Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
I just think its just brawl's animations and stuff throwing people off, most of his hitboxes should be direct rips, but maybe someone from pmbr could clear this up.
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Project M Social Thread
- Thread starter Project M
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Krautrock
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2010
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- 121
Yeah, I'm pretty sure A2ZOMG's statements about Ganon's b-air and u-air are not correct. The data, including hitboxes, was ripped directly, so those moves should be identical. The other complaints are either due to landing detection (d-air) or are just referring to intentional changes (f-tilt, side-b).
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
His statements about B-Air and U-Air were landing detection related.
A2ZOMG really just needs to stop posting here. It's obvious that he doesn't like the direction the game is going and presents tons of theorycraft as evidence as to why characters are all bad in this iteration of the game. Constructive criticism is a good thing, but he takes it to such extreme that it feels like he's actually trying to tell the devs how things should be done. It's just getting ridiculous. No scratch that, it has been ridiculous ever since he continued to argue over Link even after being told time and time again that he was changed according to what Skler had suggested.
A2ZOMG, you clearly have your own ideas of how to balance a smash game. Rather than waste your time here why not go ahead and make a mod yourself? If it turns out to be the most balanced version of Smash ever then the entire community will be all the better for it. As things stand, your opinions vary greatly from the majority of the players of P:M. They are happy with the game and the balance.
Also, I could be wrong but I'm quite certain that Ganon has the same range on his ftilt as he did in Melee. I remember hearing that the animation was kept close to Brawl's to aesthetic purposes, but altered enough to functionally be melee ftilt.
A2ZOMG, you clearly have your own ideas of how to balance a smash game. Rather than waste your time here why not go ahead and make a mod yourself? If it turns out to be the most balanced version of Smash ever then the entire community will be all the better for it. As things stand, your opinions vary greatly from the majority of the players of P:M. They are happy with the game and the balance.
Also, I could be wrong but I'm quite certain that Ganon has the same range on his ftilt as he did in Melee. I remember hearing that the animation was kept close to Brawl's to aesthetic purposes, but altered enough to functionally be melee ftilt.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I have to disagree with you here sffadsad.
His posts on Link were bad, sure, but he's been discussing Ganondorf legitimately.
His posts on Link were bad, sure, but he's been discussing Ganondorf legitimately.
How has it been legitimate? From what I've seen he's complained about landing detection, something that currently CANNOT be changed, spread what I'm pretty sure is misinformation about his hitboxes, and is complaining that you have to read your opponents in order to make flame choke useful.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
He isn't "complaining" about Landing Detection, he is saying that it is a reason Ganondorf is worse.
We don't know if it's misinformation yet, wait for a dev to reply. Given the animation, it's not a completely far-out claim either.
Finally, he wasn't "complaining" that you have to read the opponent to make Flame Choke useful, he was saying that it's a down-side compared to his Melee side-b.
We don't know if it's misinformation yet, wait for a dev to reply. Given the animation, it's not a completely far-out claim either.
Finally, he wasn't "complaining" that you have to read the opponent to make Flame Choke useful, he was saying that it's a down-side compared to his Melee side-b.
Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
He isn't making a big fuss about it, he is just stating his opinion on the matter, and the people that don't agree with him are debating with him.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Exactly Pickle, too much unwarranted hate in this thread.
But isn't that what complaining is? Saying that something is worse because of another thing?
The thing is that everyone is aware that landing detection screws things up, yet he enters the thread and criticizes the current state of Ganon because his "hitboxes" aren't are convenient.
He also shoots down other people's arguments over move usage and strategy by constantly coming up with scenarios in which the enemy has just happened to predict correctly. If Ganon does X then opponent can do Y thus making him/move change not very good. This is straight theorycraft. The difference between bringing up these situations on a forum and the actual application is huge. Fighters are all about prediction and capitalizing on mistakes. True that Ganon doesn't have an answer for every situation and possibility, but no character does. Yes some of Ganon's answers to certain situations and possibilities can be countered themselves, but so can other characters'.
