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Stage Information Database and Q&A

Life

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
5,264
Location
Grieving No Longer
Tesh, I'll get to you in a second. I just wanted to post this...

[collapse="Incom Ruleset 0.5"]The Incom Ruleset

ORIGINAL INTRO (BASED ON UNITY 1.0):
Greetings, fellow Smashboarders. I'm Incom, a relatively inexperienced player (if not exactly by choice) but more importantly a much stronger Brawl rules theorist. Inspired by my fellows from the stage discussion boards, from whom I draw much of my knowledge (and also proofreading), I'd like to present a ruleset.

When the BBR-Ruleset Committee (hereafter BRC) was first announced, we met it with rather varied reactions. Some of us were excited that a ruleset could actually be enforced. But then I looked at the rules as they stood. I won't speak for the others, but I for one was not amused. All the hard work we had put in, all the logic that nobody could refute, all the people we had convinced (of which I am one), but more importantly, all the work the BBR (which is unrelated to the BRC despite BBR being in the latter's name) had put into THREE official rulesets was officially down the drain. Several stages which were permissible under BBR rules were suddenly illegal in BRC rules, with no obvious logic to their inclusion or exclusion (notably Jungle Japes being banned but Pictochat being legal). I tried to look to the bright side--at least PS2 made the cut--but I couldn't shake the fact that five people selected because they were tournament organizers (though the organization has admitted more since) had just overruled dozens who had been selected due to game knowledge, without a shred of logic explaining why.

After a while, I realized that simply arguing about it was not going to earn myself or my open-stage colleagues any respect or progress. Ever tried to push down a wall? It's not easy. So I quieted down for a while, still making comments where I could, and all the while staring at that thread and wondering what I could do.

Recently, the BRC finally released the full Unity Ruleset. To their credit, they didn't do so bad a job--one or two clauses they've newly suggested are here as well.

Except that stagelist. It had not changed.

Yes, five starters, including the infamous Battlefield/Smashville/Final Destination combination. Yes, Pictochat still legal over Jungle Japes. Yes, both Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise with only one stage ban, despite FD being included in the starters--as I understand it--primarily to counterbalance MK. No mention of the likes of Norfair or Port Town Aero Dive or Distant Planet, despite those being fine counterpick stages.

I realized that if we were going to argue over stages, we might as well argue over rules as well.

Again, the BRC didn't do terribly here.

But I think we can do better.

And so, inspired by like-minded members, I present to Smash World Forums a ruleset. Crafted with an ideal in mind: that through careful management of the rules of engagement, we can create a more varied, more competitive Brawl.

EDIT FOR UNITY RULESET 1.1: Pictochat is banned. This I am okay with, but stages like Jungle Japes and Norfair were again ignored. I receive assurance from newer BRC members that "some" issues the stage boards tend to harp about are being discussed. I still worry. A few other changes went through as well, but they were harmless.

--------------------------------------------------------
RULES OF CONDUCT: These are pretty much copy-and-paste of Unity, with a few mostly-cosmetic edits.

1. BYOC (Bring your own controller): Players are expected to bring their own controller and be prepared for every tournament set.
2. Pause can be requested off and that request cannot be denied. If one pauses mid-match, they immediately forfeit that game, unless some sort of temporary emergency occurred.
3. Players who use the Wii Remote must take the batteries out of the Wii Remote when not playing. If the Wii Remote is still synced up to a Wii with the batteries in, you could unintentionally disrupt a match. If problems persist, a DQ may happen.
4. You are responsible for your property. Any malfunctions or errors that occur are your responsibility (including battery issues with a Wii Remote), so bring an extra controller if possible and always check to make sure you're using the correct settings BEFORE a match is played. Both parties need to agree if a match is to be paused or restarted because of these problems.
5. Intentional forfeiting, match fixing, splitting, and any other forms of bracket manipulation are not allowed and punishable by the TO.
6. No substitutions are allowed for singles or doubles.
7. Coaching is allowed only between games, not during. Failure to adhere to this will lead to punishment at the TO's discretion, which could include the removal from the venue.
8. DQ Rule: Arriving too late for a match will result in a DQ. Player(s) who arrive ten or more minutes late to their match lose the set.
9. The tournament organizer has the right to save/record any tournament match if possible and has the right to upload said match.

Regarding textures and other game hacks:

1. Players may request that any texture, stage, or other hacks be disabled during a tournament set. If this is unable to be done, they may switch to a different setup if available.
2. Do not use any texture hacks that may disrupt gameplay; for example, making a particularly distracting Final Destination background.
3. Players are not allowed to use any game altering hacks, such as no-tripping or model hacks. If someone is caught setting up a system they brought with such hacks enabled can face punishment at the TO's discretion.
4. Disrupting your opponent physically or intending to disrupt their play (through something such as screaming in a player's ear or manipulating another player's controller) will result in a warning. Repeated action will result in disqualification from the tournament and possibly ejection from the venue. Observers who physically disrupt players are to be dealt with as the Tournament Organiser sees fit. Disqualification is recommended if possible, and ejection from the venue is also a punishment.
--------------------------------------------------------
SET PROCEDURE: Ah, yes. The hybrid striking system. My own creation.

