Grim's LGL arguing thread

Grim Tuesday · Sep 20, 2011

^This is very important to note.

Everyone views planking as low risk:high reward, but anyone who is good at punishing can leap on the first mistake a planker makes and it'll often lead to a KO. Most plankers have very linear, gimpable recoveries.

Again, MK is the exception to this >_> What a ****ing surprise.

theunabletable · Sep 20, 2011

Back to LGLs though. I think that at this point, it should've been obvious that not only is the LGL a bad rule, it's also a rule that currently isn't working, and no matter how many changes we make to it, it'll never work.

It's not working?

Okay you can make your hypothetical arguments all you want about whether it's fair to have it, but I am going to need solid proof of LGLs failing at what they were put in place for. Because from everything I've seen, that is completely incorrect.

Trying to see why we should cater towards higher level players.......
I mean really, they're higher level players, they should be able to adapt.

You can take the high ground and claim to do so on principle if you'd like, that doesn't change whether it's healthy for the community.

(since planking is beatable, you can just time f-smashes properly >.> You don't have to jump off the stage to try to beast it like Rich did)

I don't think this works for the same reason against MK's planking. And I also think DK can just up B like usual, and the initial hitbox will beat it.

If he doesn't want to go to a tournament where he can be planked he shouldn't go to a tournament where there's no LGL, but he did knowing full well what could result, and then complained when that did result >.>

He knew full well that he might get planked by a DK? Is that what you're telling me?

If all the top players just refused to go to tournaments without LGLs or with rules changed that they didn't like we wouldn't have to worry about these "tragedies"

Yep, you're right. We probably won't have to worry about it again, since Sin and Whobo, I haven't seen a single LGL-less tournament, and there won't be a major like that for a loooong time.

EDIT: Actually something I'd like to add. To those of you saying we should just learn to beat it, how many of you support adding Mario Bros to our stagelist, and have the same sentiments regarding an LGL as you do Mario Bros? I know Grim Tuesday does to some extent, but what about everyone else?

SaveMeJebus · Sep 21, 2011

Grim Tuesday said:
Jebus, my post was not saying that planking isn't broken just because it isn't 100% win.

You are a ****ing ****** who cannot comprehend basic concepts such as the one above.

Get out of my thread.

Planking and walk off camping are both beatable. One mistake while planking or walk off camping can cost you the match. I don't see how they are that different from each other.

Budget Player Cadet_ · Sep 21, 2011

You know what's interesting? Similar posting from Alien Vision got him room banned from user blogs. Permanently. Just sayin', there may be a precedent for this kind of thing... Teran, any words on the subject (regarding Jebus, specifically)?

Alien Vision · Sep 21, 2011

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
Similar posting from Alien Vision got him room banned from user blogs. Permanently. Just sayin'

Don't make me laugh. :242:

WindMajor · Sep 21, 2011

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
You know what's interesting? Similar posting from Alien Vision got him room banned from user blogs. Permanently. Just sayin', there may be a precedent for this kind of thing... Teran, any words on the subject (regarding Jebus, specifically)?

We can't divulge things like this, sorry buddy.

Grim Tuesday · Sep 21, 2011

theunabletable said:
I don't think this works for the same reason against MK's planking. And I also think DK can just up B like usual, and the initial hitbox will beat it.

Then you also think wrong. I haven't watched the match in a while, but I'm pretty sure Rich hits Will with a forward smash in game 3, 2nd stock.

He knew full well that he might get planked by a DK? Is that what you're telling me?

Yes. DK's planking wasn't some new strat devised by Will. Rich knew that the tactic existed, he knew he might have to play against Will and he knew the tactic was legal.

EDIT: Actually something I'd like to add. To those of you saying we should just learn to beat it, how many of you support adding Mario Bros to our stagelist, and have the same sentiments regarding an LGL as you do Mario Bros? I know Grim Tuesday does to some extent, but what about everyone else?

