since i have a bit of time and enough people find OS' wall of text to have enough credibility i'll couple my response to OS' in a response to Frozen here.
OS has some seriously good analysis on Omni. Like, rock solid. He brings a lot of good logic to the table and pretty accurately calls Omni out on things he IS guilty of, such has leaving a lot of shallow trails, harping mostly on inactives, etc. This isn't to say that the behaviors OS called Omni out on are true in totality, but as a general rule so far, what OS points out isn't misrepresentation of Omni at all.
good analysis? rock solid? i didnt think you of all people would agree to that. let's count the ways in order:
Your "random questions" is like adumbrodeus' statistical stuff. It only works in a few scenarios, otherwise it is just pointless drivel that doesn't create any solid connections in any way. It might help you but it doesn't help town.
failing to realize that it was an attempt (successful at that) to get out of the RVS.
By your own admission, you haven't been scum hunting at this point and have contributed little, if anything, to the game.
suggesting that a person who's actively trying to get the game starting has contributed nothing. at this point, i've already began getting Zensei to talk and redirected my questioning of Zensei to you (Frozen) which was backed by Tom. actually contributing "little, if anything" = just about half of the cast at this point including OS himself. frozen, do you agree with this statement?
Nice scum hunting. Asking questions to people you don't know that only help you, the only investigative question practically being OMGUS because it is on someone that calls you out for posting WIFOM-laced questions, two complaints on one inactive, a complaint on another inactive, and a vote on yet another.
You're practically a powerhouse, except you could have replaced most of what you've done with saying "@mod, can you prod (name)?" and by using the search feature on smashboards.
failing to realize that's near impossible to scumhunt when half the game decides not to talk AND the game is extremely early into Day 1. asking questions to exit RVS and stir up ANY kind of discussion, involving you (Frozen) in the mix about my interaction with Zensei, and putting placeholder votes on inactives to encourage them to start playing the game.
but i guess i could come in mid Day 1 and argue that someone hasn't "done anything" purposely ignoring that almost everyone has done nothing. what Overswarm thinks he finds me guilty of can be applied to a multitude of players however because he's only focused on me he attempts to paint it into a bad light and apply it to me.
again, finding it amusing that someone who hasn't done jackdilly is accusing someone else of also doing jackdilly.
ALL of your questions have served no purpose other than to make YOU feel more comfortable by your own admission.
im going to go ahead and post ALL of my questions up to this point.
@zensei and xonar: obligatory "who the **** are you" procedure. how long have you been playing mafia? how many games? if you were scum who in this game would you choose to be your scumbuddy?
getting myself and the rest of the game familiar with how experienced/inexperienced these players are. if i received an answer that Meta-Kirby, for example, is a very experienced player only for him introduce himself with my pressure on him in the way that he did something wouldn't add up. the fact that i knew that Meta-Kirby was slightly new helped me to determine if his reaction was scummy or chummy. also and RVS exiter question
@marshy: you've hosted enough games to be familiar with these guys. who are the two weakest players in this game
attempting to distinguish the weakest players in the game so if a toss-up occurs i can feel comfortable leaning one way or the other. also interested to see Marshy's thoughts on the weakest players and wanted to see if anyone else disagreed with his choices. also, a main RVS exiter question
Why would I be a good choice? I don't understand your choice for picking me.
in response to Zensei's: "uh idk how about you". this struck me as intriguingly odd since the interaction between Zensei and myself has been a bare minimum and he's only seen me play less than 3/4's of a game (Code Geass). purpose of this question is to gain understanding as to why Zensei would make an unusual selection of having me as scum.
in response to Vander's: "why the pale green color?" interesting. i'm attempting to leave the RVS stage and i have Vander asking me a question that... does... nothing? i recall that my first post in the game was "bringing back that palegreen" so if that was indicative enough of why i was using green im not sure what would be. even if i hadn't hinted to it again, why does the color of my font matter in the least bit? you **** right imma ask this question
xonar, who are you talking to, and wtf are you talking about?
in response to Xonar's post:
Rofl I'm just so lazy in mafia games that I don't get any rep.