From what I've read of his posts here, A2ZOMG seems intent on emphasizing only the flaws of P:M characters and making them sound much worse than they actually are.
Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
Yeah I swear, people need to start chillaxin in this thread.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
com·plain (km-pln)
intr.v. com·plained, com·plain·ing, com·plains
1. To express feelings of pain, dissatisfaction, or resentment.
So, no, complaining isn't simply pointing out a flaw.
intr.v. com·plained, com·plain·ing, com·plains
1. To express feelings of pain, dissatisfaction, or resentment.
So, no, complaining isn't simply pointing out a flaw.
He is expressing his dissatisfaction of certain changes which be believes makes things worse.
I'm not a rabid fanboy of the mod. In fact I have yet to even play the demo. It just seems to me that A2ZOMG only comes into this thread when he wants to naysay certain aspects of the mod and expects everyone else to see his point rather than keeping an open mind.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
EDIT: Nevermind, you were right 
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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You misunderstand me. I fully support this hack.
I did the exact same **** to BBrawl, the hack that I PERSONALLY prefer over Project M. I was HARD on them. I pointed out EVERYTHING I absolutely did not like about what they were doing and I never sugarcoated my criticisms. Why? Because I knew they could do better, and I was going to make sure that it was clear to them that they could ****ing do better. Hell I also was much the same towards Brawl minus here and there, another hack that was of interest to me. If I think something is not as good as it should be, I'm going to criticize it.
Project M is only getting the same treatment from me. I'm going to err on the side of criticism because it's far more productive than praising, because generally speaking the reasons for praise are obvious to everyone.
And unless I misunderstood, Project M was aiming to be competitively balanced. And while they do MANY things right, there are many things that are also clearly not right.
Ganondorf I feel is definitely not in a position to go up against his previously worst matchups. Ganon in general just wants you to be slower and worse at spacing than him, and he wants you to be unable to kill or gimp him. The transition from Melee to Project M however is not good for Ganon's spacing due to landing detection issues and the fact a number of his Brawl animations are legitimately inferior to his Melee animations. He does have a slightly better recovery, but his ledge game was nerfed, so I dunno.
Her offensive game is actually by far better, given Din's Fire is GOOD for locking down defenses. COMPLETE utter **** for defense. No character in the game cares one bit if you simply chuck Din's Fire at them. That's not going to force them to approach badly. They have to actually care if you grab them while they're thinking about how to not get exploded upon.
Dhalsim from Street Fighter is a good defensive character. Granted, he sucks at dealing with pressure, but this balances him. He's not only exceptional at stopping approaches, he's even better at forcing bad approaches.
The most defensive part about Zelda is the fact she survives forever. That's really it.
I did the exact same **** to BBrawl, the hack that I PERSONALLY prefer over Project M. I was HARD on them. I pointed out EVERYTHING I absolutely did not like about what they were doing and I never sugarcoated my criticisms. Why? Because I knew they could do better, and I was going to make sure that it was clear to them that they could ****ing do better. Hell I also was much the same towards Brawl minus here and there, another hack that was of interest to me. If I think something is not as good as it should be, I'm going to criticize it.
Project M is only getting the same treatment from me. I'm going to err on the side of criticism because it's far more productive than praising, because generally speaking the reasons for praise are obvious to everyone.
And unless I misunderstood, Project M was aiming to be competitively balanced. And while they do MANY things right, there are many things that are also clearly not right.
Ganondorf I feel is definitely not in a position to go up against his previously worst matchups. Ganon in general just wants you to be slower and worse at spacing than him, and he wants you to be unable to kill or gimp him. The transition from Melee to Project M however is not good for Ganon's spacing due to landing detection issues and the fact a number of his Brawl animations are legitimately inferior to his Melee animations. He does have a slightly better recovery, but his ledge game was nerfed, so I dunno.
