[m-1, 14, 28] avril lavigne mafia - over

Omni · Jul 16, 2010

what i mean is when you are pressured, MetaKirby, you curl up and take things personal. wah wah it up. basically, any pressure put on you is followed up by an AtE. i think this is the second time you've felt the need to say, "i'm not stupid".

being "in charge" is not a scummy quality. i would rather players try to take the "in charge" initiative then players taking the "sit back and wait for people to ask me questions" stance. regardless, scum can take charge just as easily as townie taking charge. it's a null-tell. you may dislike players who take charge but it doesn't have much to say about their alignment.

mac can u talk more
tom where u at

unvote

Tom · Jul 16, 2010

Nicholas1024 said:
Ugh, I'd forgotten I'd signed up to replace in this game. >.<

Anyways, claiming town gravedigger. Gotta read up.

wtf? why has no one commented on this?

OS's rebuttals, if they can be so called, were drastic, tampon-wringing oversimplifications of what Omni actually said in his defence. I'm convinced OS did so because his panties had twisted him into a tunnel more potent than anything Escher could ever conjure, and determined as he was to cut Omni's legs off and finding logic to be an uncooperative weapon, he settled for twisting his words into "NO U", because that was actually something he had a response for. In reality, Omni took his points blow by blow and systematically destroyed their already overreaching, craptacular BS foundations, proving literally every single thing OS said to be both false and blatant spin. Funny that OS would make no attempt whatsoever responding to this -- maybe he's not so good with the minutia against someone that won't back down because he had the audacity to use lots and lots of words. Or as he calls them, "supposedly good players". I call them "players with any measurable drop of competence running through their brains". OS entered into that offensive with the tips of his index fingers tickling his eardrums. Faced with the horror of a logically sound countercase ("I didn't do that, here's why:"), he opted to reply while inserting his fingers deeper into his ear canals to prevent any semblance of logic from sneaking inside and assaulting his faculties, shrieking the words "BLAH BLAH BLAH" vibrantly as he did so. This would, at least, explain the apparent brain damage he seems to have suffered in the course of the discussion.

P.S. I see you're still finding petty excuses to latch your vote onto us. Done pretending like it means anything?

s hitty post.

Tom · Jul 16, 2010

should live
tom
overswarm
zensei
omni
chaco
vanderzant
macman

dont trust
marshEE
frozenflame

can die today
k-bot
mk
nicholas (you need to contribute + elaborate on your completely unnecessary claim)

Overswarm · Jul 16, 2010

Nicholas, you managed to both out yourself without contributing OR being a prime lynch target, and managed to confirm there is a tracker/watcher out there as well.

Any particular reason you did that?

Nicholas1024 · Jul 16, 2010

I think that miller/gravedigger players should always claim upfront if they know their role. That way should they later be copped/tracked, they don't cause an unnecessary claim and mislynch later. But let me read up. I've got nearly 20 pages to go through here.

vanderzant · Jul 16, 2010

Wait, that was a claim? I thought it was a joke >.<. I don't even know what a gravedigger is...

Overswarm · Jul 16, 2010

vanderzant said:
Wait, that was a claim? I thought it was a joke >.<. I don't even know what a gravedigger is...

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Grave_Digger

Tom · Jul 16, 2010

Nicholas1024 said:
I think that miller/gravedigger players should always claim upfront if they know their role. That way should they later be copped/tracked, they don't cause an unnecessary claim and mislynch later. But let me read up. I've got nearly 20 pages to go through here.

ok. thats legit imo. but you still need to contribute. you should be able to read 8 pages (40ppp) in two hours (and its been about 10 since you replaced in

)

Nicholas1024 · Jul 16, 2010

@Tom
Yeah, well I literally went to bed right after seeing I replaced in and posting real quick, and I only got up an hour ago. Unlike some people, I can't stay up all night.

@people at large
Through 1/4th of the game, and so far, REALLY don't like Omni. Details in my reread post.

Omni · Jul 16, 2010

somehow i'm not too surprised. you don't like me in most games we play.

looking forward to your explanation

Nicholas1024 · Jul 16, 2010

FYI, I wrote this as I was going through the thread. So, this will let you see where I'm coming from.

Omni said:
@marshy: you've hosted enough games to be familiar with these guys. who are the two weakest players in this game

I really, REALLY don't like this. This reminds me perfectly of scum-Omni from Marathon mafia D, where he did the exact same thing, I called him on it, and he turned out to be Godfather.

Plus, his logic for that question is exactly the same as in the marathon mafia...

Omni said:
another question directed at marshy so i can get an opinion on who's weak in case there's a tie-up between two certain players

@Omni
Do you have an example game of where you did this and you were town?

Omni said:
huge dislike for chaco/macman right now. don't want their absences to effect the game, but if one if them is scum that could really hurt. really dislike people /in'ing games and not playing; plenty of other people with more activity could have taken that spot.