Players select characters for Game 1. A double-blind pick may be requested. If a double-blind is requested, characters are revealed before striking stages.

Players determine who strikes stages first. If players cannot come to an agreement on their own, rock-paper-scissors is recommended, but other methods such as a coin flip or GnW hammer battle are also acceptable. The winner may choose to select their controller port first or strike stages first.

The legal stagelist is as follows:

Battlefield
Yoshi's Island
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium
Final Destination
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Frigate Orpheon
Brinstar
Rainbow Cruise
Pokémon Stadium 2
Jungle Japes
Norfair
Green Greens
Distant Planet
Luigi's Mansion
Pirate Ship
Port Town Aero Dive
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
(21 total stages. If a stage not on this list is to be tested, add it alongside Pictochat to maintain an odd number.)

It is recommended that pencil and paper be kept near each setup to record stage striking.

In a regular bracket match, players strike four stages each, in a 1-2-2-1-1-2-2-1 fashion. In a "finals" match, players strike three stages each, in a 1-2-1-2-2-1 fashion.

Players then select their counterpicks for the set. In a best-of-seven "regular" set, each player selects three counterpicks. In a best-of-thirteen "finals" set, each player selects six counterpicks. Each player uses these as their "counterpick pool" for the match.

Players strike the remaining stages (in the same alternating fashion used above) until one remains. Game 1 is played on this stage.

For games 2 and on, the loser may pick from any stage in his counterpick pool. Then, either player may choose to redo character selection.

Continue playing until the winner of the set emerges.

Dave's Stupid Rule: variation. A player that wins on their counterpick has the stage they played on eliminated from their counterpick pool.
--------------------------------------------------------
IN-GAME RULES:

1. 1 Stock
2. 3 Minute Timer
3. Items: Food is turned on. All other items are turned off. Frequency is set to medium.
4. All other settings should remain on their defaults.

OUT-OF-GAME RULES:

1. Extending Meta Knight's Dimensional Cape is banned.
2. The tournament should be run in a double-elimination format. Loser's Finals, Winner's Finals, and the Grand Finals should be best-of-thirteen. All other bracket sets should be best-of-7.
3. Forms of stalling not explicitly banned in this ruleset are NOT banned. This is because those forms of stalling involve constant activity. Since stock leads are impossible under this ruleset, and food is present to negate percent leads, stalling out a match while maintaining a lead is nearly impossible.
4. Actions which make the game unplayable (freezing the game, making a character invisible, etc.) results in a game loss for the player who makes the game unplayable.
5. If a game goes to time, the player with a greater remaining precentage wins. If percentage is tied, see Rule #7.
6. In case of a suicide KO, honor the game's result unless it results in sudden death.
7. If the game goes to sudden death, either through a suicide KO or through a timeout in which both players were tied in percentage, play a rematch on the same stage, using the same rules except that each player begins with a 100% handicap. If this game ends the same way, move up to a 200% handicap and reduce the timer to two minutes. If THAT game goes to time, either player may choose to forfeit the set to the other. If neither does, both are DQ'd and their place in the bracket becomes a bye.
--------------------------------------------------------
EXTRA:

1. TOs should follow any rules required by the venue, such as not allowing outside food and drink.
2. It is recommended that TOs disallow alcohol, tobacco, and the like inside the venue if the venue doesn't ban them already. Remember that some of your players are probably under eighteen and may not be allowed to use or possess these substances.
3. To all involved: go to tournaments at your own risk. You are solely responsible for making sure your property is not lost or stolen.[/collapse]

DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN

Basically I just collected all my pet rules and ideas and consolidated them into one ruleset. Needs proofreading. Did I miss anything important?

Point of interest: the sudden death rule is really wierd. Basically, if players reach the last clause of that rule, they can't possibly NOT be trying to delay the tournament and therefore one of them had better step aside. Double-negatives aside, I'm taking suggestions on improvement on that. Also, thoughts on stalling?

EDIT for Tesh:

Random doesn't matter, people feel that the croc is too strong of a hazard. Though I feel the fact that its extremely predictable, easily SDIed makes it a minor issue. The water adds an interesting element to an otherwise boringly symmetric stage. Characters with poor recoveries can avoid an edgeguarding situation with an otherwise useless tactic (fast fall airdodge).

I have seen a DK up b under the main part of the stage over and over, but its not something he would be able to do against characters like MK. Some characters would only be able to hit him by sealing their own fates. Its funny how similar that situation would be to the homing attack stall debate. Its only viable on 1 stage and vs certain characters, so perhaps fd should be banned if japes is banned. We can't ban the repeated use of a B move as stalling right?