So says the Project M Dojo. Her defensive game is absolute trash though. She can't force bad approaches and she SUCKS at dealing with pressure.
Her offensive game is actually by far better, given Din's Fire is GOOD for locking down defenses. COMPLETE utter **** for defense. No character in the game cares one bit if you simply chuck Din's Fire at them. That's not going to force them to approach badly. They have to actually care if you grab them while they're thinking about how to not get exploded upon.
Dhalsim from Street Fighter is a good defensive character. Granted, he sucks at dealing with pressure, but this balances him. He's not only exceptional at stopping approaches, he's even better at forcing bad approaches.
The most defensive part about Zelda is the fact she survives forever. That's really it.
Lolo_knight
Smash Apprentice
Timer+Lucas side b = win try it u know u got it when ur face goes =0 AWESOME!
Mario B + tmer = same awesomeness =D
Mario B + tmer = same awesomeness =D
cooler1339
Smash Apprentice
I have to agree that Zelda doesn't feel like a defensive character, shes just slow. Her attacks seem to support more of an offensive style as he said.
FALCON KICK is hella good now too.
Also Ganon Wiztruck is awesome in all shapes. Comboing off the quake yeayuhz.
"oh hey look im rising hahahahaha rising zelda weeee those jumps sure get me up theere
PSYCH
NOW IM FALLING WITH INVINCIBILITY FOLLOWED BY HUGE HITBOXES THAT PULL YOU IN, RACK DAMAGE, AND REFLECT PROJECTILES.
IT'S LIKE A PREEMPTIVE GET OUT OF BULL**** FREE CARD
DID I MENTION I CAN USE THIS WHENEVER I WANT, AKA WHENEVER I FEEL LIKE I MIGHT BE GETTING ***** IN THE NEXT 2 SECONDS!?"
****ing nayru's love augh
PSYCH
NOW IM FALLING WITH INVINCIBILITY FOLLOWED BY HUGE HITBOXES THAT PULL YOU IN, RACK DAMAGE, AND REFLECT PROJECTILES.
IT'S LIKE A PREEMPTIVE GET OUT OF BULL**** FREE CARD
DID I MENTION I CAN USE THIS WHENEVER I WANT, AKA WHENEVER I FEEL LIKE I MIGHT BE GETTING ***** IN THE NEXT 2 SECONDS!?"
****ing nayru's love augh
Spoon~
Smash Ace
Maybe its just you that cant force a bad approach and sucks at dealing with pressure. o.O
JCaesar
Smash Hero
On Ganon, Wiztruck alone balances the matchup vs spacies imo. It's not hard to land (covers over half the options from a side-B, including not teching) and kills spacies at like 50 even with godlike DI.
IASA on Naryu's is sickeningly good for her, bad for opponents who aren't sonic or falcon.
I must agree with JCaesar. The side b, being able to grab shielding opponents and able to punish failed tech rolls is great. Also, even if you roll to the side, you can pressure them after. I find myself using Flame choke more often than the Melee side B.
Revven
FrankerZ
Don't delve back into Ganondorf, I'm only clearing **** up since on one else did.
Magus went and fixed up Ganondorf's Ftilt before the release of the demo, this includes speeding up the animation, changing the hitboxes to better match Melee, AND giving it the angle that Brawl's Ftilt has but keeping Melee's KB stats. All of Ftilt (including the Up angled and Down angled ones) are a combination of Melee and Brawl, animation + KB/angle from Melee on the angled ones + KB from Melee and angle from Brawl for normal Ftilt. If you cannot see why the move is as good as Melee's Ftilt with a 25º angle and Melee's KB, then I don't know what to say.
As for everything else, Ganondorf's Fair is actually BIGGER than it is in Melee (at least that's what I was told awhile ago, not sure if that had been changed before the demo released). His Bair matches Melee's everything and same with his Uair. The main thing that hinders Ganondorf is something we can't change right now so I'm sorry that you're annoyed about it and feel the need to complain even though we're already fully aware of what Ganondorf has trouble with.
