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Meta Knight Officially Banned!

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Dr. Tuen

Dr. Tuen

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DeLux said:
Let's just say I envision a Smash Lab project where I combine Tuen and John #s on the same team ;)


But it isn't to say that we didn't factor in the data. We did. Or at the very least I know I did. Perhaps my best answer is that the definition of stastically significant is different for each URC member.
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Herk. I really wish I finished the Overcentralization analysis in time now :-/. It most contently turned up significant, I'd bet on it.
 
Nysyarc

Nysyarc

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Alien Vision said:
Does he really get slaughtered by the lowest characters as much as people say he does? I seem to recall recently that a Ganondorf won a tournament somehow because there wasn't any MK's, or something along those lines.

I mean like, just a tiny miniscule boost. Does Zelda really hand his *** to him like people state? What about C.Falcon? Ganondorf's incredible strength and technical chasing could really put those two in bad positions IMO. So how exactly is Ganondorf the worst is what bugs me. Lol.
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It's not just about his one-on-ones with characters like Zelda and Captain Falcon (which are the two I believe are debatable as to whether they're even or whatnot). I secondary Ganondorf and used him in the WHOBO 3 Low Tier bracket, in which I defeated Fujin's Zelda.

However, Ganondorf gets creamed a lot harder by high tiers than Falcon and Zelda do. He has a lot more hard counters against him (thus allowing more players to have a character they can CP against him) and a lot worse ones. That's what makes him the worst character more than anything.

:248:
 
popsofctown

popsofctown

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DeLux said:
lol it's pretty implicit

the rule denotes "Metaknight is banned"
The rule connotes "Metaknight is not useable for play."
It doesn't connote "metaknight is sometimes useable to be played if you draw a 1/37 lot to play him" by any means.

If we wanted the rule to connote that, we would have made the rule "Metaknight cannot be selected on the character select screen."
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That's not the interpretation I'm concerned about. The interpretation I'm concerned about is disallowing random completely. If you pick random, you know you have a 1/37 chance of violating the rule. If people go to the rules and they don't see that corner case addressed, they think, maybe no one is ever supposed to be allowed to pick random in the first place, maybe that's not considered legitimate, since the rules don't address it or acknowledge it. So player X is forced to play a selected character instead of mulliganing through the random system and using it like a d37 rather than an actual character selection, which to me is rather counterintuitive.

If I was a TO and had the current rules as printed, I would probably eventually settle on the mulligan but I would have to reread the rules twice to make sure I wasn't missing something because of the vagueness. That shouldn't be so.



I do happen to think "Metaknight cannot be selected on the character select screen" is a much better rule since you're nerfing a "character" that's barely above Link for merely conceptual reasons, but that's totally separate from having a clear rule.
 
WindMajor

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If you select random and get Metaknight, you should quit the game and pick random again, but keep all the other settings the same, lol.
 
Alien Vision

Alien Vision

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Nysyarc said:
However, Ganondorf gets creamed a lot harder by high tiers than Falcon and Zelda do. He has a lot more hard counters against him (thus allowing more players to have a character they can CP against him) and a lot worse ones. That's what makes him the worst character more than anything.

:248:
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I see now. I guess I forgot to look at it at one more angle. Thanks for clearing that up. I like your whole tyrannitar style by the way.

10 tyrannitars (I can't spell the name. Sue me.)
 
A

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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seriously though can we bring back some of these stages that were banned because of MK and then actually have somewhat of a healthy metagame.
 
Alien Vision

Alien Vision

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popsofctown said:
That's not the interpretation I'm concerned about. The interpretation I'm concerned about is disallowing random completely. If you pick random, you know you have a 1/37 chance of violating the rule. If people go to the rules and they don't see that corner case addressed, they think, maybe no one is ever supposed to be allowed to pick random in the first place, maybe that's not considered legitimate, since the rules don't address it or acknowledge it. So player X is forced to play a selected character instead of mulliganing through the random system and using it like a d37 rather than an actual character selection, which to me is rather counterintuitive.

If I was a TO and had the current rules as printed, I would probably eventually settle on the mulligan but I would have to reread the rules twice to make sure I wasn't missing something because of the vagueness. That shouldn't be so.



I do happen to think "Metaknight cannot be selected on the character select screen" is a much better rule since you're nerfing a "character" that's barely above Link for conceptual reasons, but that's totally separate from having a clear rule.
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I second this. ^ Seriously, stop over-complicating what this guy is saying. Read it slowly..
 
OmegaXXII

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-Ran said:
For those that were wondering, it took three years, six months, twenty-three days, and seventeen hours for Meta Knight to be banned.
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Wow, what an interesting fact, at least the people with this goal managed to succeed right?