InCom, BSP, Espy, help me out here. Perhaps we have something?
Under the main part of the stage? No character should have trouble recovering from farther than the left side where the croc appears. Drop under, DJ, attack, land in water, go to left ledge, repeat. Shouldn't be too bad. I must be missing something. Also, LGL?
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
*finds picture*
*labels picture*
*rejoins conversation*


Because DK's Up B stops all momentum when it starts, he doesn't lose any "ground" if he moves against the current over and over. What I am talking about is using Up B starting near the left blast zone and moving through area B, landing back in the water.

Now some characters (viable ones even) could have some serious trouble getting a hitbox down that low without landing in the water (sealing their doom). Not everyone can do a rising aerial that will hit below them far enough to touch someone in the water. Compare Falco using a double jump dair to MK using a double jump dair.

(I am well aware that MOST characters can put a hitbox with hitstun in area B without dying, but lets consider the possibilities)

If DK stays in area B, safe from the hitbox in area B with a stock lead(will likely only take hoop damage), isn't that the same as Sonic using Homing attack over and over under FD against Falco or Olimar?

He will never have to grab the ledge to continue doing this for 8 minutes.

Sure you could use a "swim time" rule here, but that could backfire here if a Falco or MK plans to camp out here after forcing an opponent into the water once.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
The legal stagelist is as follows:
Can't you just have every stage legal?

I mean, I doubt Hanenbow is broken in Snake dittos.

It is recommended that pencil and paper be kept near each setup to record stage striking.
Unnecessary imo, unless you frequently play against grandmas with dementia.

In a regular bracket match, players strike four stages each, in a 1-2-2-1-1-2-2-1 fashion.
Seeing how unimportant the order of striking is with the first few stages, this could be changed to 1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2 for simplicity and speed if necessary.

1. 1 Stock
2. 3 Minute Timer
3. Items: Food is turned on. All other items are turned off. Frequency is set to medium.
I'm still iffy about random food... I don't like that it essentially adds a second way to trip into the game, but I can definitely see the benefits.

5. If a game goes to time, the player with a greater remaining precentage wins. If percentage is tied, see Rule #7.
6. In case of a suicide KO, honor the game's result unless it results in sudden death.
7. If the game goes to sudden death, either through a suicide KO or through a timeout in which both players were tied in percentage, play a rematch on the same stage, using the same rules except that each player begins with a 100% handicap. If this game ends the same way, move up to a 200% handicap and reduce the timer to two minutes. If THAT game goes to time, either player may choose to forfeit the set to the other. If neither does, both are DQ'd and their place in the bracket becomes a bye.
I like this.

----------

No one will ever use this rule-set :c

Sorry that your effort went to waste, but yeah, it's too different and doesn't give any impression of "officialism" like the Unity ruleset does.
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
end of rule 7 is horrible imo. if this is losers bracket, why wouldnt i just drag my opponent down with me? You might as well just move on to super sudden death at that point, at least it will give u a winner. its a super rare situation, but you dont want to have the possibility there for a stupid stupid outcome
 

Ghostbone

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2010
Messages
4,665
Location
Australia
Yea go to sudden death and ban grabbing the ledge, It's better than both players basically being DQ'd.....
 

BSP

Smash Legend
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
10,246
Location
Louisiana
Random doesn't matter, people feel that the croc is too strong of a hazard. Though I feel the fact that its extremely predictable, easily SDIed makes it a minor issue. The water adds an interesting element to an otherwise boringly symmetric stage. Characters with poor recoveries can avoid an edgeguarding situation with an otherwise useless tactic (fast fall airdodge).

I have seen a DK up b under the main part of the stage over and over, but its not something he would be able to do against characters like MK. Some characters would only be able to hit him by sealing their own fates. Its funny how similar that situation would be to the homing attack stall debate. Its only viable on 1 stage and vs certain characters, so perhaps fd should be banned if japes is banned. We can't ban the repeated use of a B move as stalling right?

InCom, BSP, Espy, help me out here. Perhaps we have something?
I doubt it would happen in tournament, but if it did, japes would probably get the banhammer. The community generally seems to have a pragmatic approach with stages, so if japes causes a lot of gay play, it'll go eventually.

Better question: is two stage bans out of the question?
 
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
10,050
If THAT game goes to time, either player may choose to forfeit the set to the other. If neither does, both are DQ'd and their place in the bracket becomes a bye.
I'll kick my opponent in the face with boots before surrendering my spot in the tournament over a draw.

Just sayin'


*finds picture*
*labels picture*
*rejoins conversation*


Because DK's Up B stops all momentum when it starts, he doesn't lose any "ground" if he moves against the current over and over. What I am talking about is using Up B starting near the left blast zone and moving through area B, landing back in the water.

Now some characters (viable ones even) could have some serious trouble getting a hitbox down that low without landing in the water (sealing their doom). Not everyone can do a rising aerial that will hit below them far enough to touch someone in the water. Compare Falco using a double jump dair to MK using a double jump dair.

