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the TKD thread

Kuares

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I also haven't been able to do it without the pummel and if Yui's doing it that way, it must be right.

Doing it in 1/4 speed, tells me the same thing. The initial pummel is what does it.
 

TKD

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No, Light; no. If you grab MK out of the air, you have to pummel him immediately. I tested it like Kuares did: with no pummels. The result was that MK's feet NEVER dangled. No air break.

Typical random notes:
I change my mind about the bair approach on Snake. Right now I like playing keep-away, dash approaches if there's space, lots of baiting, and hardcore juggling. I'm not as afraid to grab him as before, as I played Snake for a bit and his slower 8-frame grab is really a bit of a problem for him.

Tippered full hop uair is excellent (if not tippered, his bair counters it and it'll strike grenades). It's great because it either auto-cancels onto platforms, or you're fast enough to fast-fall and reach him with another move if he air-dodges through. A common scenario is Snake air-dodging my uair, and then I fast-fall nair to dash usmash him, and continue my momentum going. Bair is great for edge-guarding. It counters Snake's nair, hits him out of cipher, and you can auto-cancel it to get him with something else if it misses. It's sort of a horizontal uair.

We can dash usmash his ftilt2, dtilt, and utilt from block; in case you forgot.
 

Lightning93

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Well if it's so certain then I'm not going to argue against it. I'm just really doubting my own memory because I specifically remember landing the air release to upsmash without pummeling once...

Anyways, if it has been tested otherwise I won't object.
 

crifer

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Another Note: I thought we could shine Snake if he hits us with his nair...
But yesterday I mashed downB, couldn´t get the shine out and died at 70 % because of the down input and following DI. Is there any reason (percentage, hitbox stuff etc) why it didn´t work or did I mess up?
 

C.R.Z

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Another Note: I thought we could shine Snake if he hits us with his nair...
But yesterday I mashed downB, couldn´t get the shine out and died at 70 % because of the down input and following DI. Is there any reason (percentage, hitbox stuff etc) why it didn´t work or did I mess up?
probably depends where on the hit box you were hit or you may have to SDI abit into him, or even SDI up abit first. im not sure though, i normally just SDI into him and punish.
 

TKD

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@crifer: The shine wasn't buffered or you had too much percentage. I think you should just aggressively QCDI into him, because I'm not sure a shine would reach Snake. I also don't know the percentage at which you receive too much hit-stun to have a free frame.
@light: Your opponent inputed upwards DI or a jump command. To force air breaks out of air grab, you need the pummel. If you want to check if it's forced or not, look at Meta Knight's legs.

Who here practices MK dittos? If both players are at high level, the result seems pretty random. It looks like a carefree kind of fun.
 

Lightning93

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@light: Your opponent inputed upwards DI or a jump command. To force air breaks out of air grab, you need the pummel. If you want to check if it's forced or not, look at Meta Knight's legs.
Well I reasoned that might be the case, but I doubted it because while doing so I told my opponent not to press anything as a test. He must have gone ahead and inputted something nonetheless. Anyways, what you all are saying makes sense. I've been caught under a weird conditioning due to false experiences.
Who here practices MK dittos? If both players are at high level, the result seems pretty random. It looks like a carefree kind of fun.
Lol what are you implying ;)?
 

Lightning93

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Might be a bit a of a stretch seeing as this thread is located in the Fox boards, but it is your thread after all.

Was N-air ever extensively elaborated in this thread? I remember Zhamy had some great theories about its use as an equivalent to a diving kick in Street Fighter. I think it's a very versatile move.
 

TKD

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Nair is a good landing option. And you can full hop uair and fast-fall nair the opponent if they air-dodged through.

Nair to dash attack is pretty much a staple. Nair to usmash can work later. At beginning percents it's nair to grab. At high percentage, weak nair to dash usmash works. You can space nair so they whiff a shield grab and dash usmash them on reaction. If you read a shield grab whiff, you can fsmash instead I guess.

You can cross up with nair too. It's pretty useful. Cross-up nair to grab works well. Cross-up nair to block too. Cross-up nair to away dash is good if you're scared. Nair is good as an anti-aerial. It's low damage but easy to hit with, given Fox's big jumps.

nairnairnairnairnair
 

Lightning93

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Love it.

I've also noticed that sometimes the conventional "bait and punish, laser and mobile" playstyle can be compromised for a slower paced Fox. Toronto Joe and Samboner come to mind for me. There are certain times where they sort of pause the laser pressure, walk around, yet still get the reads in using some quick, unconventional set-ups such as backwards n-air or fast-falled up-air. It may be a less efficient cause, but I feel if all of us were to incorporate some pace-changing in our games, the opponent may have even a harder time keeping up.