SaveMeJebus said:
Planking and walk off camping are both beatable. One mistake while planking or walk off camping can cost you the match. I don't see how they are that different from each other.

I believe almost every stage should be legal, just for clarification.

Ghostbone · Sep 21, 2011

theunabletable said:
I don't think this works for the same reason against MK's planking. And I also think DK can just up B like usual, and the initial hitbox will beat it.

Olimar can mix-up his timing which will put the DK off, and if DK doesn't get it right he'll get hit. I also believe Olimar can d-tilt the vulnerability frames of DK's planking, and can even dair on-stage to hit DK.
This all causes DK to have to change his timing throughout, otherwise he'll get hit.
While technically DK can avoid everything Olimar can do, since Olimar can mix-up his options the DK will mess up his timing, and Olimar is completely safe during the whole thing.

He knew full well that he might get planked by a DK? Is that what you're telling me?

He knew that it was legal, and that it could happen to him, yes.
Unless he was being ignorant, which is silly.

Yep, you're right. We probably won't have to worry about it again, since Sin and Whobo, I haven't seen a single LGL-less tournament, and there won't be a major like that for a loooong time.

Mmmhmm, I'll deal with rules that must exist for the sake of the community, and the LGL may be one of them.

But I still don't view things such as an Olimar getting planked at a tourney planking was legal or RAIN losing on Brinstar when Brinstar was legal tragedies for the community, since they knew about the rules beforehand and could have chosen not to go if they didn't want to take the risk.
If the whole community does this, TOs will have no choice but to implement those rules.

If the lack of a LGL is like a liberal stagelist, in that unless you're offering MLG prizes nobody will show up, then I'd obviously recommend TOs to have a LGL.

Teran · Sep 21, 2011

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
You know what's interesting? Similar posting from Alien Vision got him room banned from user blogs. Permanently. Just sayin', there may be a precedent for this kind of thing... Teran, any words on the subject (regarding Jebus, specifically)?

Why am I being dragged into this? o.o

Judo777 · Sep 21, 2011

SaveMeJebus said:
Planking and walk off camping are both beatable. One mistake while planking or walk off camping can cost you the match. I don't see how they are that different from each other.

Too bad the primary difference between planking and walk off camping is that when combating walk off planking you get to combat your opponent on even footing in a neutral position. When combating planking you are forced to combat it from one specific angle, while in the air, while the opponent is constantly getting more usable invincibility. And the planker (well MK anyway) can make it so that if you happen to get any usable invincibility you can't attack him with it.

But yes they are certainly similar.................??????????????? What?

popsofctown · Sep 21, 2011

Let's take one thing at a time. It's an LGL thread isn't it.

SaveMeJebus · Sep 21, 2011

Judo777 said:
Too bad the primary difference between planking and walk off camping is that when combating walk off planking you get to combat your opponent on even footing in a neutral position. When combating planking you are forced to combat it from one specific angle, while in the air, while the opponent is constantly getting more usable invincibility. And the planker (well MK anyway) can make it so that if you happen to get any usable invincibility you can't attack him with it.

But yes they are certainly similar.................??????????????? What?

So you agree with me?

B.A.M. · Sep 21, 2011

^^^^ da bess. Seriously though half the people here dont even know what they are talking about when it comes to planking. Gdubs planking can get edgehogged and owned; i do all the time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3gO6w_5eyo heres an example from Kprime,and if you place an aerial properly, then that means a stage spike.

Same with Marth; Marth has barely invincibility on DS, you dont even need ledge invincibility you could just run off and aerial at the right time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJN3qDwwSQk#t=44s

Only MK has a truly flawless planking. The funny thing is that you cant buffer it; you have to perfect frame it yourself. you can grab the edge, in which then MK could opt to AD back onto the stage or something but you get an invincible aerial or something. Also you have to consider while being on the ledge vs MK is heavily in his favor ( goes for anyone really) you both are in transition states ( one to the ledge, one to the edge) . So its really not as horrendous as people make it seem, and coupled with other options there actually could be blossoming metagame in that scenario itself.