I'm no fun anyway, I never get lynched
(muahahahahaha)
i think the purpose of my question (and for some reason im the only person who questioned Xonar) is clear.
well u tell me frozen. do u see anything strange about zensei's answer to my question
in response to Frozen suggesting that my questions are WIFOM null-tells. at this point i clearly had an issue with Zensei pointing me out as his scumbuddy pick when i was under the impression that he had way more interaction with the rest of the players in the cast since i don't recall having much interaction with him at all. i found it strange. tom wanted you (Frozen) to also answer this question and it was a way for me to get you to start talking more about the players and their interactions (me and Zensei) instead of you just commenting on how someone's RVS exiter questions are WIFOM null-tells.
can you stop being lazy and give me more detail? also, explain why macman.
in response to Xonar's response: "a lot, alot, macman". purpose of this question is clear. xonar, start playing the game please and also please answer the question sufficiently so i can understand your thought process a bit better
@OS: you done actively coasting? your presence is there but there hasn't been any content to any of your posts all game and you seem to be contributing in other mafia games. must be difficult to get things going when you're scum
in response to Overswarm posting in other mafia games but ignoring this one entirely. calling him out on his active coasting and taunting him a bit to get him posting in the game. i'll never hesitate to call out active coasting players since i think those are the most dangerous/scummy kind of inactives
do you still agree with OS' statement, Frozen?
ALL of your questions have served no purpose other than to make YOU feel more comfortable by your own admission.
because you seem to think that Overswarm has performed a good analysis of my game thus far which strikes me as odd since i think it's horrible.
And yes, the spotlight is negative when ALL DAY you go on about it and no other discussion can surface. You're very loud, Omni.
failing or refusing to acknowledge/notice that the majority of the discussion was actually stemmed from me. also suggesting that the entire game up to this point has been nothing but inactive talk. hardly. i have and i will harp on inactives early game to step up their ****. to have a game start and have literally 4+ people not be involved in anyway halfway into the Day is not normal nor is it favorable.
In addition... you say "not gonna speak now, I'll let scum speak up". That's cool, but you haven't done anything yet in the first place. :\[/COLOR
if Overswarm thinks i haven't done anything at this point then the rest of the players must be waiting for their role pm to come in. this is another one of many OS's overdramatized statements.
Omni, you just attack Meta-Kirby FOR ASKING WHY YOU VOTED FOR SOMEONE. Then after he finally just says "eff you", he replies in pictures and you say "lol he won't be useful under pressure".
is that why i put pressure on MK? because he just asked why i voted for someone? let's go over exactly why i put pressure on MK:
Looks like Omni only decided to question certain people though =/. Lameeee. Oh well, Omni, why only certain people.
Marshy, why OS for your second pick?
@zensei and xonar: obligatory "who the **** are you" procedure.
Omni's "Attack said:
not sure if i like the questions you're asking, metakirby. they dont seem well thought out nor do they seem to serve much of a purpose.
is how it went down followed by a FOS from myself and marshEE. interestingly enough metakirby had nothing to say about this at all. just kept quiet like he usually does. then:
Care to provide reasoning, Omni?
was asked by MK after some more discussion (MK hadn't posted anything since his last question) regarding why i voted Xonar. at this point, it was very apparent that my votes have been placeholding on inactives to encourage them to start playing the game. thus my response to MK:
i'm not going to hold your hand, meta-kirby. and this is also another time where you've asked a question that i don't think has much substance or thought behind it. it's like your way of saying, "i'm trying to do something" but you're not really doing anything
unvote
Vote: Meta-Kirby
btw, i refuse to believe that you couldn't come up with an educated guess as to why i voted Xonar. i dont feel like that question was a real attempt to gain clarity just like most of the questions you've been asking
followed by:
so far you've only been sitting back and answering questions and casually throwing out questions that i find to be rather weak and phony.
so basically, Overswarm was incorrect again. no surprise there.
Yes, there is Omni. You've been a stellar example.
was in response to:
but there is a such thing as an empty question, or asking questions just for the sake of questions to look like you're being helpful/useful
cmon, chaco. are you serious?
what do you think of vote on metakirby? what do you think of his play so far? do you agree or disagree with what i've said about him? why or why not?
suggesting that i'm a great example of asking empty questions or asking questions for the sake of questions to look helpful. i already went over how his assessment of my questions was inaccurate. and if u look at the same post that he quoted me in i'm asking a pretty detailed question to Chaco to see what his views are on MK vs. Myself. ironic (but not really).
