the TKD thread

[RPK]

Maybe its our jab that beats our side b...lol, well, then how about nair to punish? OR better yet...We boost pivot grab him out of it, and then because we grabbed him out of the air, hes forced to air release. Also because we boost pivot grabbed, we have room to air release him. So with that, we can grab release Upsmash Falco :V

 

[crifer]

Maybe its our jab that beats our side b...lol, well, then how about nair to punish? OR better yet...We boost pivot grab him out of it, and then because we grabbed him out of the air, hes forced to air release. Also because we boost pivot grabbed, we have room to air release him. So with that, we can grab release Upsmash Falco :V

nair...I´m not sure but hard hit nair could work.
we can boost pivot, pivot and normal grab him out of sideB, but the timing is really hard.
grab release usmash shoould never ever work against falco , sadly :O

 

[RPK]

Okay, just work with me here...We grabbed him out of the air, and thus he HAS to air release. And because we grabbed him out of illusion he has 30 frames of landing lag when he touches the ground next time which will be when he gets air released. thus we can grab release upsmash him :3

 

[Chef Fox]

What exactly is so hopeless about the Wario matchup? I'm not disagreeing or anything, I've just never played a Wario at all. I'm not even sure Wario is a playable character in New England Brawl...

 

[Omni]

Fox vs. Lucario/Diddy details goooooo!

 

[TKD]

a lot of chars aren't easy when playing below mid level.
anyway yeah; jab DOESN'T WORK. i'd stand anywhere phantasm can reach me of course. if he cancels and lands in front of me i'll dsmash.
finally, nair takes N I N E frames. NINE. 9. nueveeeeee...it's impossible to react to Phantasm with a 9-frame move: not only that, but you'd have to put yourself in the air beforehand (so add 10 frames if you will) which will be quite noticeable, and the chance for your hitbox to be out during a hop is a window.

Okay, just work with me here...We grabbed him out of the air, and thus he HAS to air release. And because we grabbed him out of illusion he has 30 frames of landing lag when he touches the ground next time which will be when he gets air released. thus we can grab release upsmash him :3

it's easier to counter the illusion with your usmash (face away from him and time it), but if you see the chance to, do it! for example i can see it happening if he tries to zip to the other side of the stage from above and messes up his cancel.

lucario's easy (i think we counter him) and i don't know diddy. i think fox and diddy can infinite each other, specially in fd. ...stupid diddy. i remember practicing the infinite on smashville. you need practice for that. maybe i should think up a few setups for that.

 

[Rizk18]

Do you think Fox will rise to A-tier in the next BBR tier list? Seeing as he only has like 3 horrible MU's and like 2 or 3 45-55?

 

[RPK]

Huh...I thought Nair was 6 frames. But yeah, U-tilt then since nair is too noticable since you gotta be in the air and then come down on them with it, grabbing out of it with a boost pivot doesnt seem realistic, jab doesnt work, so itd be upsmash, u-tilt, would Sh dair work at all?

For one of the banana set ups, I was thinking Z-drop, Dair to catch the banana and them as well, D-throw the banana when theyre in hitstun and start the infinite from there. Though, I forget how the darn thing worked but yeah ^^;;

Then Pit should be up there considering he has 50-50s practically all the way across the board and at worst a 6-4. Such a damn good character. Same with Shiek/Zelda imo.

 

[crifer]

I showed CRZ a good thing against Diddy (and I practiced really a lot of stuff with nanas)...

you make a fullhop dthrow the nana on diddy, press cstick down and catch it (DI a little bit away), running JC toss to usmash. kills @ 85 and is a true combo.
We have afaik no infinite against diddy

you can dair falco out of sideB, much easier. utilt should be stupid hard to time...

 

[RPK]

Oh, we have an infinite on Diddy. It's the single Nana lock. :V Though its probably stupid hard to do consistently even though its just foot stool nana, foot stool nana, and you have to control where they fall too. I forget how though...I think its how you foot stool off of them that determines what direction they trip in.