Give me some clarification here. Did you think Chaco/macman were scummy for this? Also, that was literally the day after the game started, isn't that a bit early to start hating on people for activity?

Posts #100 - #110:
Really don't like Meta Kirby here, liking Omni a bit more. I mean, meta-kirby's basically shouting out to the world "I DON'T CARE". No pro-scum reason to do that, but still.... Ugh.

Omni said:
OS was actively coasting. Xonar is just plain inactive/nonexistent. i already called OS out for his inactivity so Xonar wins my placeholder vote until I find someone I think is scummy.

incorrect. asking, "are you stressed" is one of many pressure tactics/questions that is used when a person is trying to feel who they are targeting. it serves a purpose.

so yes, i do care to know if MK is stressed.

from my rather small push on MK i do feel that his response is that of a pressured townie. it was a rather horrible play and AtE that even scum has succumbed to doing. getting "annoyed" and "flustered" because they're getting pressured and cant answer questions properly are very strong hints of scummy players, but can sometimes just be a very worried townie.

my read on MK is that he is leaning more towards the townie side ONLY because he is still somewhat new. anyone with more experience that im familiar with would be on my lynch list immediately but i think i can identify with MK's responses as a flailing town who's not use to being targeted/pressured.

@MK: tom said everything i would've probably waited until after game to tell you. if you are town you're the only person who can confirm it. expect to be pressured/questioned. im a very aggressive player and i grill hard, but it's for the sake of information gathering and as you can see toDay resulted in a lot of good info. from this point on i'm treating you like a vet so expect no mercy if i feel the need to latch onto you again

unvote
Vote: Xonar

@Zensei: sup

For the record, MK-indy really started flailing about when I turned the spotlight on him in DBZ mafia. So at the moment, I think he's just playing badly, and his shenanigans are a null-tell.

vanderzant said:
Ok. I'd be slightly put off if you thought he was scum from that. Though I'm also relatively new, I can't say I've NEVER been in a game where AtE has been a legit scumtell. Look at Mayfia for example. A lot of "guys I'm not scum I proooommmissee" came from many Townies (Mr.E, Soaring Raptor Blast, Hida iirc) but the mafia happened to be the two most calm and collected players (Mayling and Mcfox, and to a degree Roxy). So I don't read too much into AtE unless it comes in a LYLO MYLO, and is supplemented by other stuff.

For the record, read this post. IMO, ATE is a player-dependent scumtell. Unless someone has a proven track record of getting emotional as scum but not as town, null-tell.

I don't normally care for PBPA, but I think OS's #154 on Omni is legit. And Omni's response basically being "U tunneling? Bad OS.", I'm disliking Omni again.

Post #167
Feels to me like Omni's avoiding confrontation until he can figure out what other people think. That reminds me of the tactics I used to use as scum... I'd delay posting until I saw some other responses, so I'd know how to keep suspicion off me. FYI Omni... that doesn't work.

Overswarm said:
I don't think scum is going to be too terrified of you anyway. It's infinitely more likely from your play that you're scum and Vanderzant or MKirby is scum with you (both?), and all scum would have to do to avoid you is to post more than Xonar but never respond to you. You've only attacked inactives and people that have questioned you.

Although I agree with Omni-scum, where's MKirby or Vand-scum coming from? Omni vs MKirby did not feel like S v.s S to me.

marshEE said:
im on vacation and i think theres some more content from the last few posts that ill get to later but for now i just wanna say

then its not a good post considering he voted him

lmfao

the dumb or scum dilemma begins

so how many protown players are you gonna help kill this game due to your laughable ineptitude at scumhunting os?

omni im glad youre disregarding os' bull**** andve opted to keep playing your game. i dont blame you for shrugging off os' offense (doesnt deserve to be called a case) and i can assure you that anyone with an iota of scumhunting ability has probably put him on their ignore list after that post. feel free to respond to it later but just keep it concise so this doesnt become a convoluted ****storm. brevity is protown

no @ mk/omni scumteam

vote van

I don't like how you just shrugged off Overswarm's entire thing without giving any reasoning why. Explain why it should be ignored.

Kirby-Bot said:
Haven't talked with Kirby about this little spat between Omni and OS yet but my personal opinion is that, should we not find a better lynch candidate soon, Omni's a primary one. To be honest he's leaning Town to me but I'm not getting a major scum read on anyone so far.

OS and Tom? You mean as in their play? Neither of them are particularly scummy imo.

Ugh. You think he's town but you'll lynch him anyway? Awful post. Just flat-out awful. How can you not have a scum read by this point?