What do people do instead? ***** and moan that its broken. I mean people complain about ROB's PLANKING or PITS. Are you kidding me? Are you aware of any frame data? People quickly dismiss these things as gay and dont even try to figure these things out. I remember testing with DEHF stuff Oli could do vs DK's planking. And there were something things we found with the little time invested into it. People need to stop just giving up and johning. Take off the stupid LGL; then see what character actually needs to be banned. If people invested the amount of time they did breaking down Snake's recovery and set that to other characters, people would realize it aint melee but these things can ALL be punished for the most part. People are crying about positions that are could mean an early stock for the planker IF PEOPLE KNEW WHAT TO DO.

tl;dr : You should feel ashamed of yourself and your education system for allowing such literacy weakness.

SaveMeJebus · Sep 21, 2011

I'm pretty sure the same thing can be said about walk off camping

Ripple · Sep 22, 2011

DEAD SERIOUS POST

if jebus doesn't reply to an argument when he quotes you, strawmans, or is completely off topic in his posts.

it is your duty to report him. I've been told to do so by certain mods and you can help out too

Exceladon City · Sep 22, 2011

@Jebus: How have you not been lobotomized yet?

Walk-off camping =/= planking. Every LEGAL stage with walk-offs have transitions. You counter camp until the transitions happen. But you wouldn't know that because you're immune to logic.

SaveMeJebus · Sep 22, 2011

Oreo (Excel) said:
@Jebus: How have you not been lobotomized yet?

Walk-off camping =/= planking. Every LEGAL stage with walk-offs have transitions. You counter camp until the transitions happen. But you wouldn't know that because you're immune to logic.

I am talking about the non legal stages with permanent walk offs and I know it does not = it. Both of them are low risk high reward and they give a huge advantage t the player who does it

Exceladon City · Sep 22, 2011

SaveMeJebus said:
I am talking about the non legal stages with permanent walk offs.

WHY?!?!? That has absolutely nothing to do with the metagame. None.

Jebus y?

I know it does not = it.

Why compare them then? They aren't even similar...in the least.

Both of them are low risk high reward and they give a huge advantage t the player who does it.

I am talking about the non legal stages with permanent walk offs.

As opposed to stages that are in fact legal and where planking can happen at anytime throughout the game?

Jebus,

I hate you and I think you should be banned. You are an idiot and I hate your posts. There is no room on this forum nor in my life to properly describe how much I hate you...go diaf.

SaveMeJebus · Sep 22, 2011

Yes it does. There is a reason they are banned

Exceladon City · Sep 22, 2011

y?

y?

I quit.

Grim Tuesday · Sep 22, 2011

It's funny because what Jebus was saying actually did make sense.

He was comparing low risk/high reward walk-off camping to low risk/high reward planking, claiming that because we banned the former, we should ban the latter.

Of course this is still stupid, but not for the reason you were thinking, Excel.

-LzR- · Sep 22, 2011

Fine, you convinced me. Next time I won't use a LGL and see if anything happens.

Exceladon City · Sep 22, 2011

What does walk-off camping have to do with an LGL?

Explain it to me Jebus. I am far too blind to see it.

"Grim's LGL arguing thread"

Is what I read.

Not

"Grim's How Long Can You Stand At A Blastzone arguing thread"

popsofctown · Sep 22, 2011

He's making a comparison. It's valid, although he's beating around the bush and being sketch about it.

Akaku94 · Sep 22, 2011

I would be much more inclined to believe Jebus than Oreo currently, which is saying a lot, since I'm usually the polar opposite of Jebus...