You've just picked on MKirby because he questioned you and disagreed with you!
portraying me as a bully? wrong again about why i started pressuring him as explained above? sure.
okay. so far that's Overswarm's interpretation and read on my game at this point.
Tom however feels differently both here and here. completely the opposite. i'm going to ask (Frozen) do you disagree with Tom's interpretation of my play because it goes exactly against Overswarm's interpretation of my play which you seem to agree with being solid.
Nice, a possible town confirm because.... Tom is doing his homework.
Nothing particularly big here, but still the biggest contribution you have.
suggesting that my stalking of Tom viewing Batmafia and doing his HW was my biggest contribution. bad. bad, bad, bad. but do you (Frozen) agree with this, too? and to wrap it up.
If by "scumhunting" you mean voting for inactives, complaining about inactives, and taunting Meta-Kirby, then sure.
You've focused on one person only: Meta-Kirby. Everything else is about inactives. EVERYTHING.
What information have you received? I'm curious.
doesn't realize that there is information or development of the game up to that point?
My "thesis" is that you have no bite to your actions. None of your actions help town in any way.
you also agree that these statements are a solid assessment of my play?
FoS: FrozenFlame
anyone who thinks that OS' posts was a solid analysis of my play does not sit well with me. i could see it from some of the weaker and less experienced players but you seem to really like his concepts on me. frankly, that scares me.
and to keep things updated Overswarm moves his next vote over to marshEE because he's been inactive. he practically commits to the idea that i've been doing this horrible sin all game only to finally do the same thing himself. okay.
------------
Bearing this in mind I came to the conclusion that within the scope of that argument, OS was the "winner" so to speak. His LoAs are still standing and Omni pretty much backed down from going "tit for tat" so I imagine he isn't doing to pursue the contesting of said LoAs. However, the "winner" of an argument does not by any means make them the townier of the arguers, though I imagine this is pretty obviously to most if not everyone in this game.
this is cool. what are LoA's btw?
So basically there were a few key points that I've been trying to derive intent from and figure out if this is TvT, TvS, SvS, something with an indy, whatever.
The very first line here where he talks about "liking to manipulate people as scum" just reeks of being disingenuous, reason being, if you think about it in the context of the rest of his post where he goes on to talk about how there are other "big names" in the game that he wants to hear from (the LoA he uses to justify being less active), it makes sense that he might pitch this gambitty "I play this way when I'm scum" to us when in actuality, maybe in a game with "bigger names" or more experienced players, his manipulative puppet master leader style might not be quite so effective.
i didnt read that comment of his as a gambit. more of an overswarm "i dont mind outwardly expressing my intentions as mafia". but that's fine.
Furthermore the whole line about "oh man guys I'm such a good guy but I did something bad (being inactive), you should've called be out. Here I'll hold you hand" just comes off as a classic attempt at trying to buy "easy" credibility by pointing out an obvious flaw (regardless of whether its your own or someone else) and suggesting an obvious remedy.
agree.
As far as the rest of what OS brings to the table go, not a whole lot really bothered me in a big way but I'll be pruning his analysis some more later and I'll touch on anything else that suggests scummy intent.
ok. im still a bit intrigued/surprised that you're not bothered by OS's approach but ok.
Moving on to Omni, basically a lot of OS's analysis holds true on him and as such, his early approach to the game does have some scummy traits. Unfortunately, I see a lot of these traits that OS points out to be pretty standard Omni style, and as most of you should know I don't have much of a penchant for determining alignment via meta. But other than being in general agreement with what OS posits, there were a couple other things Omni said that lean on the scummy side.
answer this Frozen: what about my early approach to the game is scummy? it's one thing to be accurate about my approach (which isn't complicated in the least bit), but it's another to outwardly believe that it is scummy in nature. please explain in detail what you found scummy about my early game.