(I am well aware that MOST characters can put a hitbox with hitstun in area B without dying, but lets consider the possibilities)

If DK stays in area B, safe from the hitbox in area B with a stock lead(will likely only take hoop damage), isn't that the same as Sonic using Homing attack over and over under FD against Falco or Olimar?

He will never have to grab the ledge to continue doing this for 8 minutes.

Sure you could use a "swim time" rule here, but that could backfire here if a Falco or MK plans to camp out here after forcing an opponent into the water once.
After reading this post, I decided to pop in Brawl and try this out, to see how this thing looks in gameplay.

Bottom line: This is not broken at all.

I'm gonna write a nice explanation, but it's not directed at you, it's directed at the argument itself.

1) The area that DK has to work with in both sections of the map are really really small-- too small to be able to do this safely for more than a minute tops.

For starters, circles D and E in this picture are misleading in size. Circle D should be an oval that horizontally stretches from the middle of the left platform to the left pillar on the middle platform. Circle E should be about that same size, but to the right of the level. Now, notice how if that were to happen, it would overlap the ovals next to them (B and C). It limits their space.

Now lets focus on ovals B and C.

With oval B, your timing and spacing has to be consistently really good in order to space around the klap trap. If you don't jump out in time, you're as good as dead. If you drop your UpB in the wrong place, you're also as good as dead.

With oval C, you have a bit more room to stall with DK, and you have a bit of leniency if you mess up (the river will just drag you back, but not instantly to a blast line). This is a double edged sword for DK. It's good because he has more room to mess up, and it's bad because his opponents have more room to mess up as well.

Speaking of hitting DK, that leads me to my next point, since all this time, I've been assuming that there is no other character on the stage.

2) DK is so easy to hit, that it's actually laughable.

You acknowledge this, but I want to touch up on it.

Anyone that can grab on to the ledge, drop down, do a quick aerial that busts through the UpB, and jump back to the ledge can counter the stalling. DK will almost always be going under the ledges of either the left or right platforms. In order to hit him, it's just a matter of dropping straight down from the ledge (as in, you don't even have to move horizontally), double jumping, doing a quick aerial, and grabbing the ledge.

You used Falco in your example, so I tried this out in the game with him. Falco can grab the left most ledge, double jump at the appropriate height, Bair or Dair, and grab the ledge again without even using UpB. Just for fun, I tried this as Ganon, and even he could reach DK on the left side and safely make it back up.

That's about it for now.

TL;DR
It's hard for DK to time it consistently around the klap traps and around the blast zones.
It's not hard at all to land an attack on DK and recover safely.
A lot of other factors coupled in together makes this a horribly unsafe strategy to stall with.
DK will probably kill himself without any interaction from the opponent.


The reason why DK is so easy to hit is because he's a really big target, and the platforms are fairly low to the water. This combination hurts DK because the space his enemy actually has to traverse is smaller than what it seems on paper. When DK uses UpB, he slowly moves upward, which is even worse for him.
 
Joined
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Vinyl Scratch's Party Bungalo
NNID
Budget_Player
<3 <3 <3

Twinkie for the logical win!

EDIT: oh yeah another DK trick. Cargo throw->spike in the water. Basically, jump into the water with your opponent in the cargo throw. You hit the water first, recover faster, and can guaranteed a dair spike.
 

Life

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
5,264
Location
Grieving No Longer
Can't you just have every stage legal?

I mean, I doubt Hanenbow is broken in Snake dittos.
Let's have Temple legal then. You can just ban it, after all./sarcasm
Unnecessary imo, unless you frequently play against grandmas with dementia.
In a finals match, where each player has to keep track of six counterpicks and know which ones they've used and which ones the opponent has used, I figure it's helpful.
Seeing how unimportant the order of striking is with the first few stages, this could be changed to 1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2 for simplicity and speed if necessary.
No, striking is actually more important with the first few. Say you are stage-restrictivist (because conservative and liberal have political connotations) and hate the last six or so stages on that list. If you strike them all, your opponent strikes your best stages and you're left at a disadvantage. If you strike your worst stages, your opponent can strike the other "normal" stages, take you to a "ghey" stage, and own you there because "it's ghey". Stupid line of logic, but a good chunk of the community would take it.

If time becomes a problem, I could switch it to "2-3-1-1-1-1...".
I'm still iffy about random food... I don't like that it essentially adds a second way to trip into the game, but I can definitely see the benefits.
One-stock food is half the point of the ruleset (the other being the stage striking), lol. I think that not needing a LGL makes it worth it.
I like this.
Tesh doesn't :c
No one will ever use this rule-set :c

Sorry that your effort went to waste, but yeah, it's too different and doesn't give any impression of "officialism" like the Unity ruleset does.
1. Don't be so pessimistic. I'm not acting like everyone needs to adopt this now, haha. It's a consolidation of basically everything I argue for.