Landing detection is your mortal enemy A2ZOMG, as it is for us. We're sorry.
Let me make something really clear here: When we say everyone's hitboxes match Melee, they match Melee there's no ifs, ands, or buts unless the animation itself is hindering that experience for you (which is usually aesthetic) or the animation completely changes how the hitboxes work (like Marth's moves as we said did need animation changes to match his hitboxes, and not even his are completely accurate yet).
Magus went and fixed up Ganondorf's Ftilt before the release of the demo, this includes speeding up the animation, changing the hitboxes to better match Melee, AND giving it the angle that Brawl's Ftilt has but keeping Melee's KB stats. All of Ftilt (including the Up angled and Down angled ones) are a combination of Melee and Brawl, animation + KB/angle from Melee on the angled ones + KB from Melee and angle from Brawl for normal Ftilt. If you cannot see why the move is as good as Melee's Ftilt with a 25º angle and Melee's KB, then I don't know what to say.
As for everything else, Ganondorf's Fair is actually BIGGER than it is in Melee (at least that's what I was told awhile ago, not sure if that had been changed before the demo released). His Bair matches Melee's everything and same with his Uair. The main thing that hinders Ganondorf is something we can't change right now so I'm sorry that you're annoyed about it and feel the need to complain even though we're already fully aware of what Ganondorf has trouble with.
Landing detection is your mortal enemy A2ZOMG, as it is for us. We're sorry.
Let me make something really clear here: When we say everyone's hitboxes match Melee, they match Melee there's no ifs, ands, or buts unless the animation itself is hindering that experience for you (which is usually aesthetic) or the animation completely changes how the hitboxes work (like Marth's moves as we said did need animation changes to match his hitboxes, and not even his are completely accurate yet).
Master WGS
Smash Lord
At this point I'd almost argue G&W or Puff as worst characters in the demo. Not saying they're awful, just if I had to pick a bottom, it'd probably be them.
G&W still feels... incomplete to me. I feel like most of his moves aren't as reliable as everyone else's... Like, I know everyone has stuff to shut down other characters' things, but I feel like EVERYONE has good options against G&W at this point. Idunno, I can't really describe it, as I don't really play him. It's just one of my friends does, and though I honestly believe he's better at the game than me, his choice in character makes him lose. Maybe he still hasn't totally figured out the transition from Melee to P:M, but I feel like, if G&W is suddenly so much better, there should be results on his end to prove it.
Puff I've just never liked, so I'm obviously biased.
G&W still feels... incomplete to me. I feel like most of his moves aren't as reliable as everyone else's... Like, I know everyone has stuff to shut down other characters' things, but I feel like EVERYONE has good options against G&W at this point. Idunno, I can't really describe it, as I don't really play him. It's just one of my friends does, and though I honestly believe he's better at the game than me, his choice in character makes him lose. Maybe he still hasn't totally figured out the transition from Melee to P:M, but I feel like, if G&W is suddenly so much better, there should be results on his end to prove it.
Puff I've just never liked, so I'm obviously biased.
CTL17
Smash Lord
Due to character size changes, I feel Puff can't space as well with her (comparatively) shorter range.
Also, is there any way you can make things not stop all momentum? Teching and L-Canceling come to mind.
Also, is there any way you can make things not stop all momentum? Teching and L-Canceling come to mind.
Supreme Dirt
King of the Railway
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2009
- Messages
- 7,336
Puff is NOT bad in the demo.
You're doing Jiggs wrong.
Or you're playing her like Brawl Jiggs.
She can kill every character with rest between 10%-20%.
She has guaranteed set-ups into this incredibly powerful move.
Stop trying to SH FAir, it DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.
Play better.
You're doing Jiggs wrong.
Or you're playing her like Brawl Jiggs.
She can kill every character with rest between 10%-20%.
She has guaranteed set-ups into this incredibly powerful move.
