Stage Information Database and Q&A

#HBC | Red Ryu · May 27, 2011

Well dang people ban FD a lot.

I'm trying to figure out who those 20 bans from Lucario came from, only Diddy and Ice Climbers would have him ban that stage.

Also claim to being the only Lucario who CP'd Norfair.

Raziek · May 27, 2011

I would have CP'd Norfair, but I had to play 2 MKs, so I CP'd PS2 and Picto.

Life · May 27, 2011

I'm baaaaack. But I don't have the ruleset text file for now, so I won't be editing the rules again anytime soon.

Also, liking that new subdiscussion Sunshade. *gets ready to post hybrid CP system there*

Raziek · May 27, 2011

http://supersmashbroshalifax.com/forum.aspx?g=posts&t=63

Gentlemen, and colleagues of the stage boards. Today marks a personal victory for myself, and for liberal stage enthusiasts everywhere, as Smash Halifax has finished our final referendum on our stagelist, and come out with the following results:

Stage List

Starter:

Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi’s Island (Brawl)
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1
Halberd
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Pokemon Stadium 2

Counterpick:

Final Destination
Luigi's Mansion
Pirate Ship
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Pictochat
Rainbow Cruise
Jungle Japes
Norfair
Green Greens
Distant Planet
Port Town Aero Dive

9 starters, no FD. PS2. 21 legal stages total.

Today is a good day.

John12346 · May 27, 2011

THAT PROGRESS :D

Also your ruleset doesn't cover vertex hacks.

Raziek · May 27, 2011

Hm. Thought we addressed that, but I'll make note of it. Vertex hacks are forbidden if they modify gameplay at all.

Edit: Has been corrected.

WindMajor · May 27, 2011

I'm moving to Halifax I guess.

MK26 · May 28, 2011

Maestro's Ruleset

The Method Behind the Madness

This ruleset follows a few simple principles. First off, don't touch anything that's in the game unless it's overly centralizing - leave everything as clean as possible. This means that (among other things) any kind of infinite, regardless of difficulty, prior requirements, necessity for the viability of the infiniter or damage to the viability of the infinitee, is legal. The corollary to this is that if something is overcentralizing, it needs to go, lest it damage the integrity of the game.

Now, how exactly does one determine whether something is overcentralizing? Here's a hypothetical scenario: If you're vastly superior to me in general Smash skill (mindgames, prediction, execution, etc.) and we're even in knowledge of a particular topic (a stage, items, a tactic), you should be able to destroy me regardless of whether the topic is present or not. If, with the topic turned on, you can't guarantee the same rate of success as with it turned off, then the topic clearly shifts the focus off of game skill and onto itself. Take note, this isn't the same as a strong player losing on a weaker player's counterpick which he knows nothing about - that case proves nothing. If you and I both know what we need to know about a specific subject, and you with all your skill can't prevent that subject from moving the tide of battle out of your favour, then it detracts from what we're trying to compete in and thus should be removed.

Secondly, even if this ruleset is grounded in theory, it should be usable in practice. This means no outlandish ideas and no straying too far from accepted standards. If you're unable to switch from another ruleset to this one quickly and easily, I've failed at my job in making it. If anything, I would describe this ruleset as 'theory pushed as close to practicality as possible' - this is my attempt to make a ruleset that can satisfy myself as a theorist without alienating the regular tournament-goer.

The intent of a Starter or 'Neutral' subset of stages is to achieve the median of bias in as many situations as possible without having to strike from a full list, and to provide an odd number of stages to strike from within an even-numbered list of stages. Nine stages appears to be the average accepted number among tournaments not using the standard five-pack, and it lends itself better to balanced stage striking than either seven or eleven do. Thus, with the number of stages chosen, all we have to do is figure out which ones will fill those slots. However, as much as a ruleset's most prominent feature is its stage list, I don't want discussion to be entirely focused around it - I've made other changes as well (highlighted in Royal Blue). The stage list is much more subject to change than the rest of the ruleset.

I will be providing a lengthy section for footnotes at the end of this post, where my decisions will be justified and expanded upon (This section is coming later).