2. re: "officialism": That's why I asked for proofreading :awesome:

what happens if you get to the very last clause of the sudden death rule in a winners bracket match? are both players immediately removed from the tourney or do they both occupy the same losers bracket spot?
Hm, good question. I need to think on this.

end of rule 7 is horrible imo. if this is losers bracket, why wouldnt i just drag my opponent down with me? You might as well just move on to super sudden death at that point, at least it will give u a winner. its a super rare situation, but you dont want to have the possibility there for a stupid stupid outcome
Think of it this way: at 200% handicap, what are the chances that neither you nor your opponent are going to approach for two full minutes? Especially given that one good approach spells game? The only reason not to approach is the food, which doesn't spawn quickly enough that you and your opponent won't be fighting over it. Basically, if you don't end the game at 200%, you and your opponent can't possibly be doing anything BUT trying to disrupt the tourney. (I'll probably raise the timer back to three minutes, though, just to be sure.)

Also, the only way to play Sudden Death correctly is to ban grabbing the ledge, as ghostbone said. Not always easy to enforce, and also less competitive than something like RPS.

Taking suggestions on a better Sudden Death rule.
 

T-block

B2B TST
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
11,841
Location
Edmonton, AB, Canada
Yeah, the Sudden Death rule is not a good one. I could easily see the match going to time if the 200% is reached. In most matchups, at those percents, approaching is basically suicide.

Stage selection rule is cool. What is the order for CP selection? Have you considered allowing the pool of CPs to be more than the number of games? Like... four CPs each for a bo7? Are players only allowed to select from their own pool?

WHY is Pictochat not legal when Yoshi's Island is? We're doing bo7/bo13 one stock here... randomness does not have as big of an effect on the overall result of the set. And if you tell me that now this randomness can decide an entire game, I'm going to say that YI could very well decide an entire game as well.
 

Life

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
5,264
Location
Grieving No Longer
Yeah, the Sudden Death rule is not a good one. I could easily see the match going to time if the 200% is reached. In most matchups, at those percents, approaching is basically suicide.

Stage selection rule is cool. What is the order for CP selection? Have you considered allowing the pool of CPs to be more than the number of games? Like... four CPs each for a bo7? Are players only allowed to select from their own pool?

WHY is Pictochat not legal when Yoshi's Island is? We're doing bo7/bo13 one stock here... randomness does not have as big of an effect on the overall result of the set. And if you tell me that now this randomness can decide an entire game, I'm going to say that YI could very well decide an entire game as well.
1. Again, if you have something better for SD, let me know.

2. Oooh, CP selection order. Nice catch. *edits text doc*

3. CP pool being more than the number of games... I hadn't thought of that. The thing is that part of the reason stage striking is done that way is to make counterpicks more predictable (meaning no sudden pocket Climbers on FD or pocket MK on Brinstar). I was considering allowing the counterpick pools to overlap, but that would throw off striking numbers... I'm thinking a "no" on this. Notice how the combined CP pools take up, like, half the legal stage list.

4. Using opponent's CP pool... hm, this could be important in dittos, and matches like MK-GnW where stages such as FD are suddenly of much different importance. I'm not really sure what the implications would be. Anyone?

5. Picto is banned because we need an odd number of stages and it's probably the one both open and restrictive advocates would be most OK with getting rid of. Is there a stage that should be legalized alongside it, or (less ideally) banned and replaced by it? I only see, like, Onett (walkoff/wall camping is less of a problem with food), maybe Skyworld (it's a VERY big MK stage, so IDK), GHZ (walkoff camping is terrible under OSF), maybe Corneria (fin camping is somewhat countered by food) as viable additions, off the top of my head. And probably the first stage to go if I were to start banning more would be LM since the food doesn't help its camping as much as it does camping on other stages.

Also, another catch: this ruleset doesn't have doubles rules. I'm not sure about the implications of OSF on doubles play. I think we could just use the same list we've been using, with relevant changes (team attack on, possibly a higher item frequency?).

EDIT: I'm thinking about adding a 10% handicap so food isn't wasted at the beginning of the match and so that one player can't unilaterally stall at 0% to draw out the set. Thoughts?
 

T-block

B2B TST
Joined
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Messages
11,841
Location
Edmonton, AB, Canada
10% handicap is fine imo... I don't see any problems.

Mario Circuit + Pictochat ^_^

I would say no to using opponent's pool, but I'd have to think more about it.
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
I'll kick my opponent in the face with boots before surrendering my spot in the tournament over a draw.

Just sayin'




After reading this post, I decided to pop in Brawl and try this out, to see how this thing looks in gameplay.

Bottom line: This is not broken at all.

I'm gonna write a nice explanation, but it's not directed at you, it's directed at the argument itself.

1) The area that DK has to work with in both sections of the map are really really small-- too small to be able to do this safely for more than a minute tops.