:phone:
 
Bizkit047

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AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:
seriously though can we bring back some of these stages that were banned because of MK and then actually have somewhat of a healthy metagame.
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As I stated earlier in the thread, I don't know if the community will accept any more stages. It's hard enough for the community to accept PS2, most want it gone because it isn't in the norm for older stage lists. If people can't accept PS2, I feel like people would drop Unity if like Japes or Norfair were added.
 
DeLux

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We will look into the random select thing for our next update.

As usual, we appreciate your concerns and will be doing due diligence in the matter.
 
L

link2702

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mm....well i think i need to seriously go look on my states tournament and community threads again, see if they are even gonna follow the mk ban, if they do i'll start showing up again, and possibly even maybe attend a national someday(long as its not TOO far off)
 
Max?

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I'm not reading this whole thread, but all I gotta say is ABOUT GODDAMN TIME. It's been clear that ***** was too good from the beginning.
 
GimR

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Not to be a ****, but Europe needs to get out of here with "we didn't need to ban MK" You don't need to ban MK because your MK players are not very good. Orion got 2nd at a national beating Leon in LF then got like 65th at a New Jersey regional. He's one of your best MKs and he's only good, not great. Same with Japan, your MKs just don't compare to ours who have brought the character to the absolute brokenness he can be.
 
Nysyarc

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Main Ike. :ike:

Now that MK is gone you might as well join in on the sympathy-lacking-crusade that's gonna take place. Otherwise you're on the receiving end of it.
 
Bizkit047

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God-is-my-Rock said:
Not to be a ****, but Europe needs to get out of here with "we didn't need to ban MK" You don't need to ban MK because your MK players are not very good. Orion got 2nd at a national beating Leon in LF then got like 65th at a New Jersey regional. He's one of your best MKs and he's only good, not great. Same with Japan, your MKs just don't compare to ours who have brought the character to the absolute brokenness he can be.
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I feel like quoting this from now on.

However, in Orion's defense, I'm pretty sure he just quit in losers after losing in winners. I don't know how much higher he'd have placed, but probably not top 20 with how stacked losers was at that tourney.
 
popsofctown

popsofctown

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Nysyarc said:
Main Ike. :ike:

Now that MK is gone you might as well join in on the sympathy-lacking-crusade that's gonna take place. Otherwise you're on the receiving end of it.
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Could you explain what you mean here? I just didn't understand what you're saying in this post, not challenging or anything.


Twinkie said:
Just stick to Toon Link he's awesome. :toonlink:
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I love to play him but there's a Toon Link player in my area that's ten times better than me and it just makes me emo to even play Toon Link when he's around.
 
Browny

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B.A.M. said:
Reposting because I didnt know if you got a chance to read this in its entirety Bizkit. Although it doesnt really matter at this point. Im definitely disappointed by the reasonings Ive seen thus far. However theres really nothing that can be done about that. At least the community is happy. It just saddens me; not because I think pro-ban has a few things that potentially could argue, but the fact that the dominant reasoning for the majority of pro ban seems to be made on two things:

1. Emotion rather than concrete arguments
2. A horrendous representation of John #s data.

It is good to see the community lively, though im sure a ton of these newer players will probably end up quitting after awhile.
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Hey BAM, im pretty pro ban yet I agree with you about the so called 'data'. Its extremely biased and doesnt actually show anything. Its cool stats, but it shows how much MK is actually broken, as stats showing how many times he dthrows vs fthrows in a match. However think of it as a lesser of 2 evils. You cant deny the community hatred for this character. It has endured for over 3 years and it gets worse every single day. Where do you personally draw the line? How many people have to want him gone, until it is fair to remove him?

Without the players wanting to play the game, you have NOTHING. Brawl could be the most balanced fighting game, but what good is a game if it has no hype, people hate it and simply dont play? You need to focus on the bigger picture here. There is one simple fact regarding MK. No one will ever prove he is broken. Brawl has FAR too many variables and if you cite other fighting games your argument is void instantly. Brawl doesnt have easy to start 0-death combos. So all you are left with to decide whether to ban or not, is what the community wants. It is very possible, and in fact the exact case, that Metaknight is TOO good for competitive play and damages the scene to the point where he NEEDS to be banned, while not being broken.

You absolutely must remember that Brawl is NOTHING like other fighters, the ban criteria are completely unique and catered towards our ruleset. The BRC has no obligation to care what other fighting games do, they can invent their own rules to ban a character.
 
WindMajor

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popsofctown said:
I love to play him but there's a Toon Link player in my area that's ten times better than me and it just makes me emo to even play Toon Link when he's around.
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Same situation here, but you just gotta keep trying. Ask that guy to help.
 
Nysyarc

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rm88

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I just came to say this makes me happy.
 
popsofctown

popsofctown

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Twinkie said:
Same situation here, but you just gotta keep trying. Ask that guy to help.
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I happen to be ticked at that guy right now.


Plus I can Marth or D3 and have better matchups anyway. The only thing I like more than comboing a projectile into an aerial is winning.
 
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