General Gameplay Rules

3 Stocks; 9 Minute Time Limit.
Items set to "Off" and "None".
(DOUBLES) Team Attack set to "On".
All infinites and chain grabs are legal.
(DOUBLES) Life stealing is allowed.
Intentionally making the game unplayable (commonly known as 'stalling') is banned and will result in a forfeit of the match.
[collapse=Examples of Stalling]Examples of stalling include but are not limited to:
- Using Meta Knight's Infinite Cape Glitch and Extended Cape Glitch
- Continuing infinites, chain grabs, or uninterruptable moves past 300%
- Deliberately entering a normally inaccessible part of a stage, such as underneath the floor of Halberd or inside the mountain on Pokémon Stadium 2's Ground transformation
These actions are not stalling:
- Playing safe, defensively, or 'campy', including repeatedly grabbing the ledge ('planking')
- Using Sonic's Homing Attack to stay underneath a stage
[/collapse]
Any action that can prevent the game from continuing (i.e., freezing, disappearing characters, game reset, etc.) will result in a forfeit of that match for the player that initiated the action. You are responsible for knowing your own character, and must be wary about accidentally triggering one of these effects.
(DOUBLES) If a player is using the character Pokemon Trainer, Lucario, or Sonic, either team may request that team colors be changed to make it easier to tell the difference between team players.

Win Conditions

Meta Knight has a Ledge Grab Limit of 35 grabs per game, and no other character has a Ledge Grab Limit; If a game goes to time and one player goes over Meta Knight's Ledge Grab Limit, they will automatically lose the game. If at least one player from each team exceeds their Ledge Grab Limit, then this rule is ignored.
If the Ledge Grab Limit rule does not declare one player the winner of the match, the winner will be determined by what the game says in all situations, except for when the game goes to time and/or the players are presented with Sudden Death:
- A difference in stock will be shown on the results screen; if stocks are tied, then the player or team with a lower combined percent wins.
- If both stocks and percent are tied, or if the match goes to Sudden Death after ending with two players dying at the same time (either coincidentally or via suicide move), then a one-stock, three-minute rematch will be played on the same stage with the same characters. Meta Knight has a Ledge Grab Limit of 13 for this tiebreaker.

Set Procedure

Player Priority is determined if it can not be agreed on. (See below for details)
Each Team selects one controller port to use for each Player.
- (DOUBLES) Port selection is ordered in 1-2-2-1 fashion (with Team 1 having first choice in controller slot select, Team 2 having both second and third choice, and the final slot going to Team 1).
Each Team selects one character for each Player. A double blind pick may be called by any player.
The first game is played on a Stage selected from the Starter Stage List either by mutual consent or through the Stage Striking Method. The order of stage striking will be 1-2-2-1-1-2-2-1 (Team 1 strikes a stage, the teams alternate striking two stages at a time until only two remain, and Team 1 chooses one of the two remaining stages for the match to be played on).
The first match is played.
The team that lost the previous match may opt to re-pick controller ports (with themselves picking first).
The Team that won the previous match may announce two "Stage Bans" if they have not already done so in this set.
The Team that lost the previous match announces the stage for the next match from either the Starter or the Counterpick Stage List. Any stage named as a "Stage Ban" by the opposing team may not be chosen. A stage that the choosing team has won on in a previous match of the set may not be chosen, unless that match was the first of the set. This means that a team may re-select the stage that match 1 was played on if the opposing team does not use one of their "Stage Bans" on it.
The Team that won the previous match chooses one character for each Player.
The Team that lost the previous match chooses one character for each Player.
The next match is played.
Repeat steps 6-11 for all proceeding matches.

Determining Player Priority
If there is a dispute in controller port selection or initiating Stage Strike use the following method:
Teams may agree to Rock-Paper-Scissors; otherwise it is determined with a coin-flip. The winning Team shall either elect to have first choice in port selection or first choice in Stage Striking. Whichever Team does not receive first choice in one will be compensated with first choice in the other.

Stage List

Conduct Rules

Basically just copy and paste Unity Rules here, including the new Infraction system. There's no real need to read all that again.

Life · May 28, 2011

Internet high five from ~100 miles south of the Canadian-American border!

MK26 · May 28, 2011

Fixed, mostly.

Explanations coming later.

gogogo post 4000

Supreme Dirt · May 28, 2011

"These actions are not stalling:
Using Sonic's homing attack to stall"
LOLwut?