For starters, circles D and E in this picture are misleading in size. Circle D should be an oval that horizontally stretches from the middle of the left platform to the left pillar on the middle platform. Circle E should be about that same size, but to the right of the level. Now, notice how if that were to happen, it would overlap the ovals next to them (B and C). It limits their space.

Now lets focus on ovals B and C.

With oval B, your timing and spacing has to be consistently really good in order to space around the klap trap. If you don't jump out in time, you're as good as dead. If you drop your UpB in the wrong place, you're also as good as dead.

With oval C, you have a bit more room to stall with DK, and you have a bit of leniency if you mess up (the river will just drag you back, but not instantly to a blast line). This is a double edged sword for DK. It's good because he has more room to mess up, and it's bad because his opponents have more room to mess up as well.

Speaking of hitting DK, that leads me to my next point, since all this time, I've been assuming that there is no other character on the stage.

2) DK is so easy to hit, that it's actually laughable.

You acknowledge this, but I want to touch up on it.

Anyone that can grab on to the ledge, drop down, do a quick aerial that busts through the UpB, and jump back to the ledge can counter the stalling. DK will almost always be going under the ledges of either the left or right platforms. In order to hit him, it's just a matter of dropping straight down from the ledge (as in, you don't even have to move horizontally), double jumping, doing a quick aerial, and grabbing the ledge.

You used Falco in your example, so I tried this out in the game with him. Falco can grab the left most ledge, double jump at the appropriate height, Bair or Dair, and grab the ledge again without even using UpB. Just for fun, I tried this as Ganon, and even he could reach DK on the left side and safely make it back up.

That's about it for now.

TL;DR
It's hard for DK to time it consistently around the klap traps and around the blast zones.
It's not hard at all to land an attack on DK and recover safely.
A lot of other factors coupled in together makes this a horribly unsafe strategy to stall with.
DK will probably kill himself without any interaction from the opponent.


The reason why DK is so easy to hit is because he's a really big target, and the platforms are fairly low to the water. This combination hurts DK because the space his enemy actually has to traverse is smaller than what it seems on paper. When DK uses UpB, he slowly moves upward, which is even worse for him.
I don't know if you are doing it as close to the blast zone as you can. As far as being difficult to pull of consistently enough to be 100% perfect for stalling, the same can be said for perfect planking and doing IC cg til 999 for 8 minutes. If its allowed,there is a chance someone will learn how to do it to make for an easy counterpick.

I'm aware that most "good" characters can get hitstun at DK and force him above or below the surface of the water.
 

Life

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10% handicap is fine imo... I don't see any problems.

Mario Circuit + Pictochat ^_^

I would say no to using opponent's pool, but I'd have to think more about it.
Circuit... I could see that working, actually. I kinda wanna see the implications of OSF on walkoff camping. Is it no longer overcentralizing? Or can the opponent stay just far enough away to avoid taking percent? Walkoffs are pretty much the only thing wrong with Circuit and GHZ (checkpoint is good but not overcentralizing, and still loses to food), if I am correct.

Also, re: the handicap. What if it was optional? "Both players start with a 10% handicap, but each player may choose to reduce their opponent's handicap to 0%". Reason: percent-based chaingrabs.

Also forgot Gentleman's Clause. *adds to text file*
 
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I don't know if you are doing it as close to the blast zone as you can.
On the left side, if DK wants to be perfectly safe from the Klap Trap, he can't go under the platform. Why? The Klap Trap covers two spots in that same pit, one coming from under the pillar reaching the middle of the pit, and one coming from the center of the pit, reaching under the entire left platform. If DK wanted to do the water stalling trick on the left side, the only remaining space he can use is from right under the ledge on the left platform to the left blastline. That space is JUST enough for DK to do the stalling technique.

On the right side, there is more space for DK to stall. The amount of space gained though is not that much though. Space for DK will still feel restricted, even with the added extra space. If DK were to land as close to the right blastline as he could, DK would still get pushed back far enough to be easily accessible from the right platform. When I say that, I mean that he can UpB again just in front of the right ledge.

I'm currently making a video of it, so I'll show you guys what the deal is. I don't have a 2nd player fighting against me though since I'm only one person in this house.


As far as being difficult to pull of consistently enough to be 100% perfect for stalling, the same can be said for perfect planking and doing IC cg til 999 for 8 minutes. If its allowed,there is a chance someone will learn how to do it to make for an easy counterpick.
The thing with DK's river camping is that the amount of space he has to do it is very limited, and it's actually quite difficult to contain your button presses within the safe zone. It's very easy to mess up, and unlike PPlanking and IC's chaingrabs, if you mess up, the price will almost always be instant death. Bottom line, even if you're able to do it perfectly for like 8 minutes, you can't deny that overall it's very hard to do, easy to mess up, and incredibly risky to perform.