The similarities b/t walkoff camping and ledge stalling are pretty obvious: simple tactic, high reward, abusable by certain characters, but not completely broken. The major difference is that planking is not a problem for anyone but MK, but walkoff camping completely breaks certain mus if I remember correctly. Additionally, planking is impossible to get rid of, but walkoff camping is pretty easily removed (banning the few stages that have perma-walkoff edges)

B.A.M. · Sep 22, 2011

Oreo is that seriously that hard to comprehend? Dude come on man use your freakin mind. This is ridiculously ironic that you are expressing such hatred to Jebus in a scenario where he is making some sort of sense. Straight Fail.

SaveMeJebus · Sep 22, 2011

Akaku94 said:
I would be much more inclined to believe Jebus than Oreo currently, which is saying a lot, since I'm usually the polar opposite of Jebus...

The similarities b/t walkoff camping and ledge stalling are pretty obvious: simple tactic, high reward, abusable by certain characters, but not completely broken. The major difference is that planking is not a problem for anyone but MK, but walkoff camping completely breaks certain mus if I remember correctly. Additionally, planking is impossible to get rid of, but walkoff camping is pretty easily removed (banning the few stages that have perma-walkoff edges)

It's a problem when player choose to stay on the ledge for the entire match. Certain characters risk getting gimped if they try to challenge the opponent when he is planking.

Exceladon City · Sep 22, 2011

B.A.M. said:
Oreo is that seriously that hard to comprehend? Dude come on man use your freakin mind. This is ridiculously ironic that you are expressing such hatred to Jebus in a scenario where he is making some sort of sense. Straight Fail.

I love how I namesearch to this.

Okay, so I understand the fact that he's trying to prove that they (walk-off camping and planking) are beatable. Problem is when you include MK into the planking, it's virtually unbeatable because of the risk vs reward. Sure, if they goof, you get a stock but the chances of you catching them on that goof up is unlikely because you have to get to where MK is and put yourself in a horrific position. You don't have to worry about instantly losing a stock from challenging DK and GW. Sure, you're gonna take some damage but it's nothing close to the death that will follow from challenging MK. He can AND will follow you offstage and kill you. Unlike DK and GW. Pit and ROB don't have planking that is even close to a problem.

You bring up walk-off camping and it's not even a legit tactic. There are 3 stages that have walk offs and they are transitional as I have mentioned before. Rainbow Cruise, Castle Siege and Delfino Plaza. You beat that by not approaching. It's transparent; a gimmick. If you get walked off, you ****ed up. Period. It's not even on the same level as planking.

There is that a better argument?

Ghostbone · Sep 23, 2011

SaveMeJebus said:
It's a problem when player choose to stay on the ledge for the entire match. Certain characters risk getting gimped if they try to challenge the opponent when he is planking.

Just because approaching is risky doesn't make camping bannable....
Especially when the camping we're talking about is dangerous for the camper.

And obviously it's a problem if they can stay on the ledge for the entire match.
The point is they can't, because the opponent can get them off if they know what they're doing.
And that's for characters like G&W, but when we consider Samus, what's wrong with her spending her time on the ledge, pressuring the opponent from afar?

Oreo (Excel) said:
You bring up walk-off camping and it's not even a legit tactic. There are 3 stages that have walk offs and they are transitional as I have mentioned before. Rainbow Cruise, Castle Siege and Delfino Plaza. You beat that by not approaching. It's transparent; a gimmick. If you get walked off, you ****ed up. Period. It's not even on the same level as planking.

There is that a better argument?

I think you're missing the point of his argument.
His first point is that planking and walk-off camping are both similarly powerful.
Secondly, we effectively banned walk-off camping by banning all the stages with permanent walk-offs, so we should do the same with planking, by implementing a LGL.

You can disagree with the premises but the conclusion is still valid.

Grim Tuesday · Sep 23, 2011

Jigglypuff, Samus, R.O.B., Yoshi, etc... all have legitimate ledge-games which aren't over-powered, gay, planking positions, they are just good ways of camping and are completely beatable by out-mindgaming them. A good planker will beat a bad plankee and vice versa, no problems here.

