have to hit like 7 times to get 40 damage. overall its a nice addition which (when applied to everything else in this game) really isnt that broken

you can SDI Up-B to get out of it (or atleast avoid the last hit...which makes squirtle a sitting duck in that situation

Dtilt did the same thing in brawl (minus the IASA and the fact that it keeps moving you forward

you won't understand my gripe about Fsmash unless you played 1.0 squirtle but its whatever

also fair and bair are shield grabbable now...like alot of stuff in this game is

ss118 · Jun 23, 2010

At least you were more pleasant in this post.

Fair doesn't have IASA to the point where a player could shield pressure with no fear of retaliation in combination with the hitstun. Hell , you could let go of the shield button and have them still pressure your shield. Bair didn't have as much shield stun, but with his(her?) air mobility it didn't really matter, since it was like shield grabbing jigg's bair in melee.

U-air isn't broken. I said really good(probably said OP but w/e).

You can SDI the up+B, but 10$ says if you were going to edgeguard you weren't expecting to have to. Unless of course you were expecting to fail: in which case why attempt it and get damaged? Sure you should be prepared, but still. Not saying it's broken, saying it's good.

So dtilt does exactly what it did in vbrawl.... except for the changes that make it 20x better....

Squirtle's f-smash sends squirtle behind the person's shield: and with the hitstun, they won't retaliate.

Fair is not shield grabable: if you want I can send you a replay to prove it. Bair always was.

Honestly, thank you for not sounding so snobby. Sorry if I came out harsh at some parts, as well.

Kirk · Jun 23, 2010

Applications to the Brawl Minus Back Room are now available.

http://www.smashmods.com/forum/announcement-2.html

Follow to the link to apply if you are interested in being a part of the team!

Budget Player Cadet_ · Jun 24, 2010

ss118 said:
If I did that please point out where I have and I will butt out.

Not you, but in general.

doom dragon 105 · Jun 24, 2010

I really want to promote Brawl minus and I thought a great way would be to make a fourm combo video

Members here submit to me videos were you have one or a few really amazing combos.

You can submit as many as you like.

I have experience with video editing and I promise this video will be phenomenal.

BTW .BIN FILES ARE REPLAYS FROM THE GAME! LIKE THE REPLAYS YOU SAVE IN THE GAME!

However I do need clips from you guys to make this amazing.

My email is gnavas103@gmail.com just in case.

If your sending a clip it could be a .bin file.

If you have a video file you can send me that as well.

It it very beneficial for me for you to have a video instead

When you send me the video or the .bin please post a download link in this thread and make sure you type your tag (ie Doom), and at what point in the video is the combo(s) you would like for me to feature in the video.

If your sending me a .bin file make sure to mention the stage your using, because if I do not have that stage then the combos won't work. Also with the .bin file mention the version of brawl minus your using. Its either the newest one 1.5 or the first which was 1.0. Moves behave different with each so I will have to replay the .bin file with the corresponding version.

So an example of a proper form would be

Tag - Doom
Link - www.linkthing.whatever/blahblah
time of combo - 1:00,2:36,5:01

Version - 1.5 or 1.0
Stage - Hyrule Temple 64

And bob's your uncle

You can sumbit as many vids as you want so go nuts.

-----------------

E-mail me if anything

Aim or MSN is better

AIM - Doomdragon103
MSN - Big_g103@hotmail.com

Again thank you all in advance for making this happen

I will make a promotional banner very soon!

Post anything in the thread linked below.

Comeone guys we need vidssssss!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=278507

5ive · Jun 25, 2010

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/im5ive

Brawl- stream with Marik.

Eternal Yoshi · Jun 25, 2010

How'd you guys do the warlock punch laser? Can I get a JPG of the subaction parameters or something??

[TSON] · Jun 25, 2010

All that he did was spawn a ray gun and shoot 3 shots and delete it.

DevilKiller · Jun 26, 2010

TheSilenceOfNoOne said:
...Have you used grounded extremespeed? EVER?

Nope. (kicked in the balls from Silence)

Learning something new everyday. I sometimes swear that Silence's posts have more info than the actual changelists themselves.

5ive · Jun 26, 2010

Hosting a tournament today and going NESSSSSS

EmuKiller · Jun 26, 2010

Hey Guys! This is my first time posting on this thread. Here is what I think

Please fix olimar. I do not like the 1.5 olimar because it is very tough to attack an opponent that is in front of you. Has this already been addressed? The way his grab and smashes work is just ******** and unnecessary. It's really a deterrent for me to play as the character.

i like captain falcon a lot! He's probably my favorite character to play as. He's perfect. Maybe more flashy unnecessary stuff like cooler animations and random effects and more shouting. Can he say "yes" during n-air? Or give n-air fire (completely aesthetic no change to damage or KB). Maybe also a faster fastfall speed? Not completely necessary, but would make Isai Stomping a better approach. (Do people even still call it Isai Stomping? I'm old)

Luigi is frustrating to play against. Mostly the priority on his n-air and it's spamability with his other aerials. I dunno.... captain falcon vs luigi is very tough mostly because I can't get in on luigi. No attack of mine beats his n-air besides a perfectly sweetspotted f-air, and all luigi has to do is f-air right back and I lose. SERIOUSLY TOUGH.

Does anyone like the sliding motion on Marth's f-smash? In my opinion it just gives him less range and makes it tougher to f-throw->f-smash. I would remove it, because I see it as an unnecessary nerf.

Anyway, my thoughts suck and are exactly what you don't want to hear, so here is a concise list of a couple changes I think need to be made. NOTE: Some of this might have been fixed already? I'm not sure.

*Lower stun on luigi's up-tilt
*Lower priority or more landing lag on Luigi's n-air

*Fix olimar. Completely. Back to 1.0.

*Marth: Remove F-smash slide.

*C.Falcon: Faster fastfall speed.

EDIT *Squirtle: Keep 1.5 n-air, bring back to 1.0.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts. Obviously every character should be augmented in some way but these are the characters that I deal the most with and have formed the strongest opinion of.

Pierce7d · Jun 26, 2010

Uh, you can control the wavedash on Marth's Fsmash by angling it. Wavedash back Fsmash has been amazing, and I'm learning to incorporate the forward one

OceanBlue · Jun 26, 2010

You can slide in other directions than backwards? I've only been able to slide back by holding down.

Revven · Jun 26, 2010

Angle up to go forwards, angle down to go backwards.

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