Omni said:
welp that sucks. friend restarted my laptop so my extremely long response is gone

kinda happy tho. going tit for tat with you, overswarm, aint gonna take us anywhere and is only going to take away attention from other players that should be focused on. your demanding attitude as a person who hasn't done anything except create a long tunneled push towards someone you were prepared to push early game is awful.

to summarize, i basically said that your entire interpretation was overdramatized, incorrect, and forced. when i read statements like "you've done absolutely nothing" or "why havent you left your mark" or interpreting that i was just bullying MK for no real reason i dont really think it's worth the time to acknowledge it. anyone who knows how to play mafia well knows that you've immediately fallen into the scum or dumb pile. the only people i see supporting you are inexperienced players and MetaKirby because he's still salty. i'm actually VERY surprised that Chaco is attached your essay.

i'm just one person. i already told Meta Kirby i'm not holding his hand. i'm not going to sit you down and explain to you how horrible of a post that was in detail. maybe Tom or someone else will be nice enough to. at this moment you're just a liability

No response? Convenient for you, huh? Another delay tactic.

Omni said:
can stay: me, tom, marshEE, metakirby, mac
should be lynched: kirbybot, zensei, chaco, vander
needs to be replaced: xonar, frozen

Wait, what? I don't see what Chaco and Vand have done to be on any lynch list. Explain. also not seeing why Macman is on your townie list... aside from him pushing kirby-bot's awful post, he hasn't done much.

Also, Omni's elaboration on Chaco sucks. I think he realized that going after Overswarm would be way too obvious Oh-my-gosh-you-suck, so instead he goes after the people agreeing with overswarm.

frozenflame751 said:
Ok so basically here's where I'm at:

- /agreed that Omni and OS getting into an epic post battle doesn't need to happen, but that isn't to say that that a great exchange that is ripe for digestion. OS's post upon my initial reaction seems to me like it will be the most telling of the exact nature of the exchange (TvT, TvS, SvS, etc.) I need to go through OS's case again bit by bit so I'm gonna wait on laying down my verdict on this interaction until I can comb through the details of OS's LoA building.

- good to see macman finally posting. (Though I imagine the same can be said about me)

- Marshy how the heck did you get from that brief analysis in your post to a Vand vote? Did i miss something?

- Is it just me or has KirbyBot literally done nothing but parrot like CRAZY all game? Like seriously look:

Like this is all just REALLY shallow analysis that doesn't reek of dumb at all, just lazy and scummish because it is blatant either over simplification of related talking points or misconstruing/parroting of cases.

And then this just reeks of classic "I'll just nip at everyone from the side until someone mentions me, and try to wave away their case with lame, shortsighted questions pertaining the the scope of the attacks":

Unvote: Macman
Vote: Kirby-bot

It's been awhile since I had such a strong read leaning scum in a dumb/scum situation like this.

Yay, Frozen posted. Hopefully he'll keep it up. Agreed with his analysis on Kirby-bot, and I'm interested to see what he thinks about OS vs Omni.

I like Frozen's #234 as well. This could actually be the first game I've been in with him (aside from the BIM's) which he's (semi) active in.

Hey, in #246, Omni actually responds. I'll admit that I skimmed this post, because of time constraints and wanting to get this analysis out. I'll read it in full later. However, I still think he's scummy, not so much because of Overswarm's case, but because of the extremely scummy way he reacted to said case in the beginning.

Anyways, I still need to read from that post onwards. However, I think the play today is clear.

My top 3 scumlist

1: Omni
2: Kirby-bot
3: MarshEE

So in accordance,

Vote: Omni
FOS: Kirby-bot, MarshEE

Overswarm · Jul 16, 2010

Nicholas1024 said:
FYI, I wrote this as I was going through the thread. So, this will let you see where I'm coming from.

I really, REALLY don't like this. This reminds me perfectly of scum-Omni from Marathon mafia D, where he did the exact same thing, I called him on it, and he turned out to be Godfather.

Plus, his logic for that question is exactly the same as in the marathon mafia...

@Omni
Do you have an example game of where you did this and you were town?

Are you implying that he'd only ask these questions as mafia, and that these questions themselves can be considered a scum tell?

Overswarm · Jul 16, 2010

My top 3 scumlist

1: Omni
2: Kirby-bot
3: MarshEE

Why MarshEE? You barely mentioned him in your post.

Nicholas1024 · Jul 16, 2010

That's what I want to know. I want to see an example of him asking these questions in a game as town. If he can't give me one, he's mafia for sure. If he can, he becomes a little less suspicious.

Overswarm · Jul 16, 2010

Nicholas1024 said:
That's what I want to know. I want to see an example of him asking these questions in a game as town. If he can't give me one, he's mafia for sure. If he can, he becomes a little less suspicious.

Why would that make him mafia for sure?

Nicholas1024 · Jul 16, 2010

Overswarm said:
Why MarshEE? You barely mentioned him in your post.