A big reason a song has power is the change of tempo and dynamics. Not that smash bros is a musical in of itself. But who knows?

Any thoughts?
 

TKD

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Dash approach is only good if there's enough space anyway. You can counter whiffs or interrupt from dash approach distance too. Slowing down is good to observe different gaps from the opponent. If you keep approaching or whatever, you're only seeing one side of him.
 

crifer

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I just thought about sh shine to nair and it being safe against falco´s shieldgrab, but according to the frame data it´s not... :(
 

TKD

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of course it's not. nair has 8 landing lag.

falco. details (cg, laser game):
his fresh dthrow has no follow-up from 28%. jab to grab can be stopped with shine. jab, away roll will work too...these are emergency exits. SDIing his spike from cg is BASIC. just QCDI upwards and your air-jump will reach the ledge. watch out from the ledge: falco can gimp with any move of choice. though your illusion can go through falco by spacing for invincible frames, from this distance, his downb will reach fox and can also gimp him. ledge jump is fox's best option from the ledge. ledge jump to air-jump fair is good.
autocancel bair is safe on block but takes awhile to set up. you can't really approach falco when you're at cg %. he has spot-dodge, grab, jab, nair to grab, dash attack to grab (yes you read correctly)....
if there are platforms, they can be used to drop + blaster and to have mix-up vs falco's grabbing ability. platform drop with air-dodge through falco will evade his sh nair and allow for utilt to grab or utilt to utilt depending on his %. platform drop, autocancel bair will probably be fine too.

you can only short hop blaster falco if your opponent lets you. if he blasters high, there's not much you can do, but if he short hop lasers x2 and the second one is lower, it's a good shine. if it'd go above his head upon shine, it's not a good reflection. if he short hop lasers from too close, you can sh fair, dash attack or dash usmash him. if falco uses downb and you weren't busy, he's easy to dash usmash or dash shield-grab from skid.

once you're at 28% or have already been chain-grabbed, you're free to use all of your options (hopefully he has more damage than you by then).

neutrality:
so you reached 28% or fell into falco's cg. an important part of this match-up is committing. pretty BIG options of fox's are walk block and walk shield-grab. important options to wait for while blocking are his jab and his spot-dodge.
learn to react to his spot-dodge by timing your grab so it'll be active during the 30th of a second that falco is vulnerable after spot-dodging.
nair stays out long enough to counter spot-dodges easily, by the way.
also, learn to react to his jabs: you have a free usmash or shieldgrab if falco executes jab2 on your shield, since he doesn't have time to act between that and rapids or jab cancel.
if you predict only a jab1 (without the opponent going into jab2), you can shieldgrab or usmash immediately upon being hit by it. i don't think you NEED to commit, but i've been read for my away roll with jab1 into dash and then been dash attacked/dash usmashed. rolling into falco when you don't want to commit will most likely work.

useful data for fox's shieldgrab and usmash: grab comes out in 6 frames and reaches slightly farther away than usmash. usmash comes out in 8 frames. the extra couple frames and lack of grab armor make it a bit less accurate.

some more on shieldwork. falco's sweet-spot fsmash is easy to dash usmash (or for you to grab him if he's at too low % for usmash). sour-spot fsmash (the wind from farther away) is not...maybe you can reach him with a dash attack, but i wouldn't know right now. i'd rather not act.
falco's dash attack is very difficult to shield-grab or usmash immediately from block (usmash will most likely sour-spot as falco goes through fox). the lower half of his body is INVINCIBLE during this, as he's supposedly jumping. this attack does have a lot of cool-down though, so unblock dsmash, or unblock, turn around grab/usmash will work just fine (besides the fact that usmash will, thankfully, sour-spot if you mess up and execute it...which sometimes sets falco up for edgeguarding).
falco's usmash and dsmash have a ton of cool-down. you -should- unblock and usmash him after blocking them. if you take too long to react, don't try it though: it's fine, and it's better to miss the punishment and abstain from action, than to be power-blocked or spot-dodged (same goes for his fsmash).
falco's aerials are easy to shield-grab or utilt from block after being power-blocked (they're also easy to power-block as falco can't mix-up his aerial's timing much). if you regular block and falco drifts away and the punishment isn't possible (or you think it isn't), it's fine to abstain from doing something dumb. upon whiff, falco's aerials are also easy to dash attack (he has to miss by an inch though). nair is the toughest to dash attack because of its low cool-down but still possible.