 

[crifer]

Oh, we have an infinite on Diddy. It's the single Nana lock. :V Though its probably stupid hard to do consistently even though its just foot stool nana, foot stool nana, and you have to control where they fall too. I forget how though...I think its how you foot stool off of them that determines what direction they trip in.

prove, plz.

 

[RPK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5oxtJsxdTA&feature=channel_video_title
We do that and in order to have a set up, Dair them with banana in hand, then D-throw, and continue it from there. Timing is different for each character of course because of how high they jump up, and how fast they fall ect. In addition to how you throw the banana, or how you foot stool I think effects what direction they slip in. It's interesting, and fun stuff.
Also this is why I think Fox would have a fun time on Yoshi's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXXIyk_Fb6M&feature=channel_video_title
Platform cancels...All around!!

 

[crifer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5oxtJsxdTA&feature=channel_video_title
We do that and in order to have a set up, Dair them with banana in hand, then D-throw, and continue it from there. Timing is different for each character of course because of how high they jump up, and how fast they fall ect. In addition to how you throw the banana, or how you foot stool I think effects what direction they slip in. It's interesting, and fun stuff.
Also this is why I think Fox would have a fun time on Yoshi's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXXIyk_Fb6M&feature=channel_video_title
Platform cancels...All around!!

oh, ok...I´m gonna try it out...
they slip in the direction where you throw the nana... if you throw the nana more at their left side of the body, they gonna slip right etc.

 

[TKD]

sheik/zelda is garbage compared to chars like the spacies. she's around as good as rob or lucario.

PROVE that we have an infinite on diddy? like, every char does. those i've found for fox are these; they include 1, 2 and 3 consecutive footstools (before landing) respectively:
- short footstool with nana held + downtoss, fast-fall and catch while drifting into diddy, link to continuity
- short footstool with nana held + downtoss, drift into diddy while catching nana, short footstool again (you haven't touched the ground) plus nana catch (doesn't matter if you airdodge since you're going to the ground anyway), link to continuity
- short footstool with nana held + downtoss, drift into diddy while catching nana, LARGE footstool + downtoss, drift into diddy while catching nana, short footstool + downtoss (doesn't matter if you airdodge since you're going to the ground anyway), link into continuity

continuity links:
- downtoss a nana very close to diddy while your back faces him. during trip animation, this sends him into you. you can then short hop into diddy while catching nana + footstool
- footstool the tripped diddy and use whichever footstool downtoss variation you will. you'll need another method if you want to switch directions
- turn around and footstool the tripped diddy to switch directions of the infinite (like the first of these three methods)

as for ideas to start it, either footstool openings (poor of him if he trips), or drop nana + recatch with dair into diddy, buffer turn-around downtoss upon connection of dair, begin infinite. there's also downtoss from above into nana catch (while falling) into footstool, but for that the nana must've hit diddy directly, not after it being blocked or spot-dodged. way unlikely. people should find more openings.

about platforms:
- use shorter cycles for the infinite to avoid platforms
- smashville platforms: hold down so you don't occasionally land on it by bad luck if you want: though this requires more tech skill. learn to time/measure your cycle so you never do the first footstool onto the platform (otherwise it'll obstruct you). my method was to use turn around + double footstool (the first before it's here, the second, shorter one to pass beneath it). if double foot-stool wasn't enough to go all the way through it, i'd complete it with the triple one (which goes short footstool, big footstool, any footstool -the third is so short it doesn't matter much-).

i once tried to record all of them, but my pc is too slow so the recording usually comes out horrible. i don't have the infinite practiced because i don't need it: i don't get to play vs any diddy.
it's a drag that a single match-up requires so much specific tech skill.

 

[Omni]

got my *** handed to me by a lucario this weekend.