Also where is Pirate Ship on that stagelist?

Also Raziek I'm coming to Nova Scotia just to play with that stagelist.

MK26 · May 28, 2011

1) whoops, misprint
(and thats one of those things thatll get a really long footnote)

2) i dont trust pirate ship yet
never had fun getting water camped on that stage

Life · May 28, 2011

I'd add PTAD before I added Pirate Ship tbh. For a "standard" ruleset it's pretty decent.

Tesh · May 28, 2011

why do some of you like PTAD so much? Its a horrible stage. It could sort of work in OSF, but even then, there is the MK issue.

WindMajor · May 28, 2011

Because PTAD is a lot of fun to play on, and it's competitively viable stage.

Oh, and I'm gonna link your rulesets to your profile in the OP, guys. If you want to make a new ruleset, or make revisions, modify that post instead of making a second post so I don't have to hassle myself changing links everyday.

Supreme Dirt · May 28, 2011

Metaknight doesn't need PTAD. He does better on RC and Brinstar.

Also I've been working on my own ruleset, I'll post it eventually.

Scatz · May 28, 2011

Is there going to be discussion about having a separate list for doubles? I think there's some stages that work better for doubles than in singles.

Life · May 28, 2011

There was one a while ago. Every time doubles is brought up the discussion generally concludes with "doubles matches eventually boil down to 1v1".

Also, I think I started a fad, lol

WindMajor · May 28, 2011

I updated the OP and added the rulesets for MK26, Raziek, and InCom in thier respective profiles.

If I'm missing a ruleset, tell me.

Tarmogoyf · May 28, 2011

Supreme Dirt said:
Metaknight doesn't need PTAD. He does better on RC and Brinstar.

This misses the point.

Assuming 2 stage bans, it gives him a really good CP, which he doesn't have.

On 1 stage ban, it gives him an additional CP in Bo5 sets.

Like, people CP picto against MK because it's FD like much of the time. Sure, FD is better, but it's hardly irrelevant.

Tesh · May 28, 2011

You guys are assuming that RC and Brinstar really ARE better for MK in every situation. Do you think that is truly the case in matches like.... MK vs Wario or MK vs GnW? MK vs Sonic even? Don't think so folks. You don't really even know if this stage is worse for MK than those 2. In many ways its like Brinstar but even more harsh on recoveries. There is also the fact that he can stall fairly easily without ledge grabs

Grim Tuesday · May 29, 2011

Grim's Theory-Based Rule-set

RULES:

OTHER RULES:

In the event of a Sudden Death, ignore it's results and the player who had the lowest damage percentage prior to the Sudden Death is declared the winner.
- If both stock and percentage are identical or a game ends with both players being KO'd simultaneously then the match is replayed.
Any action that prevents the game from continuing results in a forfeiture of the match for the offender.

Set Procedure

Both players play a game of Rock-Paper-Scissors with each other. The winner chooses either their controller port or the order of striking for the first game, the loser is given the option that their opponent did not choose.
Both players choose their characters and sub-character/costume (double-blind pick) for the first game.
Both players then take turns striking stages in a 9-10-1 order starting with the player chosen to strike first in Step 1. These stages are banned for the remainder of the set.
Both players then take turns striking the remaining stages 1 at a time until only 1 remains.
Match 1 is played on the remaining stage after Step 4's striking.
The loser of the previous game selects a stage that wasn't struck during Step 3 and that they haven't counter-picked and won on previously in the set (unless the opponent agrees to play on it).
The winner of the previous game chooses their character.
The loser of the previous game chooses their character.
The next game is played on the stage selected in Step 6.
- Repeat steps 6-9 until a player has won 5 times [Bo9] (for a regular bracket match) or 7 times [Bo13] (for a finals match).

-----------------------------------

Grim's Practical Rule-set

RULES:

OTHER RULES:

Meta Knight cannot be chosen by either player without their opponent's permission.
In the event of a Sudden Death, ignore it's results and the player who had the lowest damage percentage prior to the Sudden Death is declared the winner.
- If both stock and percentage are identical or a game ends with both players being KO'd simultaneously then the match is replayed.
Any action that prevents the game from continuing results in a forfeiture of the match for the offender.