I'm aware that most "good" characters can get hitstun at DK and force him above or below the surface of the water.
I'm convinced that the majority of the cast can deal with this safely. Honestly, I think that once you consider all aspects of this technique, DK's water camping is a high risk low reward technique, and that if DK really wanted to stay safe while stalling for time, water camping wouldn't be his best option.
 

Tarmogoyf

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10% handicap is fine imo... I don't see any problems.
It's not so much a flaw with the rule itself, so much as there isn't a benefit to having it, and adding rules for no reason is just over complicating things.

Also, re: the handicap. What if it was optional? "Both players start with a 10% handicap, but each player may choose to reduce their opponent's handicap to 0%". Reason: percent-based chaingrabs.
So, there isn't a handicap? If your opponent has a percent based chaingrab, they don't allow you to have a handicap, thus defeating the rule in the first place.

And 10% isn't enough. I'd say allow up to 30 or something.
 

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k, I'm kinda upset now.

There's another national this Summer, and this is the ruleset (least, the most important parts of it):
-10 minute matches
-Tijuana's -lame- Stagelist
-It says nothing about timeouts. I think they said they'd be solved by damage.
-In the event of a Sudden Death (except by time) SD will be played (no ledgegrabs allowed). If TO consider it right, they'll play a tiebreak instead (4 minutes, 1 stock). If a draw happens again, same procedure is made. "In order to save time, I'd recommend to use the SD by itself or, alternatively, DQ both players if TO consider their actions goofy and/or inappropiate".
-Lots of "fair play" stuff.

Discuss.
 
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Why in God's name would they put a no grabbing the ledge at all rule on SD? That's just sooooo wrong to me on so many levels. I know what they are trying to accomplish, but I honestly think that their solution for it is just so..................


so.....................





Ugh, I need help here.




On the bright side, this water camping video is coming along quite nicely. :)
 

Life

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That Sudden Death rule is worse than mine <.< Geez, TO bias soooooo bad.

Tarmo, the handicap is there because without it, you could hypothetically stall/pplank at 0% and draw every game, which at least frustrates your opponent and stalls the tournament, and at worst could result in abuse of the Sudden Death rule. (It also makes food slightly more powerful, since you'll almost never be at 0% where food is useless.) And reread the option bit, I think you're misunderstanding it.

Since some food spawns do heal high amounts, I might raise it to 20%.
 

Tarmogoyf

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Tarmo, the handicap is there because without it, you could hypothetically stall/pplank at 0% and draw every game, which at least frustrates your opponent and stalls the tournament, and at worst could result in abuse of the Sudden Death rule. (It also makes food slightly more powerful, since you'll almost never be at 0% where food is useless.) And reread the option bit, I think you're misunderstanding it.

Since some food spawns do heal high amounts, I might raise it to 20%.
"each player may reduce their opponents handicap to 0"

Basically, If I'm (insert character w/ chaingrab at 0%), and my opponent iis a character that gets Cged by that character, My opponents can set themselves a handicap to prevent that. All good, but: "each player may reduce their opponents handicap to 0"

If I'm the chaingrabber, why would I give my opponent that handicap?

Basically, remove the opponents ability to reduce their opponent's handicap.

And again, why would you'r opponent want to Stall/Pplank at 0%? There isn't any benefit to it, so the rule is there basically to prevent people from being douches.
 

Life

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"each player may reduce their opponents handicap to 0"

Basically, If I'm (insert character w/ chaingrab at 0%), and my opponent iis a character that gets Cged by that character, My opponents can set themselves a handicap to prevent that. All good, but: "each player may reduce their opponents handicap to 0"

If I'm the chaingrabber, why would I give my opponent that handicap?

Basically, remove the opponents ability to reduce their opponent's handicap.
Your opponent decides if you have a 10% handicap or not. You decide if your opponent has a 10% handicap or not. I can't tell if we're on the same page or not. <_< Are you saying that's a bad thing? I'm not seeing why.

And again, why would you'r opponent want to Stall/Pplank at 0%? There isn't any benefit to it, so the rule is there basically to prevent people from being douches.
Pretty much. It's anti-griefing. Say you're a mid-level player who happens to be good friends with A||y, and second round you face M2K. You have no chance of winning, but you can stall forever to try to break M2K's patience (good luck lol), or more importantly invoke the tiebreaker rule to force him out. Alternatively, you might stall to the last few seconds and try to, effectively, OHKO your opponent just before time. That's incredibly high risk-high reward, but if you're playing someone that hopelessly outclasses you, wouldn't it be the best option nearly always?

I might just cut the whole thing due to KISS logic at this point <.<

Also, any qualms with invoking TO discretion to fix the tiebreaker rule? (100% handicap rematch, then, in the case that that ties, it's up to the TO to determine the winner) I hate to pass the buck that way, but I'm not perfect...
 