 

[TKD]

no he won't rise to a tier without anyone good representing him. and he doesn't have 3 horrible match-ups. i don't even think he has one. they make the tier lists according to the players that attend certain tournaments. match-up wise, yeah; fox is high tier. but that's not being shown in the tournaments they take into account.

lucario...you can shine+hop or powerblock spheres. your grab range is a bit bigger than his. if he's chaingrabbing you, it might be good to buffer a \/b (but don't spam airjump, you'd lose it during the cg). if he mis-spaces his sh fair, you can block and fair him or block and usmash. if you block a dair (lift your guard!), there's time to usmash from block. lucario has a weak fair and a slow bair btw. his recovery doesn't rock. mmm...fight instead of pushing kills of course. that should be obvious, but even if you're not doing it, it may get worse vs lucario. if he whiffs fsmash, you can dash usmash him during his cooldown. it may be possible for there to be time to unblock, buffer dash usmash after blocking it without powershield, but i haven't tried it.

zone or space lucario. it's fine. you're not in trouble by getting in his face like vs snake. if a lucario's much better than you or if you're careless, yeah he can beat you.

 

[crifer]

sheik/zelda is garbage compared to chars like the spacies. she's around as good as rob or lucario.

PROVE that we have an infinite on diddy? like, every char does. those i've found for fox are these; they include 1, 2 and 3 consecutive footstools (before landing) respectively:
- short footstool with nana held + downtoss, fast-fall and catch while drifting into diddy, link to continuity
- short footstool with nana held + downtoss, drift into diddy while catching nana, short footstool again (you haven't touched the ground) plus nana catch (doesn't matter if you airdodge since you're going to the ground anyway), link to continuity
- short footstool with nana held + downtoss, drift into diddy while catching nana, LARGE footstool + downtoss, drift into diddy while catching nana, short footstool + downtoss (doesn't matter if you airdodge since you're going to the ground anyway), link into continuity

continuity links:
- downtoss a nana very close to diddy while your back faces him. during trip animation, this sends him into you. you can then short hop into diddy while catching nana + footstool
- footstool the tripped diddy and use whichever footstool downtoss variation you will. you'll need another method if you want to switch directions
- turn around and footstool the tripped diddy to switch directions of the infinite (like the first of these three methods)

as for ideas to start it, either footstool openings (poor of him if he trips), or drop nana + recatch with dair into diddy, buffer turn-around downtoss upon connection of dair, begin infinite. there's also downtoss from above into nana catch (while falling) into footstool, but for that the nana must've hit diddy directly, not after it being blocked or spot-dodged. way unlikely. people should find more openings.

about platforms:
- use shorter cycles for the infinite to avoid platforms
- smashville platforms: hold down so you don't occasionally land on it by bad luck if you want: though this requires more tech skill. learn to time/measure your cycle so you never do the first footstool onto the platform (otherwise it'll obstruct you). my method was to use turn around + double footstool (the first before it's here, the second, shorter one to pass beneath it). if double foot-stool wasn't enough to go all the way through it, i'd complete it with the triple one (which goes short footstool, big footstool, any footstool -the third is so short it doesn't matter much-).

i once tried to record all of them, but my pc is too slow so the recording usually comes out horrible. i don't have the infinite practiced because i don't need it: i don't get to play vs any diddy.
it's a drag that a single match-up requires so much specific tech skill.

Holy ****. I tried it like 15 minutes...That is so incredible hard to do ... but I´m gonna practice that stuff so long until I can do it consistently >.<

 

[TKD]

Yeah, it takes time. The Smashville one is difficult. Remember that if you start drifting before Fox has finished tossing the peel down, you'll send Diddy the other way. So let Fox toss it before you begin drifting.

I've only practiced it for fun/curiosity. My area doesn't have good diddies.

 

[Conviction]

Aiyyo my-next-to-kin, what do you think about Shine and it's applications?