Set Procedure

Both players play a game of Rock-Paper-Scissors with each other. The winner chooses either their controller port or the order of striking for the first game, the loser is given the option that their opponent did not choose.
Both players choose their characters and sub-character/costume (double-blind pick) for the first game.
Both players then take turns striking stages one at a time starting with the player chosen to strike first in Step 1 until only one remains.
Match 1 is played on the remaining stage after Step 3's striking.
The winner of the previous match bans two stages from being selected in the next round.
The loser of the previous game selects a legal stage that they haven't counter-picked and won on previously in the set and wasn't banned in the previous step (unless the opponent agrees to play on it).
The winner of the previous game chooses their character.
The loser of the previous game chooses their character.
The next game is played on the stage selected in Step 6.
- Repeat steps 5-9 until a player has won 2 times [Bo3] (for a regular bracket match) or 3 times [Bo5] (for a finals match).

LEGAL STAGE LIST:

Tesh · May 29, 2011

I rofled @ the first "other" rule.

in the 2nd ruleset

Grim Tuesday · May 29, 2011

A good rofl or a bad rofl?

cHp · May 29, 2011

MK's not that good...

Grim Tuesday · May 29, 2011

He is if you don't have a LGL.

And I don't support LGLs.

Tesh · May 29, 2011

The wording of the rule just seemed funny to me. Most rulesets have the implied rule "its okay if you both agree to it", like if you tell your opponent its okay to grab the ledge 200 times as metaknight or something. You could just put MK is banned. Why would you let your opponent use MK if you can stop them?

Grim Tuesday · May 29, 2011

If you're really confident in the MU you might let your opponent go MK.

Not all MKs would plank if there was no LGL and planking doesn't make all MUs 100:0.

WindMajor · May 29, 2011

Are we making complete rulesets now?

Sounds like fun, I'll add this one to the OP, and make my own soon.

Tesh · May 29, 2011

I don't see much point is making a ruleset. Seems alot faster to just point out what I would change from Unity. Obviously MOST of it is just common sense and process of elimination.

MK26 · May 29, 2011

^probably would rofl

for mine: mk-only lgl
modified DSR + 2 stage bans
larger stage list

much faster...

ぱみゅ · May 29, 2011

I posted one a while ago that I didn't revised.... I'll look for it...

Game Settings
Stocks: 3
Timer: 09:00 minutes
Items are set on OFF and NONE
Pause: ON
Team Attack: ON

Before Game One
1. One player is chosen at random, via a Coin toss, a Rock-Paper-Scissors game, or whatever method they agree. Winner chooses if either chooses Ports first or makes the First Stage Strike*. The non-chosen option is given to the other part.
2. If needed, any Controller adjustments or settings are made.
3. Players select their characters.
3.1. If this selection isn't made quickly, a Double Blind Pick (telling their choice to a judge, both MUST choose the character they told him/her they would) may be called.
4. Stage Striking procedure begins.*
4.1. If both parts agree, they can choose any stage to play in, instead of the Strike process.
5. Game starts in the stage chosen in 4.

The Game
-The one who loses their 3 stocks first Loses de Game.
-If a Sudden Death is forced because of a "Suicidal Move"** that ends both players' last stocks at the same time, the winner is the one that initiated the Move. If while trying to do this, the last stock one that performed the move ends BEFORE the opponent's, the victory is still given to the one who tried the Move.
-If the timer runs out, the one with more Stocks left is declared the winner. If both are the same, the one with less damage is the winner.

Restrictions
-Any Lock/Infinite must end as soon as possible after reaching 150%. Otherwise, it might be considered unnecessary stalling.
-Any Glitch/Bug/Exploit that can be used to stall out the timer excessively, or that causes any game malfunction, interruption or freeze, is forbidden. ***
-In the event of a Timeout, a player may call the revision of the “Ledge Grabs” statistic at the results screen. If someone effectively exceeded the limit of 50 (40 for Meta Knight only), the victory is given to their opponent. If both players did, the winner is the one with less Ledge Grabs. If neither did, the stock-damage rule is followed. If the suspicious player doesn't allow this statistic to be revised, the win may be assigned to their opponent.
-Any non-compliance on these points can (and should) be reported to a judge/TO. The penalty of those is entirely their decision and players involved must abide them.