defense:
you don't need to land! you have fox's great downb for a reason. if the opponent charges a smash below you, you can shine until he releases and fast-fall nair/dair him (nair is easier to land because of its range). if you don't think you'll reach him in time, you can drift away or jump away. i like turning around during the shine and landing a bair.
stay away from falco's bair, and remember that your opponent probably won't fair you (if he does and you react, try to air-dodge/shine him). it's not very dangerous anyway. staying away from falco's bair can result in you hanging at the ledge, from where you need to be careful. reading it and fast-fall air-dodging will allow punishment/momentum.
when recovering, watch the opponent's laser game. you don't want your air-jump fair cut short. you don't want to air-dodge them either. just shine them or get hit (it's much less of a big deal than being hit out of your air-jump).
when surviving, shield-work is very, very good. the opponent will usually throw you (unless you grab him first) and try to KO you off of the momentum, since you should be very difficult to hit with cheap KO shots. you need to stay safe from uair, bair, and his smash attacks. uair/bair are meant to hit in the air; usmash is meant to hit you on the ground or counter a falling aerial of yours. defensive positioning with shine and drifting will work OK.

offense:
lol this is pretty fun. air-dodge can be dsmashed or dash attacked, even dash usmashed or faired if it's performed in the air without fast-fall and will end high (which your opponent shouldn't do, but there are many possible of both noobs and mistakes out there).
treat his landing aerials well. power-block and shield-grab, unblock utilt or usmash from block is good. if you predict him whiffing a bair (hehehe...), that's his (useful) aerial with the most cooldown, so you can wait for the whiff and dash usmash him (this even works if he doesn't land with it since it has a lot of cool-down).

note on dashes: dashing to the side you're facing is immediate. dashing towards your back takes much longer: it makes reaction dash attacks a bit more difficult, and dash usmashing on reaction almost impossible. if you input dash backwards and c-stick down too quickly by the way, you'll execute a turn-around dsmash (during the meddlesome frames that fox hasn't started dashing).

continuing offense:
if you predict a phantasm through you, you can face your back to him and time an usmash. this makes for a good KO. if this usmash can KO the opponent already, usmash will kill him for using phantasm into you, while a ledgehog will kill him for phantasming to the ledge. it's a coin flip.
otherwise, utilt while facing him is an EXCELLENT move vs phantasm if you have the mind to react to it (you need some weird conditioning that i've forgotten), if that's too difficult, dash attack stays out longer, and away walk into block can allow you to punish it from block. dair and nair take a ****load of time to set up and are probably very inaccurate, but they **** the phantasm. dair to jab (so he pops up and falls back down to suffer landing lag) to a smash attack is golden.
if there's enough time, you can dash off-stage, fast-fall, and air-jump dair falco's phantasm. this WILL kill him. i don't know the timing/spacing for it so he doesn't spike you (which would kill you LOL), but i've done it, and whoever practices it will be very, very dangerous for falco players.
you should shine the firebird when falco needs it, and you should air-jump and shine by the ledge to make time before hanging on it. invincible frames from the ledge help a lot. firebird's trajectory also helps: you can wait for him to shoot into you and hit him without recoil thanks to shine's 3 invincible start-up frames.
watch out for falco's dair when he's on defense! it's best to bait it and hit him later, since fox's aerials are ineffective on countering that.

i couldn't sleep without typing this up because i watched cloud vs kasper.

expect full write-ups like this once in awhile. i do full write-ups from memory only so i can refresh my knowledge on match-ups. it makes it less likely for me to forget details. i also hope it helps, of course.
 

C.R.Z

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yeah lol i play silly when im nervous and dont know the match up well... falco use to be one of my worst MU's so i always did dumb things against him :/ now my only issue is marth. but thanks for the write up, this will help strengthen my falco MU for sure.
 

crifer

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But I think CRZ pretty much played better from game to game ... there were some really nice combos in that set :-)
But I need to work on the falcu MU as well :-(
 

TKD

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You can shieldgrab marth's fair, it has 8 landing frames. You also walk better, so your walk grab will likely beat out his. If you get close enough to his landings to shield-grab his fair, he gets cornered. He juggles better than MK, that's pretty dangerous.

Dash attack interrupts marth's dash approaches pretty easily. Short-hop nair into marth counters his DB. If he whiffs sh fair in front of you, you have time to dash attack him. If he's at the ledge, he's cornered too. His ledge options are pretty bad, for almost all of them you can wait outside his range and dash attack him. If he ledge jumps, he's above you. Pretty bad position for him.

Don't let match cg you LOL. you can't SDI tippers.

Like vs MK, i think you have to be fast and pressure him, instead of having a passive role. Except marth will REALLY **** you for trying to stay away. his personal space is big, and he carries it with him...into you.
 