 

[TKD]

Shine is one of our best moves! It's very good and very unique. This is a list of its uses:

• Stopping yourself from falling, more than once! For example, Mario's cape only works once and has more cool-down. Some obvious examples of its utility are a Mach Tornado or a smash attack being charged up below you...and even allows repositioning, or punishment with a well-timed fast-fall aerial as soon as the opponent's cool-down sets in. It also resets your fast-fall, if you find that useful.
• Reseting your aerial drifting. If you're drifting into your opponent, who attempts to juggle you, you can shine and regain control over your drifting, so you can switch directions without it being telegraphed. For example, you're put into a position where you can perform an air-dodge or aerial into the opponent, but you shine. Then, since it's ambiguous whether you'll drift into or away from the opponent since there's possibility for either, a much broader mix-up sets in. It's one of the reasons Fox is one of the toughest chars to juggle.
• Turn around in the air. This is a very quick way of doing it. Useful to face the direction you want to airjump fair into, or to set up an aerial like back air.
• Countering projectile games. Shine has two anti-projectile characteristics: It reflects them into the opposite direction, now under your control; and it allows you to roll, spot-dodge or hop (my favorite) as soon as you've reflected a projectile. Some specifics: you can shine R.O.B.'s projectiles on reaction (when he begins a move's animation at a range only a projectile would be reasonably inputed), you can't cancel out of reflecting Pikmin (so Olimar has, in my opinion, a big advantage when far away), and I don't think you can re-direct Pit's arrows after gaining control over them.
• Activate invincibility frames. Shine's hitbox comes out on frame 3, and from input to said moment, Fox becomes invincible. A buffered shine can be a clutch way of escaping some wrongly inputed loops; mostly things your opponents are not buffering. Also, you can shine Snake's grenades while under his control, cause the explosion, and not get damaged. This can fail because the duration of hitboxes extends when they hit something, though (the explosion has hit me after being extended by contact on Snake's shield. I don't know if this depends on spacing). If you're very flashy, you can even hop into a mine and shine it just before you contact it: you'll invincibly blow it up if you touch it with shine's hitbox.
• The shine can be used to gimp several characters, for example you can counter Falco's fire by blocking its trajectory with it, or counter his air-jump nair from the ledge by walking into him and executing it. Other chars vulnerable to shine "spikes" that I remember right now are Ike and the Links. You can react to Diddy's upb with downb if he releases into you...I've done jab, straight, shine vs Snake and Falco to force them to upb too. Jabs until the opponent wastes an air-jump, then a shine is a sneaky way to put them in trouble.
• Shine is our best way to ledge-stall. Letting go of the ledge, air-jumping into it and shining before holding it again; is quicker than waiting for a full air-jump to grab it again. If it's actually too early to grab the ledge again for a ledgehog, you can shine again before grabbing the ledge.
• Wall locks: At low enough percentage for the opponent not to fall over by it, you can shine repeatedly as a combo. I've seen it work in the air against the stage Yoshi's Story, but it can be smash DI'd. There's a chance this doesn't work at all with SDI x4 (QCDI+C-stick), but it's worked for me on Stadium's wall.
• Some combos that I don't use involve shine.

 

[phi1ny3]

sheik/zelda is garbage compared to chars like the spacies. she's around as good as rob or lucario.

lol, that phase sure didn't last long
*smirk*

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

lucario...you can shine+hop or powerblock spheres. your grab range is a bit bigger than his. if he's chaingrabbing you, it might be good to buffer a \/b (but don't spam airjump, you'd lose it during the cg). if he mis-spaces his sh fair, you can block and fair him or block and usmash. if you block a dair (lift your guard!), there's time to usmash from block. lucario has a weak fair and a slow bair btw. his recovery doesn't rock. mmm...fight instead of pushing kills of course. that should be obvious, but even if you're not doing it, it may get worse vs lucario. if he whiffs fsmash, you can dash usmash him during his cooldown. it may be possible for there to be time to unblock, buffer dash usmash after blocking it without powershield, but i haven't tried it.

zone or space lucario. it's fine. you're not in trouble by getting in his face like vs snake. if a lucario's much better than you or if you're careless, yeah he can beat you.

This is correct.

Few tid bits.

If Lucario knows your trying to mash out of the CG with vB it's a free shield grab.