@ you being in a general agreement of OS' posts. definitely need to know what you agree with him because i disagreed with almost everything he stated in regards to interpretation
- The immediate conclusion that Omni came to that OS was "tunneling" him. I see this as a knee-jerk characterization and the quoting of OS saying basically "IGMEOY Omni" early in the game just looks like a scramble to support his tunneling accusation. Not that it doesn't fit as supporting evidence, but it seems like Omni was going out of his way to make it seem like OS was in fact tunneling when if he really was, it would likely be obvious without pissant quotes of that nature. OS launched a big attack on Omni, that won't be disputed, however just because OS's only big attack has been on Omni so early in the game hardly qualifies him as tunneling. Heck, I've barely commented on anyone outside of KBot, Omni, and OS. Does that mean I'm tunneling on them? No, it just means that the game is still young and obviously unless someone is pitching a lot of shallow cases on people, they aren't going to have an incredibly diverse scope of focus.
the tunneling accusation came from Overswarm's real post in the game being an extremely long-winded post analysis on a player he said he'd be watching before anything of scum like nature actually occurred. i wasn't going "out of my way" to make it seem like anything, Frozen. i said it plain and clear that Overswarm was tunneling. interesting that you word it like that.
what do you consider tunneling, Frozen? i think when a player comes into mid-Day after being completely absent from the game and only focuses on one player's posts in order to execute judgment without focusing on the game as a whole is tunneling.
also, your scope of focus has only been on Kbot, OS, and myself. i would like to hear your thoughts on the rest of the players of the game since those thoughts are important and can be made however you have only chosen to comment on the three of us. the game at this point is not shallow enough that you can only viably comment on 3/12 players in the game.
- The implication that "if OS v Omni is TvT, then it's a waste of time" that Omni makes really rubs me the wrong way. How did you come to this conclusion Omni? When has TvT ever been a waste of time? In fact when is really in depth discussion between two players ever a waste of time?
it's pretty obvious. i concluded that Overswarm is just a tunneling liability and the majority of his points made were incorrect and badly misinterpretated. i call it more of a waste of time for him and i to go back and forth since i've already made several ties and connections with many of the players in the game where Overswarm has only committed to 1 (me). since i know i'm town i want to know what Overswarm thinks about the entire game and not just tunnel single players individually. it's not difficult to only quote one player's posts the entire game and interpret it as either scummy or townie if you use the end of mind train of thought process and block out all other interactions.
Just on the most basical level you're establishing strong connections between the interacting players, and you're probably pushing both players to their expressive capacities, a situation where any given player is most likely to have linguistic cracks that will show their true intent. Beyond that, you (Omni) say it possibly being TvT is bad because then the scum can manipulate the scenario. Seriously dude? It's the scum's JOB to manipulate EVERY scenario. The point is you want to CATCH them doing it. That statement comes off as very slight fear mongering, but regardless the point is that whether big discussion be TvS, TvT, SvS, or whatever type of comp. you can think of, people are gonna get involved, and when you push a lot of people to discuss and analyze really in depth conversation, you're going to build the connections and linguistic trails that you (Omni) have been claiming to champion all game. How you could dismiss your interaction with OS as possibly being a waste of time despite your alleged effort to be the driving force behind connection creation in the like seems off, if not contradictory.
i believe my main concern is that enough people have NOT been getting involved. rather, the majority of players as i said early have been sitting back and just waiting for players to ask them questions.
i dismissed most of Overswarm's post off the sheer fact that i felt that it was... bad. like, really bad. however, as i stated, i did draw a ridiculously long response post to Overswarm's post in its entirety and all of it did get erased. then our interactions increased more after the fact with summarized replies. the "waste of time" factor mainly derives from the fact i wasn't going to go into a ******** "quote and comment on every sentence you make" war with OS since only commenting on specific statements rather than giving an opinion on a general statement leads to a very tedious tit for tat.
In conclusion, (tl;dr version) I've got OS as being the argument "winner". OS is guilty of some strange suggestive language in his earlier post which gives me a slight scum vibe but overall I'm getting a town read on him thus far. Omni, though behaving in a pretty standard manner, is coming off more scummy but not really so much by virtue of the attack OS mounted on him, but rather, the nature of his response TO the attack and characterization of the exchange.
hm. this is pretty good.
I'd still rather lynch Bot over either of them though because of just overall bad play that I touched on in my last post, but if I had to go with one of those two it'd be Omni.
i like the commitment here. i don't like that i'm second on your lynch list, but when it only has 3 people in it i guess it means i'm breaking even.
thoughts on MetaKirby vs. Me exchange?
who do you want to hear more from?
tell me what you think of both tom and marshEE and their play so far.
also want to know how your opinion on chaco for now as well.