Ninja. MarshEE just hasn't done much. I don't like how marshy just blew off your entire case on Omni, simply because he thinks you suck as a player. That is not a reason to ignore an argument. If Omni shows up town, marshy will drop from my scumlist, but if he's scum, then marshy's next.

Nicholas1024 · Jul 16, 2010

Overswarm said:
Why would that make him mafia for sure?

Meta. He's asked it before as scum. If he doesn't ask it as town, then since he asked it in this game, he is scum. QED.

Overswarm · Jul 16, 2010

Nicholas1024 said:
Ninja. MarshEE just hasn't done much. I don't like how marshy just blew off your entire case on Omni, simply because he thinks you suck as a player. That is not a reason to ignore an argument. If Omni shows up town, marshy will drop from my scumlist, but if he's scum, then marshy's next.

I don't see why you'd make a connection between Omni and MarshEE's alignments. Relations for every player connected with them have been transparent, and both are good enough to latch on to a town player, knowing that if they flip they'll get a "soft clear". No one's flip at this point guarantees an auto-scum, imo.

Meta. He's asked it before as scum. If he doesn't ask it as town, then since he asked it in this game, he is scum. QED.

Didn't you just criticize MarshEE for using meta on me? Correlation does not equal causation; while Omni's statement could be a sign, I highly disagree with it being a guaranteed "omg you're scum". Knowing Omni, he's going to reply with "you're dumb" and not give you a quote of him asking it anyway, so I don't know what you plan to get.

Could you elaborate on your Omni case? You have him as your #1 scum pick, but haven't made any concrete statements towards him. Just implications and then questions that could change your opinion. Kirby-Bot has one quote in your post that you flat out disagreed with and he made it to #2 on your list.

Do you have anything other than meta and Omni's delay tactics as a complaint against Omni?

Nicholas1024 · Jul 16, 2010

Overswarm said:
I don't see why you'd make a connection between Omni and MarshEE's alignments. Relations for every player connected with them have been transparent, and both are good enough to latch on to a town player, knowing that if they flip they'll get a "soft clear". No one's flip at this point guarantees an auto-scum, imo.

Good point, I'd forgotten about what he did with Macman in scum wars. Still though, his reasoning (or lack thereof) still bothers me.

Didn't you just criticize MarshEE for using meta on me? Correlation does not equal causation; while Omni's statement could be a sign, I highly disagree with it being a guaranteed "omg you're scum". Knowing Omni, he's going to reply with "you're dumb" and not give you a quote of him asking it anyway, so I don't know what you plan to get.

I'm all for meta if used properly. Using it as an excuse to skim and ignore arguments is not legit. But anyways, if Omni can't give an example, I'd be comfortable pushing a wagon on him on that basis alone. It's not 100% surefire every time, but it'd be quite a nice tell.

Could you elaborate on your Omni case? You have him as your #1 scum pick, but haven't made any concrete statements towards him. Just implications and then questions that could change your opinion. Kirby-Bot has one quote in your post that you flat out disagreed with and he made it to #2 on your list.

Do you have anything other than meta and Omni's delay tactics as a complaint against Omni?

Mainly meta, his delay tactics + extremely scummy reaction to you attacking him, attacking Chaco on the basis of oh-my-gosh-you-suck, and the fact that your case against him is in fact legit.

Omni · Jul 16, 2010

Nicholas1024 said:
I really, REALLY don't like this. This reminds me perfectly of scum-Omni from Marathon mafia D, where he did the exact same thing, I called him on it, and he turned out to be Godfather.

Plus, his logic for that question is exactly the same as in the marathon mafia...

it's a null-tell, Nich. you can't meta nulls. trying to just makes you look silly. considering that i can apply this question as town or mafia and it still have the same effect (exiting RVS stage). i'd also be more reluctant to lean towards the meta side if it happened one more than one occasion as me being scum but to take a single instance and attempt to reapply to this game. just no.

Nicholas1024 said:
@Omni
Do you have an example game of where you did this and you were town?

do your homework. beats me. i use it a lot in games where i'm unfamiliar with the cast. it benefits me as both town and mafia so i can get a better read on the player's experience. it also helps leave the RVS stage which im not a fan of

Nicholas1024 said:
Give me some clarification here. Did you think Chaco/macman were scummy for this? Also, that was literally the day after the game started, isn't that a bit early to start hating on people for activity?

did i say chaco/macman were scummy for being inactive into Day 1? if u don't know by now i don't like inactives/inactivity. my threshold of what is early and what isn't seems to be different as well. not sure why you're making a point out of me dissing chaco/macman for inactivity seeing as that tom, frozen, and marshEE placed their votes on them as well. i just voice my dislike

Nicholas1024 said:
I don't normally care for PBPA, but I think OS's #154 on Omni is legit. And Omni's response basically being "U tunneling? Bad OS.", I'm disliking Omni again.

way to oversimplify my entire post. care to run this by me again?