After Game One
1. Winner Selects character.
2. Loser Selects character.
3. Winner might announce up to 3 stage bans from the Stagelist.
4. Loser chooses any Stage from the Stagelist, except any of the ones mentioned in 3.
5. Next game starts
6. Repeat as many times as necessary until the Best-of-3 or Best-of-5 is decided.

*** "Infinite Dimensional Cape", "Sheik's Chain Exploit", "Rudder-camping" and "Halberd's Main Deck Glitch" are examples of these.

** Ganondorf's Flame Choke and Bowser's Flying Slam are examples of "Suicidal Moves". Kirby's/King Dedede's Inhale are not.

* For Stage Striking, is the usage of the Random Stage Screen is recommended, by turning "off" the Stages as they are stroke. The goal of this is remove, one by one, all stages until only one is left. From the given 23-stage list, the first player strikes 5 stages, then, from the 18 stages left the second player strikes 5; then the first player strikes 3, the second one 3, the first 2, the second 2, the first 1, and finally, the second strikes 1. If done correctly, there should be only 1 stage left.

StageList:
01- Battlefield
02- Final Destination
03- Delfino Plaza
04- Luigi's Mansion
05- Pirate Ship
06- Norfair
07- Frigate Orpheon
08- Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
09- Battleship Halberd
10- Lylat Cruise
11- Pokémon Stadium 2
12- Port Town Aero Drive
13- Castle Siege
14- Distant Planet
15- Smashville
16- Skyworld
17- Pictochat
18- Yoshi's Island (Melee)
19- Jungle Japes
20- Green Greens
21- Rainbow Cruise
22- Brinstar
23- Pokémon Stadium (Melee)

Stage Ban Criteria:
If a stage contains any of the following elements, it will be considered banned from the stagelist:
[Permanent Wall] Allows inescapable setups in most cases and helps to rack up high amounts of damage, even if skill is not involved.
[Permanent Flat Walk-off] Creates a high risk-high reward situation, and/or an easy way to take stocks via Chain-Throwing; any of them is unsuitable for competitive play. However, if there's a slope that leads to the walkoff, these situations can be avoided in most cases, so they're allowed.
[Permanent Ceiling] When a non-passable platform is permanently above the lowest one allows characters to live up to very high damages, even if there's no DI/TechSkill involved, so it doesn't fit in competitive play.
[Permanent Circle] "Circle Camping" is defined as the action of avoid direct confrontation by running away through the stage layout. This is used to stall out the timer after getting a stock/damage lead, which may make them win by exploiting a rule, even if they're not as skilled as their opponents. However, if a spot can be reached by any character but opponents difficult it, is not considered "Circle", but just "Camping".
[Wario Ware] This stage has specific ban criteria because of its unique Reward System: After a mini-event happens, the game determines a "winner", and rewards him/her/them by either providing a small damage recovery, a transformation into Giant that lasts a couple seconds, or a Starman Invincibility effect that also lasts some seconds. The game is changed drastically depending on these rewards, and may or may not affect the result. This is not considered random, but obstructive in terms of skill.

Borderline Stages:
Given the former ban criteria, there may be some public disagreements with stage legality. I’ll step back a little and explain the ones I think should be the most common ones:
-"Permanent ceiling" implies that if it is destroyable, or somehow removable, is allowed, so stages like Skyworld, Luigi's Mansion and Yoshi's Island (Melee) remains legal in the list.
-Port Town Aero Drive doesn’t fall for any of the criteria mentioned above.
-Green Greens may or may not fall under the “Circle” criteria. It is pretty much subjective.

Banned Stages:
Mushroomy Kingdom [Walkoff]
Mario Circuit [Walkoff]
Bridge of Eldin [Walkoff]
Spear Pillar [Ceiling/Circle]
Wario Ware
New Pork Town [Ceiling/Circle]
Summit [Ceiling/Circle]
75m. [Circle]
Mario Bros. [Ceiling/Walkoff]
Flat Zone 2 [Walkoff]
Hanenbow [Circle]
Shadow Mosses Island [Wall]
Green Hills Zone [Walkoff]
Temple [Wall/Ceiling/Circle]
Onett [Walkoff/Wall]
Corneria [Wall]
Big Blue [Circle]

The TL;DR

Time: 9mins [max 3mins average per stock, that's a ****load of time...]