Other forms of planking like Mr. Game & Watch/Marth's planking which are basically only used to stall could be considered gay and they are annoying to beat are still beatable with correct timing and shouldn't really be treated any differently to similar tactics.

Meta Knight's planking is in a league of it's own. His planking game is so strong that he can counter ANY approach leading to every match-up being in his favour by +2 at the very least and making A LOT of characters unviable. The solution to this is not trying to limit MK's ledge-game, in the same way that we don't try and fix banned stages by adding surgical rules. The correct solution, going by our precedent rules, is to ban Meta Knight.

TeeVee · Sep 23, 2011

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=107276

lgl is ****ing awful

Exceladon City · Sep 23, 2011

ghostbone said:
Just because approaching is risky doesn't make camping bannable....
Especially when the camping we're talking about is dangerous for the camper.

I think you're missing the point of his argument.
His first point is that planking and walk-off camping are both similarly powerful.
Secondly, we effectively banned walk-off camping by banning all the stages with permanent walk-offs, so we should do the same with planking, by implementing a LGL.

You can disagree with the premises but the conclusion is still valid.

The only reason we have an LGL is because of this

.

/

do not have planking on the same level as

I'm fine with an LGL as long as

is still around because if he starts planking, we're screwed. Without

, the LGL is pointless because all the other planking isn't anywhere near as bad.

He's trying to draw parallels to one somewhat problematic tactic with another that was only strong because static walk-offs on BANNED stages. You know and I know that the only stages with walk-offs are not permanent.

Planking, however is going to happen on ANY stage with a ledge. Ledges are apart of almost every stage save for Rumble Falls, Mario Circuit, Summit and Mushroomy Kingdom.

At the end of the day, it's not planking, it's

. That's really the root of this problem.

WindMajor · Sep 23, 2011

TeeVee said:
http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=107276

lgl is ****ing awful

I agree with your post.

I only read through the first page, but something that's worth mentioning is that RB is referencing the brokenness of DK planking with ONE tournament. Nobody had prepared a counter for his planking, so it's obviously gonna be very effective during that first tournament because everyone is new to it. Now that time has flown by, we have counters for it, so it's highly likely that Will won't be able to do that to the same effect in his next tourney.

Ghostbone · Sep 23, 2011

Twinkie said:
I agree with your post.

I only read through the first page, but something that's worth mentioning is that RB is referencing the brokenness of DK planking with ONE tournament. Nobody had prepared a counter for his planking, so it's obviously gonna be very effective during that first tournament because everyone is new to it. Now that time has flown by, we have counters for it, so it's highly likely that Will won't be able to do that to the same effect in his next tourney.

That and RB was complaining that a 6 frame window is impossible to hit....

That's easily enough time to hit DK out of planking >.>

WindMajor · Sep 23, 2011

It's funny though because the same technique was enough to hit M2K out of his planking, back at Dabuz vs. M2K in KTAR5.

lol

-LzR- · Sep 26, 2011

I am currently trying to persuade Finnish players to remove LGL. So far they have been interested in trying a tournament without it and I used Grims and other peoples arguments there so they really haven't had anything to say against it that I couldn't have countered with ease

Grim Tuesday · Sep 26, 2011

I love you, -LzR-.

SaveMeJebus · Sep 30, 2011

Planking should be limited because it is low risk high reward and it benefits the player who has the lead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJaLEjFCuZE&t=2m30s

look what happens when ADHD tries to stop him from planking. This is proof that it may work in theory, but it is a lot harder to stop in reality

Flayl · Sep 30, 2011

He messed up, Will's UpB didn't even hit him so you can't blame DK's planking for that.

SaveMeJebus · Sep 30, 2011

Flayl said:
He messed up, Will's UpB didn't even hit him so you can't blame DK's planking for that.

It doesn't have to hit him. The fact that he was on the ledge when ADHD went for that risky attack means that he got that kill because of planking. You mess up, you're dead. He wouldn't have to go for those risks if he knew that Will would eventually have to get back on stage.

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