Nicholas1024 said:
Post #167
Feels to me like Omni's avoiding confrontation until he can figure out what other people think. That reminds me of the tactics I used to use as scum... I'd delay posting until I saw some other responses, so I'd know how to keep suspicion off me. FYI Omni... that doesn't work.

another null-tell that you're twisting into a scumtell. i explained my reasoning for avoiding immediate confrontation. Overswarm had no connections with anyone seeing as that was his first real post in the game. i thought (and still think) the post was terrible. was very curious to see how other people would view his argument before i posted my direct response to it in order to garner more information.

i dont need help trying to figure out how to debunk a terrible argument.

Nicholas1024 said:
No response? Convenient for you, huh? Another delay tactic.

no. if you assume that i'm lying about losing my entire long-winded response then yes it can be looked at as a delay tactic. do you think i'm lying aka purposely stalling for time, Nich?

Nicholas1024 said:
Wait, what? I don't see what Chaco and Vand have done to be on any lynch list. Explain. also not seeing why Macman is on your townie list... aside from him pushing kirby-bot's awful post, he hasn't done much.

exactly. what has Chaco and Vand done period? give me a reason why they shouldn't be lynched? at that point that was my lynch pool tho i obviously had people with more priority over them. and mac hasn't said anything awful coupled with the fact that i've agreed with a majority of his posts. there's nothing off about him.

Nicholas1024 said:
Also, Omni's elaboration on Chaco sucks. I think he realized that going after Overswarm would be way too obvious Oh-my-gosh-you-suck, so instead he goes after the people agreeing with overswarm.

no. overswarm's post sucked. therefore anyone supporting looked suspicious to me. stop skimming; i addressed why i went after said people with specific explanations. don't misinterpret my reasons for targeting players when i've stated why i went after said players unless you want to believe i'm lying completely.

Nicholas1024 said:
Hey, in #246, Omni actually responds. I'll admit that I skimmed this post, because of time constraints and wanting to get this analysis out. I'll read it in full later. However, I still think he's scummy, not so much because of Overswarm's case, but because of the extremely scummy way he reacted to said case in the beginning.

okay. stop skimming and fully read my post.

Nicholas1024 said:
Anyways, I still need to read from that post onwards. However, I think the play today is clear.

My top 3 scumlist

1: Omni
2: Kirby-bot
3: MarshEE

So in accordance,

Vote: Omni
FOS: Kirby-bot, MarshEE

me over Kirby-bot? really?

so did you purposely only focus on posts or points that could be misconstrued as scummy, nich? besides the metakirby ordeal you failed to highlight anything in the game that i could have done to look pro-town. more importantly you would rather get rid of me over a player who hasn't done nothing but say "i'd be okay with lynching someone i think is leaning town"?

yikes

Overswarm · Jul 16, 2010

I'm all for meta if used properly. Using it as an excuse to skim and ignore arguments is not legit. But anyways, if Omni can't give an example, I'd be comfortable pushing a wagon on him on that basis alone. It's not 100% surefire every time, but it'd be quite a nice tell.

Why this lynch of the Kirby-Bot lynch?

Mainly meta, his delay tactics + extremely scummy reaction to you attacking him, attacking Chaco on the basis of oh-my-gosh-you-suck, and the fact that your case against him is in fact legit.

Do you have a refutation to Omni/MarshEE's responses to that case?

Overswarm · Jul 16, 2010

Ninja'd by Omni.

no. if you assume that i'm lying about losing my entire long-winded response then yes it can be looked at as a delay tactic. do you think i'm lying aka purposely stalling for time, Nich?

I'd believe it. You'd do this even if you were town.

Omni · Jul 16, 2010

also

Nicholas1024 said:
Mainly meta, his delay tactics + extremely scummy reaction to you attacking him, attacking Chaco on the basis of oh-my-gosh-you-suck, and the fact that your case against him is in fact legit.

we heard your meta. meta in null-tell is meta on null-tell.
we understand that you think i'm purposely delaying. ok.
show me the part where i "attacked" Chaco on the OMGUS. then explain why this looks scummy to you.
explain to me how OS's case against me is legit. be sure to read my response post in detail so i don't have to repeat myself.

edit: ninja'd. overswarm, the response was pretyped. there's a difference between stalling for time and ideas and wanting someone who has no connections to start developing connections by having other people comment on your post. i was actually hoping i wouldnt have to say much thinking that everyone would be like *facepalm* but that wasnt in the case in the least bit

Omni · Jul 16, 2010

Overswarm said:
I'd believe it. You'd do this even if you were town.

*headtilt*

what makes you think i would do this if i was town-aligned specifically?

Overswarm · Jul 16, 2010

Omni said:
*headtilt*

what makes you think i would do this if i was town-aligned specifically?