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Your opponent decides if you have a 10% handicap or not. You decide if your opponent has a 10% handicap or not. I can't tell if we're on the same page or not. <_< Are you saying that's a bad thing? I'm not seeing why.
Oh, this was your intent. This is much better. Setting your opponent a handicap makes sense. Before, at least the way you worded it, I thought that the rule wouldn't do anything, since you set your own, then the opponent could just say "lol no", rather than the opponent setting it up themselves.

I'm mostly fine with this, although 20% is better IMO.

Pretty much. It's anti-griefing. Say you're a mid-level player who happens to be good friends with A||y, and second round you face M2K. You have no chance of winning, but you can stall forever to try to break M2K's patience (good luck lol), or more importantly invoke the tiebreaker rule to force him out. Alternatively, you might stall to the last few seconds and try to, effectively, OHKO your opponent just before time. That's incredibly high risk-high reward, but if you're playing someone that hopelessly outclasses you, wouldn't it be the best option nearly always?
The problem is that you're putting a rule in when it's not warranted. Like, in the situation you showed, how often will that actually come up?And how much does it harm the tourney? We shouldn't be adding in any new rules unless there is no other choice.

Also, with a decent timeout rule, it shouldn't even matter :ohwell:
 
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Otherwise you can plank during it and the bombs won't hit you.

So matches will go on indefinitely.
I already knew that, I'm just baffled as to why they would pick THAT solution.

I know what they are trying to accomplish, but I honestly think that their solution for it is just so..................


so.....................





Ugh, I need help here.
 

Life

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@Tijuana ruleset: Much easier to have a 1-stock 3-minute rematch at really-high handicap if we're going to do it sudden-death style. But then, with all the other ridiculousness... At least it looks like they got rid of air time. (unless you left that out)

Tarmo: hence why I've been asking for a replacement time-out rule in pretty much every post....
 

Tesh

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Going to 100% first is more biased than going straight to 300%. Some character have kill options at 100, most have it at 200% (but some might still struggle to land the right thing), but 300% puts everyone on near even ground of "next hit wins" if you look past some weak dash attacks and such.

There are other options though. Forcing a change of scenery for the next match is also a good way to fix that. If someone is abusing a certain feature of the stage to stall (3 minute match on RC vs MK) it won't be possible if you amend DSR to disallow the stage you timed out on. If you CP the stage and the match times out with equal percents, you could disable the stage AS WELL as the opponent's ban and they have to re CP. If the best you can do on your best available CP is go dead even, then its just too bad for you.
 

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I already knew that, I'm just baffled as to why they would pick THAT solution.
Because there's no other way to balance Sudden Death?

IDK it's a pretty crappy timeout solution but games have to end eventually and if the rematch ends in a tie then I can see why they'd make you go to Sudden Death..
 

Life

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Speaking of timing out on specific stages, could a perfect draw be resolved depending on whose CP it was? That still leaves Game 1, but it's a relatively simple way to solve the later games. And if "change of scenery" helps, why not just declare perfect timeouts a draw, go through the rest of the games, and if nobody has won four games yet, replay the starter until a winner emerges?

Scenario1: Game 1 goes to time on a perfect draw (same %+stock). (tiebreaker round here, if you want one. Assuming it perfect draws,) Game 1 is a draw. Continue with the set. One player wins three games. Go back to the Game 1 stage and play it again.

Scenario2: One of the counterpicks goes to a perfect draw. Should the winner be based on who CP'd to the stage? Or should we follow Scenario1, declare that game a draw, and then come back to the stage once someone's at 3 games?
 

Tesh

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You could declare it a win for both players. DSR will prevent them from going back unless they both agree to it. If they REALLY both agree to going back to a stage that is preventing a winner, something is up. Just let the person who CPed this stage, CP again.

MK vs Olimar, Oli bans brinstar, MK times out on RC. Brinstar and RC are now disabled, MK must go to frigate or delfino or something now.
 

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I actually really like that idea. A time out meaning a new stage is selected. by whoever CP'd the stage that timed out.

What if it was Game 1, should they strike again, switching the starter that was used for another? If so, which?
 

Tesh

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Game 1....that is a tough one. If we disable the stage it timed out on, you are left with an even number of stages now. If you allow them to strike again, it could end up on the same stage. The person who wasn't camping super hard might want a salty rematch. And since it was the "mutual" agreement stage, even if one person camped it out hard, you can't objectively say " you picked this stage, you get one less strike this time".

Perhaps this is why current rulesets don't have a plan for the same timeout happening twice in a row.
 

Life

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So.

"If a game ends in a time-out, the player with the [stock, then the] percentage advantage wins."
"If a game ends in Sudden Death via suicide KO, or a time-out in which [stocks and] percentages are tied, the game is treated as a win by both players. The player who last counterpicked counterpicks again, or if the draw occurred in Game 1, _____________________"

Brackets are for non-OSF rulesets.

Question though, besides the blank bit. A hypothetical set is tied at 3-3. The last game ends in a perfect draw. Now what?
 

Tesh

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u play another game, just like tennis, you gotta wind by a certain amount
 
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