Buffer dash Usmash OoS works if his aura is lower,at higher aura it's safe on block.

sheik/zelda is garbage compared to chars like the spacies. she's around as good as rob or lucario.

...really?

 

[TKD]

Yeah. Mid tier chars aren't "garbage" per say, but I've tried playing them and always end up frustrated.

About blocking the shine for the same result, I think you should rather go for a better reward, like blocking the shine then executing short hop fair into dair. I don't know if it's a combo at such low percentages, but at those percentages Fox usually suffers more hit-stun than most of the cast, so it's at least more likely than vs other chars.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, I'd rather bait it -> strutter step fsmash if they are popped up just barely high enough to not nick me with the shine.

Does buffered shine truly break out of the CG?

Also, I was referring to when you said awhile ago that you were picking up sheik, so has that gone out the window? I don't quite blame you, she's pretty fragile lol.

 

[*CT*]

I buffer shine on wifi and it usually breaks out of CG usually. I thought it was just wifi and lag that made it happen though.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I usually just shield grab so I can get a free Dthrow or Bthrow, Your right though I should go for the other options he has OoS. Fair>dair or Shutter step Fsmash would work out. ty.

Phil, Buffered shine doesn't break him out.

 

[phi1ny3]

I buffer shine on wifi and it usually breaks out of CG usually. I thought it was just wifi and lag that made it happen though.

Well, it is wifi...

Red Ryu can attest to say when I tried CGing him with ICs I couldn't do it outside of hobbling lol. I got maybe 3-4 alternative grab cycles if I was lucky lol

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lux couldn't even CG me on wifi.

Cause it's wifi.

Still it's not match-up changing if he gets it or anything, it's just free damage if Lucario gets a grab in the end.

 

[phi1ny3]

Pretty much

 

[RPK]

So I'm looking at some stuff from this man
http://www.youtube.com/user/innocentroads#p/u
And was wondering what do you think would be useful to practice? And rank from like...easiest to hardest in terms of being able to do it consistently. I'd just practice what I think looks cool, but no Wii to practice on so I can't really do anything till I go to a friends house o.o

 

[*CT*]

Its off topic, but I know its important, I watched your video TKD but I still can't learn how to SHTL x.x

 

[TKD]

uselessboards ftw?

 

[C.R.Z]

uh the black plague keeps turning up, wtf

 

[phi1ny3]

uselessboards ftw?

lulz, it's cuz Friday

lol

 

[knuckles213]

damn, with all this said about fox, can some take a look at my fox skill and tell me ways of getting better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MfrWAjF668

 

[TKD]

there's a different thread for just that. i don't like analyzing vids; it takes a lot of time.

 

[Conviction]

My-next-to-kin! I need help. I have a tourney tomorrow and some big names in our region including M2K since he lives in my state now. I'm been trying to learn how to see how players apply certain attacks so I can counter them. So the main point here is homie, how do you observe them or analyze their style without losing your fluidity or slowing down, giving up your momentum?

 

[Lightning93]

I think it is important to remember we all have different learning styles and varying levels of innate talent. Don't rely completely on TKD's advice to get you where you want to be, as a big part of becoming better is applying his (or other sources of) knowledge to yourself as an individual. You have to be just a bit cautious when you ask questions like that Iblis .

 

[Conviction]

I think it is important to remember we all have different learning styles and varying levels of innate talent. Don't rely completely on TKD's advice to get you where you want to be, as a big part of becoming better is applying his (or other sources of) knowledge to yourself as an individual. You have to be just a bit cautious when you ask questions like that Iblis .

Don't worry my other next-to-kin, that's what I'm doing.

Patg, also help me with some things I theorized and put to practice yesterday. So I think I'm made some steps in the right direction. I just wanted another person's view on how to analyzing attack patterns. So actually anyone's advice is useful. I'll just pick and choose what I can use and apply.

 

[Lightning93]

Awesome! And don't worry, I wasn't just talking to you specifically.