Because you're smart enough to do a scummy action if it meant you wouldn't get lynched, and your alignment is independent of that.

Omni · Jul 16, 2010

wait.. huh?

as town, i'm smart enough... to do something scummy (as town) if it meant i wouldn't get lynched and my alignment is independent of what?

im sorry. i don't understand what you're saying. can you rephrase that?

Overswarm · Jul 16, 2010

Omni said:
wait.. huh?

as town, i'm smart enough... to do something scummy (as town) if it meant i wouldn't get lynched and my alignment is independent of what?

im sorry. i don't understand what you're saying. can you rephrase that?

Hypothetical scenario.

Three guys.

You're a good guy.

One of them is a bad guy.

One guy is going after you.

You know that by doing a specific action, that guy will forget about you or switch targets.

That action is scummy in nature, but will work to the benefit of the good guys.

You do the scummy action, guy changes targets, bad guy ends up dying.

Good guys win.

Not a difficult concept.

Nicholas1024 · Jul 16, 2010

Omni said:
it's a null-tell, Nich. you can't meta nulls. trying to just makes you look silly. considering that i can apply this question as town or mafia and it still have the same effect (exiting RVS stage). i'd also be more reluctant to lean towards the meta side if it happened one more than one occasion as me being scum but to take a single instance and attempt to reapply to this game. just no.

I only had one game's worth of meta on Cello's town playstyle when we went into DBZ. Admittedly, this isn't a perfect example because Cello indy = Cello town (which I didn't know beforehand), but I was extremely sure that Cello wasn't mafia, and that helped lead town (and indies) absolutely crush mafia that game. So yeah, if it's a clear enough case to meta, I'll do it on one game.

do your homework. beats me. i use it a lot in games where i'm unfamiliar with the cast. it benefits me as both town and mafia so i can get a better read on the player's experience. it also helps leave the RVS stage which im not a fan of

If you use it a lot, it won't trouble you to give one example.

did i say chaco/macman were scummy for being inactive into Day 1? if u don't know by now i don't like inactives/inactivity. my threshold of what is early and what isn't seems to be different as well. not sure why you're making a point out of me dissing chaco/macman for inactivity seeing as that tom, frozen, and marshEE placed their votes on them as well. i just voice my dislike

Because, you were the #1 person pushing there. Also, although I also dislike inactives, inactive =/= scum, unless said person has a proven track record of going inactive as scum. Frozenflame lurks all the time regardless of alignment. Cello on the other hand, only lurks as scum.

way to oversimplify my entire post. care to run this by me again?

Okay. "U tunneling? Bad OS." That was basically it.

another null-tell that you're twisting into a scumtell. i explained my reasoning for avoiding immediate confrontation. Overswarm had no connections with anyone seeing as that was his first real post in the game. i thought (and still think) the post was terrible. was very curious to see how other people would view his argument before i posted my direct response to it in order to garner more information.

Look, I go ahead and ask for people to give info on my arguments all the time, but I do it AFTER I've completed arguing, not before. It's hard to give a good opinion on a case if there hasn't been a defense yet. Also, if you get people to say "I like part X of OS's case, but not part Y", that will give YOU information on how best to answer it to look townie. It really benefits town more to give opinions after both sides have argued, but by having them give the opinions before, you give yourself more time and info on how to look townie, benefiting nobody but you.

i dont need help trying to figure out how to debunk a terrible argument.

Yeah, but who said OS's argument is terrible?

no. if you assume that i'm lying about losing my entire long-winded response then yes it can be looked at as a delay tactic. do you think i'm lying aka purposely stalling for time, Nich?

Yes.

exactly. what has Chaco and Vand done period? give me a reason why they shouldn't be lynched? at that point that was my lynch pool tho i obviously had people with more priority over them. and mac hasn't said anything awful coupled with the fact that i've agreed with a majority of his posts. there's nothing off about him.

They've been okay. Chaco agreed with Overswarm's argument against you, that's a connection. And Vand's been giving opinions. I don't see why they should be lynched.

no. overswarm's post sucked. therefore anyone supporting looked suspicious to me. stop skimming; i addressed why i went after said people with specific explanations. don't misinterpret my reasons for targeting players when i've stated why i went after said players unless you want to believe i'm lying completely.

Then why didn't you go after overswarm?

okay. stop skimming and fully read my post.

I intend to, I just need to wait until later when I have more time. Don't worry, I'll give an opinion on it soon enough.

me over Kirby-bot? really?