Stop trying to SH FAir, it DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.
Play better.
slimpyman
Smash Journeyman
I really cant make tech chasing a possibilty with g&w, i think hes still a good guy, but he and jiggly, imo, definitely need something.... jiggs air momentum doesnt seem to be as fast, as well as the way she changes momentum in the air. g&w definitely is nice to just l-cancel the crap out of f-airs, but it cant take care of business...
btw, spoon(couple posts above) took his copy of project m to purduecal, and seriously,i think it got positive attention... one dude like picked it up with falcon (said he had played melee) and he was tech chasing like crazy!!! hahaha he looked like he knew what he was doing, l cancelling and all! another dude picked it up with lucas, and was like Dayummm, this game is cold! haha one fat dude picked up jiggly and started to insta-john how he couldnt snap to the ledge from 20 feet away lol
so yeah, i was happy a bunch of newcomers got to play and gave it a thumbs up... not bad for a good 5 hour smash singles fest!
btw, spoon(couple posts above) took his copy of project m to purduecal, and seriously,i think it got positive attention... one dude like picked it up with falcon (said he had played melee) and he was tech chasing like crazy!!! hahaha he looked like he knew what he was doing, l cancelling and all! another dude picked it up with lucas, and was like Dayummm, this game is cold! haha one fat dude picked up jiggly and started to insta-john how he couldnt snap to the ledge from 20 feet away lol
so yeah, i was happy a bunch of newcomers got to play and gave it a thumbs up... not bad for a good 5 hour smash singles fest!
Supreme Dirt
King of the Railway
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2009
- Messages
- 7,336
Jiggs is the same as Melee afaik. Same momentum, same everything.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
If you think you can't catch people on dthrow tech chases as GnW, wavedash after. His run is too slow to get it.
Bacon on sheild is so good to get grabs, man.
Bacon on sheild is so good to get grabs, man.
Rion
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2008
- Messages
- 396
I am a little confused about how Zelda is good at surviving hits... as she's actually pretty light and can get KO'd pretty early from the top. Her floaty-ness (a mixed blessing) also makes this weakness a bit more apparent:
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6a23ED_-dc&t=2m6s
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6a23ED_-dc&t=2m26s
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ4Vfw9GetQ&t=2m2s
Okay, that last one was for fun.
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6a23ED_-dc&t=2m6s
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6a23ED_-dc&t=2m26s
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ4Vfw9GetQ&t=2m2s
Okay, that last one was for fun.
Revven
FrankerZ
How many times does the dev team have to repeat itself?
Attributes for Melee veterans match. This includes aerial mobility and other physics related attributes. Ripped directly from Melee. Anything that "feels" off that deals with landing in any way is landing detection.
leelue
Smash Lord
I feel like the OP should say in plain English that the only thing that is toned down on melee vets is Sheiks down throw, and everything else is toned up or the same.
Sing is getting toned back down (sadly. I'm responding to somebody's comment)
Sigh
I want to pat the dev team on the back out of pity.
I was not a big brawl player. What exactly is brawl DI?
Sing is getting toned back down (sadly. I'm responding to somebody's comment)
Sigh
I want to pat the dev team on the back out of pity.
I was not a big brawl player. What exactly is brawl DI?
it's like melee di, only stronger. also weird things like reading diagonol up/right as full right full up di at the same time. but mostly, it's more potent (something like... 8% more?) so good di is even better, while bad di is even worse.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
In Brawl, you can DI certain attacks with diagonal inputs and alter your trajectory up to 24 degrees. For other normal attacks, only 18. In Melee, you can DI to alter all attacks 18 degrees.
Also in Brawl, you cannot DI attacks that do not put you into tumble.
Also in Brawl, you cannot DI attacks that do not put you into tumble.
Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
Yeah that is what I thought when that whole ganon debate was going on, but I think people are just getting thrown off by brawl's graphics and stuff, either that or they just can't accept that its the same lol. Thanks for clearing that up btw.
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