M@v

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I got the timing down on the grab and pummel, but what else can we do out of the grab release? The only other ones I've found are dash attack, illusion(lol), and regrab, but it can't get there fast enough to catch him in the air again. But you can do pummel till release->repummel then throw. At low-mid percents, I think that would be the best combo.


EDIT: Can someone with really good tech skill try grab-release->Boost pivot grab->re-grab? I'm pretty sure I'm buffering it right and its impossible, but I don't want to miss a potential infinite here O_O
 

crifer

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of course it's not. nair has 8 landing lag.
I actually meant that he can not grab us between the shine and nair.

It´s like: Fox sh shine against Falco´s shield -> falco tries to shieldgrab but gets interrupted of fox nair -> follow-up like dash attack.

About Marth: I think you mean shieldgrabing his ending lag, right? If marth´s fair fox shield with good spacing, fox should not be able to punish it, or?
 

Conviction

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Crifer been there done that 2 years ago (I think its been 2 years at least) look up the thread, delux sunshine combo

:phone:

You can dash attack or usmash the landing because of fairs landing and end lag, also the project arwing thread should answer your marth questions.
 

B.A.M.

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Nvm its the same way M2K does it hahah. That ******* killed my Sonic with that crap. It happens to every character I believe
 

MK26

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wow, it actually works...

grab him with the top of your grab box and immediately pummel once

youll know its working if you see his feet dangling through the ground rather than his toes resting on it

if you dont have a training buddy to test with go into training mode and set the cpu to jump

===

in urelated news, fox has the nastiest looking naner lock on diddy ever...with your banana in hand, footstool diddy and throw the banana downward to trip him; when it bounces off his head bair to catch the naner, if you do it right the bair's hitbox should go just over his head and you should autocancel the landing and land right in front of diddy, ready to repeat

sorry if its already known, but this looks really really awesome lol
 

MK26

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i missed the last page <_< >_>

to make myself less useless: @mav, perfectly buffered boost pivot grab does not reach far enough to regrab mk

HOWEVER

what does work is a perfectly buffered skid cancel grab

which means that you can grab mk on one side of the stage and drag him completely across it so he has nowhere to di to when you grab release usmash him when his back is facing the edge

EDIT: i just looked at the frame data and it appears to check out

you have a +20 frame advantage on air release
it takes your initial dash 10 frames to transition into a run
afaik you need to spend 1 frame in run before you can skid, 1 frame in skid before you can shield, and 1 frame in shield before you can grab
grab comes out in 6 frames

so if my math is right a regrab is guaranteed
 

C.R.Z

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Yeah I know. I was looking for alternate followups since most air releases in the game have multiple responses.

:phone:
in general usmash is the best option.if you can regrab then that will be usful when the opponent is under 20 %, otherwise usmash is the best. i dont think its possible to boost pivot him.
 

M@v

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The regrab works, and I think its the best option at mid percents when he's not at kill range because your pummels plus throw will outdamage a fresh upsmash.
Btw it goes grab->pummel->air release->running regrab->pummel and throw. You can't make it fast enough to re air release.

:phone:
 

C.R.Z

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i guess its useful if your in desperate need for getting rid of decay but i still think usmash is a better option in general.

what it is good for is gaining space, since it moves mk quite far.
 

MK26

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The regrab works, and I think its the best option at mid percents when he's not at kill range because your pummels plus throw will outdamage a fresh upsmash.
Btw it goes grab->pummel->air release->running regrab->pummel and throw. You can't make it fast enough to re air release.
I just re air released...i think im pretty sure you need to be frame-perfect to do so

EDIT: yeah, im 100% sure its possible to re air release

dunno how feasable it is to do at full speed, but it certainly is possible
 

M@v

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The problem is its near impossible to predict when they are going to release, so its near impossible to buffer a regrab to catch them in time.

:phone:
 

M@v

Subarashii!
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No you can react fast enough to upsmash etc. Its buffering it that's the issue. Basically you need to be inputting it right before the release/instantly as your letting go. Its different timing for every %. I need to practice it more though.
 

TKD

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"Near impossible" LOL!! The dash is buffered, dude.
You -can- air release to skid grab and force an air release, and it's easy if you're already good at skid grabbing (it's a new technique for some of us, coughcough). Why are you guys making hilarious discoveries?

"The top of your grab box"? Height doesn't matter as long as you grabbed MK from the air and pummeled soon enough.
Oh yeah; if you want to practice skid grabbing and this trick, set a CPU MK to "Jump" in FD.

P.S.: falco is awesome and can't do this. wolf can. the rest of the cast aren't spacies.
 

M@v

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well sorry for my slow hands.

EDIT: What I meant was can we buffer out of the grab release animation we do for the 30 frames?
 
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