Yep, but don't worry, I plan to lynch him too.

so did you purposely only focus on posts or points that could be misconstrued as scummy, nich? besides the metakirby ordeal you failed to highlight anything in the game that i could have done to look pro-town. more importantly you would rather get rid of me over a player who hasn't done nothing but say "i'd be okay with lynching someone i think is leaning town"?

yikes

*shrug* I focus mostly on scummy stuff. It doesn't benefit town to let them know that I think player-X is supertown (unless he's under suspicion), that only tells scum who to NK. But anyway, aside from the MK fiasco, most of the stuff you've done is pretty scummy. kirbyoshi is bad too, but I think you're the best target.

Nicholas1024 · Jul 16, 2010

@Omni

Here's the post you made about why you had Chaco on your lynch list. You thought he was after you.

Omni said:
nah, i was butthurt about you agreeing with OS, but also thought u were finding me scummy.

ninja'd son

Overswarm · Jul 16, 2010

Then why didn't you go after overswarm?

Cuz I'm scurry?

RAWR.

Not to butt in on this, but I feel like you're circling Omni and looking for an opening to bite. I get it, he's your top candidate, but it seems to me he is your top candidate solely because you have a hunch, accompanied by the fact you have no other options at the moment.

Omni has already stated he hopes I get Night Killed, AND has stated that he doesn't necessarily think I'm scum, just that my argument was invalid.

In addition to that, I'm like a Night-Kill magnet. The only times I'm not Night Killed early is when I garner a bunch of attention and mafia thinks they can push for my lynch.

Regardless, do you have anything else Nicholas? You've not really brought anything new to the table; your "I dun like these guys" list is almost a mirror of mine. Do you have any other reads? Who do you want to hear from?

Overswarm · Jul 16, 2010

To clarify: we've got almost a week. We can learn a lot more on D1 before settling on a lynch, and I'm not convinced Omni is our play for today.

Nicholas1024 · Jul 16, 2010

I've got some town reads (which I'm going to keep secret ATM), but aside from my top 3 I listed, I don't have much in the way of scum reads. I'd like to hear more from everyone except you and omni, but especially kirb-bot and marshEE. I just haven't seen a whole lot from them.

Omni · Jul 16, 2010

Nicholas1024 said:
I only had one game's worth of meta on Cello's town playstyle when we went into DBZ. Admittedly, this isn't a perfect example because Cello indy = Cello town (which I didn't know beforehand), but I was extremely sure that Cello wasn't mafia, and that helped lead town (and indies) absolutely crush mafia that game. So yeah, if it's a clear enough case to meta, I'll do it on one game.

ok. the point of meta is usually to make it strong/reliable enough to introduce into others games, but if you're willing to take one-time cases and apply it to another game that's you.

Nicholas1024 said:
If you use it a lot, it won't trouble you to give one example.

im not going to scan DG's looking for a null-tell for you, Nich. you're the one presenting a case on me. if you want to meta me then do it fully or not at all even if the basis of your meta is a null-tell. half assing it just makes you look silly and your case flimsy

Nicholas1024 said:
Because, you were the #1 person pushing there. Also, although I also dislike inactives, inactive =/= scum, unless said person has a proven track record of going inactive as scum. Frozenflame lurks all the time regardless of alignment. Cello on the other hand, only lurks as scum.

are you implying that i was trying to get inactives lynched that early in the game, Nich? i've said this in several posts but voicing my dislike on inactives and placing votes on them are attempts to encourage them to start participating. you think being the #1 advocate for stimulating activity is scummy? what are you even trying to say using the Frozen example?

Nicholas1024 said:
Okay. "U tunneling? Bad OS." That was basically it.

helpful

Nicholas1024 said:
Look, I go ahead and ask for people to give info on my arguments all the time, but I do it AFTER I've completed arguing, not before. It's hard to give a good opinion on a case if there hasn't been a defense yet. Also, if you get people to say "I like part X of OS's case, but not part Y", that will give YOU information on how best to answer it to look townie. It really benefits town more to give opinions after both sides have argued, but by having them give the opinions before, you give yourself more time and info on how to look townie, benefiting nobody but you.

okay, so because YOU do it after and i do it before it's somehow scummy of me? if i ask you, "Nich, what do you think of OS's points against me? You think it's solid?" it is not difficult to give your opinion on it regardless if i've made a defense.

you are exactly right that allowing people to jump in and give their opinions can directly influence my answers. however, you're failing to recognize (or read) that my intentions were to stimulate connections between Overswarm and the rest of the cast since NONE have been made at that point whereas i have a buttload of connections with the majority of the cast.

so you are wrong that it benefits only me. it benefits town for the cast to commit to a side or an idea when one is made as strongly as Overswarm's. if scum wants me lynched will they commit to Overswarm's posts and agree? probably, but can they justify their reasoning/logic and does it makes sense? we'll see. the point is that it locks down people's views and forces people to make a stance.

i'm not stalling for the sake of stalling. if i were i would've said nothing.

Nicholas1024 said:
Yeah, but who said OS's argument is terrible?

i did.