Before game 1: choose chars first, then start Stage Strike.
FULL 23-STAGE LIST STRIKE (5-5-3-3-2-2-1-1) [see below]
Before game 2 and further: winner choose char, loser choose char, winner bans up to 3 stages, loser choose stage. [no more pocket surprises]

Suicide move wins no matter screen result. Inhale is not a Suicide Move. [you lolwut, you lose]
Timeout: Stock/damage. LGL: 50 (40 for MetaKnight) [Well, that was subjective, any better idea?]
Infinites must end ASAP @150%. [Infinites no longer solves everything, but if you can't manage from that, you're an idiot]
IDC, Sheik's Chain glitch, Ruddercamping and Halberd stupid glitch are forbidden [Moslty under "stalling"]

Da List:
BF
FD
Delfino
Mansion [!]
Pirate Ship
Norfair
Orpheon
YI:B
Halberd
Lylat
PS2
PTAD [!]
Siege
Distant Planet
SV
Skyworld [!!]
Picto
YI:M
Japes
GGs
RC
Brinstar
PS1

Ban criteria:
Permanent wall, perma walkoff, perma ceiling, perma circle and WarioWare. Everything else is allowed. [WW's case is explained]
Skyworld, Mansion and YI:M doesn't have permanent ceilings, so they're fine. [I was surprised too]
PTAD doesn't fall on any criteria.
GGs maybe falls under Circle. [Innocent until proven bannable]

Banned:
Mushroomy Kingdom [Walkoff]
Mario Circuit [Walkoff]
Bridge of Eldin [Walkoff]
Spear Pillar [Ceiling/Circle]
Wario Ware
New Pork Town [Ceiling/Circle]
Summit [Ceiling/Circle]
75m. [Circle]
Mario Bros. [Ceiling/Walkoff]
Flat Zone 2 [Walkoff]
Hanenbow [Circle]
Shadow Mosses Island [Wall]
Green Hills Zone [Walkoff]
Temple [Wall/Ceiling/Circle]
Onett [Walkoff]
Corneria [Wall]
Big Blue [Circle]

*Don't add it to the OP, still needs to be revised and corrected...

Life · May 29, 2011

Back from tournament.

Even more rulesets LOL

Tarmogoyf · May 29, 2011

Making your own ruleset seems good. I'm going to posts 2 of them later actually (one liberal, one conservative)

But I need to iron out kinks in both of them first lol

Ghostbone · May 29, 2011

Grim your theory based ruleset doesn't work.

There's 42 stages in brawl.

MK 1-1 and MK 1-2 are different >.>

Grim Tuesday · May 30, 2011

I'll sort that out in a sec.

Is there a way to choose MK 1-1, or do you just have to do trial and error? I know you can hold a button for 1-2...

ぱみゅ · May 30, 2011

It is possible with hacks... :V
just sayin...

Life · May 30, 2011

Yeah, A/B gets you one stage and L/R gets you the other (I think X and Y work too but I forget for which one)

Grim Tuesday · May 30, 2011

Guess I'll just start off with WarioWare banned, then.

cHp · May 30, 2011

Grim Tuesday said:
I'll sort that out in a sec.

Is there a way to choose MK 1-1, or do you just have to do trial and error? I know you can hold a button for 1-2...

Ground

* Gamecube Controller: X or Y
* Classic Controller: Same as Gamecube
* Remote & Nunchuk: C
* Wii Remote: A

Underground

* Gamecube Controller: L or R
* Classic Controller: Same as Gamecube
* Remote & Nunchuk: Z
* Wii Remote: B

Stage Information Database and Q&A

Red Fox Warrior

Charging Limit All Day

Smash Hero

Charging Limit All Day

Smash Master

Charging Limit All Day

.

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Master

King of the Railway

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

.

King of the Railway

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

.

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

Smash Apprentice

Smash Legend

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

.

Smash Hero

Smash Master

❤ ~

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Legend

❤ ~

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

Smash Apprentice

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