Nicholas1024 said:
They've been okay. Chaco agreed with Overswarm's argument against you, that's a connection. And Vand's been giving opinions. I don't see why they should be lynched.

the lack of establishing solid or clear connection is much more troublesome than someone like me who freely establishes connections. you should weary of players who take neutral stances are seem as if they aren't willing to be involved deeply. everyone has been giving opinions, Nicholas. what do you think of the opinions is the main concern

Nicholas1024 said:
Then why didn't you go after overswarm?

why would i? it's not my job to deem someone as scum if they find me as suspicious. hell, i would start deeming players as scum if they never sought to attempt to pressure me or practically auto-cleared me. my analysis of Overswarm was not that he was scum; just a very fixated-focused town trying to make me look stupid. tom, who im holding hands with, verified this thus i'm okay with him not being the play

Nicholas1024 said:
*shrug* I focus mostly on scummy stuff. It doesn't benefit town to let them know that I think player-X is supertown (unless he's under suspicion), that only tells scum who to NK. But anyway, aside from the MK fiasco, most of the stuff you've done is pretty scummy. kirbyoshi is bad too, but I think you're the best target.

you still really haven't made a thorough case as to why you think i'm scummy. you're not really giving me anything to debunk. at least Overswarm put in the time and effort to make a case against me. you're kinda echoing repeated statements that have either been debunked or arent really solid at all.

if you think i'm scum then be more clear and detailed as to why you think so. that way i can actually tell you how you're wrong.

still blows my mind that you're liking a me lynch over kirbybot lynch

Nicholas1024 · Jul 16, 2010

Alright Omni, if you want me to give you things you need to do to clear yourself then...

1) Explain why it's scummier to agree with a bad argument than make a bad argument, particularly considering the person making the argument is the better player.

2) Explain why it's more pro-town to try to get replies and opinions on an argument before you reply than it is to get said opinions after you reply.

3) Go back and find an example of you-town asking who the weakest player is.

4) Give me a top 3 scumlist with plenty of details as to why behind it.

Anyway, at this point I think we'll just end up going back and forth arguing (which is a trap I often fall into), but I'll answer the rest of your stuff later if you wish.

Omni · Jul 16, 2010

we need to go back and forth. you just entered the game.

so yes i want you to answer the rest of my stuff.

also i will not do meta work for you. if you think you have a hunch on a meta then you go to my games and find that my line of questioning early game does not exist. otherwise, you're just shooting in the dark

Omni · Jul 16, 2010

-_- and just looking over those above questions, i've already answered most of them. seriously, dude. stop posting for a while and finish your read up before you start declaring someone scum

Overswarm · Jul 16, 2010

omni said:
ok. the point of meta is usually to make it strong/reliable enough to introduce into others games, but if you're willing to take one-time cases and apply it to another game that's you.

omni said:
you were my scum partner. im more familiar with your style over Zensei/Xonar. didn't you get a good read on what kind of player i am based on that small experience? are you sure you're surprised?

Bad contradiction is bad.

Overswarm · Jul 16, 2010

i'm not stalling for the sake of stalling. if i were i would've said nothing.

That's not your style, that's mine.

Omni · Jul 16, 2010

meta = taking a specific event that occurred in another game and transferring it's play to another game. it broadly means using means outside of the current game and applying it to the game

my play with Vander familiarized myself with his playstyle enough to warrant not asking him those questions in this game. i have a general understanding of his playstyle and how much he has played moreso than Zensei/Xonar.

nicholas is attempting to meta a concept and pin it on me as being scummy
my "meta" was simply not asking Vander the said questions because i got enough from his play to feel comfortable with how he operates. with Zensei and Xonar i had absolutely 0 feel.

do you want to push more on old news, OS?

@ninja'd: @above post: what are you even saying now? are you saying that i wouldn't stall by not saying anything at all because that's what you do?

enough fluff, OS

Overswarm · Jul 16, 2010

Omni said:
meta = taking a specific event that occurred in another game and transferring it's play to another game. it broadly means using means outside of the current game and applying it to the game

my play with Vander familiarized myself with his playstyle enough to warrant not asking him those questions in this game. i have a general understanding of his playstyle and how much he has played moreso than Zensei/Xonar.

nicholas is attempting to meta a concept and pin it on me as being scummy
my "meta" was simply not asking Vander the said questions because i got enough from his play to feel comfortable with how he operates. with Zensei and Xonar i had absolutely 0 feel.

do you want to push more on old news, OS?

The principle is the same: you've taken one instance and used it as a springboard. Nich has done no different.

@ninja'd: @above post: what are you even saying now? are you saying that i wouldn't stall by not saying anything at all because that's what you do?

enough fluff, OS

No, I'm saying I've seen you stall. You stall by posting and redirecting information and showing it as necessary for town. I've never seen you just "not post".

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